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- Status
If you claim that it is under Holy Tradition that one may find infallible teaching, then I ask this: to which infallible teaching from Holy Tradition should I adhere? Other than your say-so, or that of any other Catholic, how can it be known to a simple catholic of the Augsburg confession that Rome is right, and the east is wrong?
Jon
I don’t see the conflict, unless you are speaking of a necessity to enumerate all sins, which scripture tells us is impossible. I guess I need a bit more of an explanation of what you mean.
Jon
B
Bill_Pick
Guest
The Church is the body of all believe in Jesus Christ but the First Church is the Cathloic Church and has been for over 2000 years we did not have any prostestants
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zrs6v4
Guest
My initial response to this question is that the biblical example of the “One True Church” or the “Bride” is the Invisible body of believers rather than a physical church here on earth. Scripture says that all churches have goats and sheep making them not be the perfect church. Imperfect world = imperfect church due to sin.
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tqualey
Guest
Hi, JonNC
I guess it is me who is not seeing what you don’t see as a conflict … so… let me try it this way
Article XI of the AC “Lutherans believe that private absolution should remain in the church, though a believer does not need to enumerate all of his sins as it is impossible for a man to enumerate all of the sins for which he should be forgiven.” (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Augsburg_confession )
Lutherans do not have any activity like the Catholic Sacrament of Penance, where a person approaches the Priest, in the Person of Christ, and articulates his sins (enumerates them, if you will ) and then prays for God’s forgiveness. To my knowledge, Lutherans do not interact with their ministers in this manner.
Yet, Chris gives the Apostles the authority to forgive (or, not forgive) sin as recorded in John 20: 19-24.
So, as I see it: there is a clear scriptural basis for confessing one’s sins to another human being (a Catholic priest) yet this is not acknowledged - in fact another approach is given -in the AC (at least as I read it).
Please clarify…
God bless,
I guess it is me who is not seeing what you don’t see as a conflict … so… let me try it this way
Here we have the statement on private absolution:
Article XI of the AC “Lutherans believe that private absolution should remain in the church, though a believer does not need to enumerate all of his sins as it is impossible for a man to enumerate all of the sins for which he should be forgiven.” (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Augsburg_confession )
Lutherans do not have any activity like the Catholic Sacrament of Penance, where a person approaches the Priest, in the Person of Christ, and articulates his sins (enumerates them, if you will ) and then prays for God’s forgiveness. To my knowledge, Lutherans do not interact with their ministers in this manner.
Yet, Chris gives the Apostles the authority to forgive (or, not forgive) sin as recorded in John 20: 19-24.
So, as I see it: there is a clear scriptural basis for confessing one’s sins to another human being (a Catholic priest) yet this is not acknowledged - in fact another approach is given -in the AC (at least as I read it).
Please clarify…
God bless,
J
Javl
Guest
If the Catholic Church is not the one true Church, then what was it that Christ founded and built on Peter? Here again SS is causing an erroneous reading and interpretation of the bible. The Catholic Church is THE CHURCH that was built upon Peter. It alone
was made the deposit of all truths ( and Traditions ) by Jesus and it alone has the full authority to interpret scripture. This authority is from Jesus directly when He gave Peter and the Apostles the power to “bind and loose”. This authority did not cease with the
death of the Apostles, but was handed down to their successors ( by the laying on of hands ) through the power of the Holy Spirit. As for those that have split from, or have
left, the church, they have reliqueshed their power and authority of and for interpretation of scripture to their own detriment.
PAX DOMINI
Shalom Aleichem
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tqualey
Guest
Hi, LutheranDK,
I find the picture in incredibly poor taste.
**19
And I consecrate myself for them, so that they also may be consecrated in truth.
20
"I pray not only for them, but also for those who will believe in me through their word,
21
so that they may all be one, as you, Father, are in me and I in you, that they also may be in us, that the world may believe that you sent me.
22
And I have given them the glory you gave me, so that they may be one, as we are one,
23
I in them and you in me, that they may be brought to perfection as one, that the world may know that you sent me, and that you loved them even as you loved me. **
Here is a suggestion" maybe that picture needs to just be sent back to the files … or, better yet, just deleted.
God bless
I find the picture in incredibly poor taste.
Would you have a similar post in response to Christ’s prayer in John 17:19-23
**19
And I consecrate myself for them, so that they also may be consecrated in truth.
20
"I pray not only for them, but also for those who will believe in me through their word,
21
so that they may all be one, as you, Father, are in me and I in you, that they also may be in us, that the world may believe that you sent me.
22
And I have given them the glory you gave me, so that they may be one, as we are one,
23
I in them and you in me, that they may be brought to perfection as one, that the world may know that you sent me, and that you loved them even as you loved me. **
Here is a suggestion" maybe that picture needs to just be sent back to the files … or, better yet, just deleted.
God bless
T
tqualey
Guest
Hi, JonNC
The question is not saying that these folks are wrong (of course, there is no argument on that! ) The question resting on this thread deals with SS. My hypothesis is that everyone claims they have the guidance of the Holy Spirit and we have all of these obvious divergences.
Now, if this divergence (some Protestant denominations claiming homosexuality is wrong, some claim it is acceptable - and this is based on SS) is not addressed - there will be more divergences (e.g., abortion, infanticide, stem cell research, etc)
Don’t you see this as at least a possible logical outcome of anyone and everyone interpreting scripture as they will - and then claiming the SS is their real answer for whatever they choose to do. In a word: license.
God bless
The question is not saying that these folks are wrong (of course, there is no argument on that!
) The question resting on this thread deals with SS. My hypothesis is that everyone claims they have the guidance of the Holy Spirit and we have all of these obvious divergences.Not to put too fine a point on it, ( christianresearchnetwork.com/?p=5225 and onenewsnow.com/Church/Default.aspx?id=431178 ) but it looks like the Lutherans (at least this branch) are following in the path of the Anglicans.
Now, if this divergence (some Protestant denominations claiming homosexuality is wrong, some claim it is acceptable - and this is based on SS) is not addressed - there will be more divergences (e.g., abortion, infanticide, stem cell research, etc)
Don’t you see this as at least a possible logical outcome of anyone and everyone interpreting scripture as they will - and then claiming the SS is their real answer for whatever they choose to do. In a word: license.
God bless
P
poetryforjesus
Guest
One finds the infallible church by following Apostolic Succession. The Catholic Church is the one founded by Christ and is led by the successor of St. Peter; therefore she has the authority under the guidance of the Holy Spirit to teach both Holy Scriptures and Holy Traditions.
Without the One and Apostolic Church, we wouldn’t have anything: no scriptures, no traditions, certainly not legitimate ones.
L
LutheranDK
Guest
Compare the situation to the liberal RC priests, bishops and scholars who voice some of the same opinions.
The fact that they’re RC priests, bishops and scholars, does not change the fact that what they’re saying is contrary to the teachings of the RC Church.
Same deal. These new appeasements of the PC establishment does not give the lie to Sola Scriptura. It is a betrayal of it, because something else than the Scriptures (PC and zeitgeist) has become the final authority.
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LutheranDK
Guest
When you hear people rant on like the OP did enough times, you tend to give him one back. And quite honestly, he deserved it - his rhetorical style (and the logic and cohesion of his reasoning) was quite on par with the producers of the picture.
Now, I do not suggest that the RC church is comparable to Nazi Germany, or the Bishop of Rome to Hitler. I have a great respect for the man as a theologian, and have often wanted to read some of his works.
What I reacted against was the hateful, bitter, arrogant tone of the OP.
In Him
LDK
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LutheranDK
Guest
You did not answer the question. You only gave your say-so, yet again.
Furthermore - the Eastern Churches have retained full Apostolic Succession (episcopal and presbyterial), as has the Swedish Lutheran Church, and the Danish and German Lutheran Churches have retained presbyterial succession.
And let’s not forget the Anglican Church, either…
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tqualey
Guest
Hi, LutheranDK,
Three thoughts:
With everyone that believes in SS saying it is the final authority - and so much of an organized (as opposed to isolated or ‘disorganized’ betrayal of Christ’s commands to the Shepherd to tend and feed the sheep) movement contradicting the clearly written word of God in Bible, yet claiming it to come from the Bible - can any other outcome be honestly expected. Men - not the Bible are really the final deciders … and there in lies the fatal flaw. No? Just look around you.
The second thought is you really do have to get the name right - the name of the Catholic Church is … the Catholic Church, or, if you will, the CC. It is not the Roman Catholic Church or the RCC. Honest. The Pope is the Bishop of Rome and Rome is a diocese located withing the organizational structure of the Catholic Church.
Lord, make me an instrument of Thy peace;
where there is hatred, let me sow love;
where there is injury, pardon;
where there is doubt, faith;
where there is despair, hope;
where there is darkness, light;
and where there is sadness, joy.
O Divine Master,
grant that I may not so much seek to be consoled as to console;
to be understood, as to understand;
to be loved, as to love;
for it is in giving that we receive,
it is in pardoning that we are pardoned,
and it is in dying that we are born to eternal life.
Amen.
st. francis of assisi - 13th century
Three thoughts:
With everyone that believes in SS saying it is the final authority - and so much of an organized (as opposed to isolated or ‘disorganized’ betrayal of Christ’s commands to the Shepherd to tend and feed the sheep) movement contradicting the clearly written word of God in Bible, yet claiming it to come from the Bible - can any other outcome be honestly expected. Men - not the Bible are really the final deciders … and there in lies the fatal flaw. No? Just look around you.
The second thought is you really do have to get the name right - the name of the Catholic Church is … the Catholic Church, or, if you will, the CC. It is not the Roman Catholic Church or the RCC. Honest. The Pope is the Bishop of Rome and Rome is a diocese located withing the organizational structure of the Catholic Church.
The third thought is really more personal. If you want to end hate - then do not add your own measure to the hate that is already out there. This prayer by St. Francis has never been more timely then it is now:
Lord, make me an instrument of Thy peace;
where there is hatred, let me sow love;
where there is injury, pardon;
where there is doubt, faith;
where there is despair, hope;
where there is darkness, light;
and where there is sadness, joy.
O Divine Master,
grant that I may not so much seek to be consoled as to console;
to be understood, as to understand;
to be loved, as to love;
for it is in giving that we receive,
it is in pardoning that we are pardoned,
and it is in dying that we are born to eternal life.
Amen.
st. francis of assisi - 13th century
J
Javl
Guest
The answer has been given to you many times and it is NOT personal say so. Without any malice, I say that your mind set is such that you either refuse to accept the truth or
you are still looking for a way out of your dilema.
Those that have broken with the CC have rejected the authority of Christ, even though the claim is to full Apostolic Succession. Full authority has been given to Christ’s Church by
Him and this authority is in the CC alone. It has been handed down in an unbroken line thru the ages ( even with the events of corrupt Popes and clergy ). Scripture proves this and it cannot be proven otherwise. Many have tried futily and have failed, only to have their eyes opened to the truth and were received into the CC.
PAX DOMINI
Shalom Aleichem
L
LutheranDK
Guest
Once again - say-so’s. I’m supposed to take your word (or the word of the RCC) for it, which gives us a nice example of circular reasoning.The answer has been given to you many times and it is NOT personal say so. Without any malice, I say that your mind set is such that you either refuse to accept the truth or
you are still looking for a way out of your dilema.
Those that have broken with the CC have rejected the authority of Christ, even though the claim is to full Apostolic Succession. Full authority has been given to Christ’s Church by
Him and this authority is in the CC alone. It has been handed down in an unbroken line thru the ages ( even with the events of corrupt Popes and clergy ). Scripture proves this and it cannot be proven otherwise. Many have tried futily and have failed, only to have their eyes opened to the truth and were received into the CC.
PAX DOMINI
Shalom Aleichem
You have presented a lot of statements, a lot of opions (which is fair enough, as this is a debate), but nothing that gives any kind of credence to the claims you make.
D
Dokimas
Guest
If the Catholic Church is not the one true Church, then what was it that Christ founded and built on Peter? Here again SS is causing an erroneous reading and interpretation of the bible. The Catholic Church is THE CHURCH that was built upon Peter. It alone was made the deposit of all truths ( and Traditions ) by Jesus and it alone has the full authority to interpret scripture. This authority is from Jesus directly when He gave Peter and the Apostles the power to “bind and loose”. This authority did not cease with the death of the Apostles, but was handed down to their successors ( by the laying on of hands ) through the power of the Holy Spirit. As for those that have split from, or have left, the church, they have reliqueshed their power and authority of and for interpretation of scripture to their own detriment.
PAX DOMINI
Shalom Aleichem
The Catholic Church says it’s the one true church and that any understanding of the Bible against their belief is wrong … I find that logic suspect.
Jesus didn’t tell Peter to pass on his leadership.
Jesus built His church on what Peter said not on Peter himself. Jesus in the foundation, the Solid Rock upon which He is building His church.
If you look at Acts you’ll see Peter didn’t act as a pope. He wasn’t the overall leader of the church.
Did you know Peter had a wife?
Thank you for your opinion
D
Dokimas
Guest
I think history tells us the Catholic Church started Constintine in the 3rd or 4th century.
B
Bill_Pick
Guest
Please tell us what Peter having a wife has to do with any thing or are you just showing just how little you know about the CC
T
tqualey
Guest
Hi, Dokimas,
It is a lot more then an opinion… so, let me give you some facts and then we will all need to connect the dots.
When Christ told the Apostles to “Do this in memory of me” - (Luke 22:19) - when St. John died in about 100AD - then no one else could do the “this” in that sentence because Christ did not specifically say, “You and your successors are to do this in memory of me.”
I think the bottom line is that at the Last Supper, Christ knew that in less then 24 hours He would be dead. He was not the the Founder of a Law Firm and here were the Twelve Partners eating a meal with Him and He just presented a contract to them for review and signature. Don’t forget, Christ had already given Peter a blank check when He told Peter, “WHATEVER you bind on earth is bound in heaven…” - (Matt 16: 19) Peter had the authority and this has been passed down all the way to Benedict XVI
Bottom line here is also straight forward: Christ is God and Christ set up the organizational structure of the Church He founded on the man, Peter. This loud-mouth, impetituous fisherman was going to represent Christ on earth - and Peter’s Successor was going to do the same thing - all the way to Benedict XVI. God’s Divine Plan has been put into motion from the very first instant of earthly time - and Peter being Rock was right there.
But do not stop there - take a look at Peter’s role: in determining that Judas’ position should be replaced and in determing how the person replacing Judas would be selected - (Acts 1:15-26) - at the First Council of Jerusalem - (Acts 15) - Peter - and NOT James answers the question on circumcision - and, notice, Peter does not refer to scripture. The Holy Spirit guided the group to look to Peter for the answer and that same Holy Spirit provided the answer. Notice, after Peter resolved the matter, no one got up and said, “That’s not right - put it to a vote!” Amazing how the Holy Spirit worked in the hearts of the believers.
God bless
It is a lot more then an opinion… so, let me give you some facts and then we will all need to connect the dots.
Given your stated position, and that you claim a generic “Christian” identification - this is certainly consistent - but, maybe on this list we can go a little further and advance the position.
This is an interesting concept - so, let me see if I understand you correctly: From all eternity, God’s Divine Will was to come to earth, spend 30 years in relative obscurity, have a three-year public ministry where He selects Apostles. Specifically tells Peter to strengthen his brothers after he recovers from denying Christ - (Luke 21: 31-34) - and then specifically tells Peter to feed his lambs - (John 21:15) -and when Peter dies - that is the end of the organization?
When Christ told the Apostles to “Do this in memory of me” - (Luke 22:19) - when St. John died in about 100AD - then no one else could do the “this” in that sentence because Christ did not specifically say, “You and your successors are to do this in memory of me.”
I think the bottom line is that at the Last Supper, Christ knew that in less then 24 hours He would be dead. He was not the the Founder of a Law Firm and here were the Twelve Partners eating a meal with Him and He just presented a contract to them for review and signature. Don’t forget, Christ had already given Peter a blank check when He told Peter, “WHATEVER you bind on earth is bound in heaven…” - (Matt 16: 19) Peter had the authority and this has been passed down all the way to Benedict XVI
As I see it, your real argument is with God the Father - Christ asks the Apostles who do men say that I am - and these guys start stumbling all over the wrong answers. God the Father inspires Peter - and surely this must be considered a significant event to happen - and then for Christ to clearly identify to all what has happened. Now, building on the words of Peter sounds a bit tricky - this is the same Peter that Christ did not pass on His leadership to - and you want Christ’s Church build only on the words of Peter.
Bottom line here is also straight forward: Christ is God and Christ set up the organizational structure of the Church He founded on the man, Peter. This loud-mouth, impetituous fisherman was going to represent Christ on earth - and Peter’s Successor was going to do the same thing - all the way to Benedict XVI. God’s Divine Plan has been put into motion from the very first instant of earthly time - and Peter being Rock was right there.
Please, to understand what is going on, you have to remain in historical context. Peter was the leader of the Apostles - appoointed by Christ (see scriptural references above) Peter was also a fisherman and was living in Jerusalem - and locked in a room for fear of the Jews prior to the Holy Spirit coming. Then although 120 people has received the Holy Spirit - it is Peter (there’s that leadership role again…) who gives the first sermon, who tells 3,000 people they need to repent and be baptized and launches the Catholic Church on its mission to spread the Word of God and work as an instrument of His Grace. Peter was not the leader of Vatican City, did not dress as you have seen the Pope dress or have any of today’s aspects of the Bishop of Rome. This does not take away from Peter or detract from Benedict XVI.
But do not stop there - take a look at Peter’s role: in determining that Judas’ position should be replaced and in determing how the person replacing Judas would be selected - (Acts 1:15-26) - at the First Council of Jerusalem - (Acts 15) - Peter - and NOT James answers the question on circumcision - and, notice, Peter does not refer to scripture. The Holy Spirit guided the group to look to Peter for the answer and that same Holy Spirit provided the answer. Notice, after Peter resolved the matter, no one got up and said, “That’s not right - put it to a vote!” Amazing how the Holy Spirit worked in the hearts of the believers.
You know, he probably did - but, all we really know is that Peter had a Mother-in-Law. Was Peter’s wife alive at the time of Peter’s calliing? No one knows. Were any of the other Apostles married at the time of their calling? We know even less about them. Since there is no definitive answer available this side of heaven - what is your point?
You are more then welcome…
God bless
- Status