Sola Scriptura is Wrong

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Now, now, now.

Just because there is no one standard definition of Sola Scriptura…

It does not give you a license to invent one that absolutely nobody uses and claim that is the definition.

It is quite intellectually dishonest of you to do so, and only casts you in a bad light.

When you resort to techniques such as this, why should anybody give any credence whatsoever to anything that you say.
I’m not defining sola scriptura, I’m describing the consequences. It is not a technique, it is an accurate observation.

As I have already demonstrated, Luther illustrated the consequences quite well:

You tell me what a great fuss the Papists are making because the word alone in not in the text of Paul…say right out to him: ‘Dr. Martin Luther will have it so,’…I will have it so, and I order it to be so, and my will is reason enough. I know very well that the word ‘alone’ is not in the Latin or the Greek text (Stoddard J. Rebuilding a Lost Faith. 1922, pp. 101-102; see also Luther M. Amic. Discussion, 1, 127).
 
I’m not defining sola scriptura, I’m describing the consequences. It is not a technique, it is an accurate observation.

As I have already demonstrated, Luther illustrated the consequences quite well:

You tell me what a great fuss the Papists are making because the word alone in not in the text of Paul…say right out to him: ‘Dr. Martin Luther will have it so,’…I will have it so, and I order it to be so, and my will is reason enough. I know very well that the word ‘alone’ is not in the Latin or the Greek text (Stoddard J. Rebuilding a Lost Faith. 1922, pp. 101-102; see also Luther M. Amic. Discussion, 1, 127).
Brother, you are really fixated on Luther. This cannot be healthy for you. Is he really that important to you, because he’s not to the Reformed believers. I urge you to let go of your hate; it’s not good for you and it doesn’t impact anyone else. Be free, brother, be free.
 
Brother, you are really fixated on Luther. This cannot be healthy for you. Is he really that important to you, because he’s not to the Reformed believers. I urge you to let go of your hate; it’s not good for you and it doesn’t impact anyone else. Be free, brother, be free.
I have no idea why you believe disagreement is hate.

I’m merely pointing out that once you allow individuals to determine what the bible means, then anything goes.

You end up with statements like Luther’s.

We are discussing the reasons that sola scriptura is wrong, right?
 
I’m not defining sola scriptura, I’m describing the consequences. It is not a technique, it is an accurate observation.

As I have already demonstrated, Luther illustrated the consequences quite well:

You tell me what a great fuss the Papists are making because the word alone in not in the text of Paul…say right out to him: ‘Dr. Martin Luther will have it so,’…I will have it so, and I order it to be so, and my will is reason enough. I know very well that the word ‘alone’ is not in the Latin or the Greek text (Stoddard J. Rebuilding a Lost Faith. 1922, pp. 101-102; see also Luther M. Amic. Discussion, 1, 127).
Your statement was
Sola scriptura actually means “whatever I say it means”.
The verb “mean” is the same as “has the definition of” not “has the consequence of”. You should reword your assertion.

Oh by the way, when you assert “has the consequence of” you have to show cause and effect. Your say so is not cause and effect. Showing cause and effect is much more difficult than you think it is.
 
Your statement was

The verb “mean” is the same as “has the definition of” not “has the consequence of”. You should reword your assertion.

Oh by the way, when you assert “has the consequence of” you have to show cause and effect. Your say so is not cause and effect. Showing cause and effect is much more difficult than you think it is.
OK. I was sloppy.

However, I was using it in the colloquial sense, like “Love means never having to say you are sorry”. (not that I believe that!)

I think cause and effect is quite easy to demonstrate here.

Among protestants, there are tens of thousands of opinions as to what the bible says.

Among Catholics, we let the magesterium rule on these issues.

ie. among protestants sola scriptura has come to mean that the bible means “whatever I say it means”.
 
I’m merely pointing out that once you allow individuals to determine what the bible means, then anything goes.
Oh by the way, the article in post 15, explicitely bars the right of individuals to determine what the Bible means. So, you again are creating your own invention of Sola Scriptura and then proceeding to knock it down.

Just saying…

You would help your case if you just stuck to the definition that the person you are talking to agrees is his, instead of being creative and inventing your own.
 
Oh by the way, the article in post 15, explicitely bars the right of individuals to determine what the Bible means. So, you again are creating your own invention of Sola Scriptura and then proceeding to knock it down.

.
I’m not inventing anything. I’m a former protestant and I was a firm believer in sola scriptura, which meant I had many disagreements with other protestants about what the bible was saying. I made up my own mind.
 
I’m not inventing anything. I’m a former protestant and I was a firm believer in sola scriptura, which meant I had many disagreements with other protestants about what the bible was saying. I made up my own mind.
That is not SS; perhaps when you were a non-Catholic you understood it to be, but that does not make it so. I agree there are many “Bible believing churches” where pastors and deacons or elders tell people what Scipture means. That’s not SS, that’s just Solo Scripture - my short-hand for individual interpretation - which I also believe is wrong - we agree there, no need to quote Luther’s opinions on the annointing of the sick with oil or some other non-related Luther quote.
 
That is not SS; perhaps when you were a non-Catholic you understood it to be, but that does not make it so. I agree there are many “Bible believing churches” where pastors and deacons or elders tell people what Scipture means. That’s not SS, that’s just Solo Scripture - my short-hand for individual interpretation - which I also believe is wrong - we agree there, no need to quote Luther’s opinions on the annointing of the sick with oil or some other non-related Luther quote.
I’m sure there are almost as many definitions of sola scriptura as there are interpretations of the bible.

You have your definition, I had mine.

Do you agree that the definition would be different for Calvinists, Baptists, and Pentecostals, for example?
 
That is not SS; perhaps when you were a non-Catholic you understood it to be, but that does not make it so. I agree there are many “Bible believing churches” where pastors and deacons or elders tell people what Scipture means. That’s not SS, that’s just Solo Scripture - my short-hand for individual interpretation - which I also believe is wrong - we agree there, no need to quote Luther’s opinions on the annointing of the sick with oil or some other non-related Luther quote.
Yes, but it IS the fruits of Sola Scriptura.

**The entire problem with this doctrine is that it is not only self-refuting - it allows for everybody to come to their own conclusions about what Scripture says. This leads to the mess we have today with thousands of constantly splintering sects.

My sister’s husband is an Evengelical pastor of his own Church. I have personally seen 3 splinter churches break away from this relatively small congregation. This is not the unity that Jesus fervently prayed for in John 17.
 
Yes, but it IS the fruits of Sola Scriptura.

The entire problem with this doctrine is that it is not only self-refuting - it allows for everybody to come to their own conclusions about what Scripture says. This leads to the mess we have today with thousands of *constantly *splintering sects.

My sister’s husband is an Evengelical pastor of his own Church. I have personally seen 3 splinter churches break away from this relatively small congregation. This is not the unity that Jesus fervently prayed for in John 17.
Or, it could be the fruits of men desiring power over other men, or people listening to myths and fables. It’s wrong, but to pin the blame on a doctrine that defines Scripture as the inerrent word of God and sufficient for the news of the Gospel and above all man-made tradition is a stretch.

If I was to say that I’ve seen a number of Catholics turn away due to the pedophile scandles, does that give me the ability to invalidate anything the Catholic church does? No, it does not. Don’t make the same mistake.

Also, if you’re going to inundate this thread with your usual eye-crushing color/font tricks, let me know. My eyes can’t take it and I’ll just sign off this thread. I have found I have to stay away from your posts due to the abusive use of colors and fonts- they give me a headache. I can’t say as I even know what you post, I just have to skip past it so quickly.
 
Your statement was

The verb “mean” is the same as “has the definition of” not “has the consequence of”. /…/.
I wrote about consequences.
I observed that when catholic say:
  1. I say
  2. I understand sth…
    Protestant say:
  3. Bible say
  4. This is the Word of God…
 
Dear Chosenandcalled

I am not frustrated 🙂 I am sorry you are
SS is not about interpreting the Bible. Not - as in the opposite of “is”. I urge you to re-read some of the posts that have already been made. I understand you would like SS to be about individual interpretation and the defination I have given you rejects that, but it is what it is and trying to make it something else is just frustrating both of us.
I apologize if it is frustrating for you, you know, there the Evil One loves to frudtrate, and I know it is most frustrating for you because of all the following:
give it a read, i dare you 🙂

Sola Scriptura is “Scripture being the only infallible rule for faith and practice” – hence, all “churches” and any “traditions” (today) are fallible.

COROLLARY (and necessary implication) of SS :

The only interpretation of Scripture that is binding on the Christian conscience is that of the individual exegete (assuming normal adult intelligence) since all “churches” and any “traditions” are fallible.

I. SS is UNBIBLICAL

(1) there is no direct teaching of SS in Scripture (OT or NT)

(a) although possibly implied by 2 Tim 3:15-17; 1 Cor 4:6; etc)

(b) denied by 1 Cor 11:2; 2 Thess 2:15; 2 Tim 1:13-14; 2:2; etc)

(2) there is no statement that apostolic oral revelation would cease to be a rule of faith (was argued it has in fact “passed away”)

(3) or at least SS is “non-biblical” since the NT is silent about the “passing away” of the apostolic oral revelation (cf. Matt 24:35; Acts 2:42; 1 Thess 2:13; 1 Pet 1:25; 2 Pet 3:2; etc)

II. SS is UNHISTORICAL

(1) the early Church (1st century) functioned without the NT – this is granted – all special revelation was oral from Christ to His apostles to the early Christians – no written besides OT


(2) even after NT was written the Church functioned without complete NT canon (various books were questioned or not known or not included in some canon lists in the early centuries)

(3) the Church Fathers denied SS – this is challenged by such Protestant apologists as James White and William Webster
**
(4) the Church councils and early Creeds do not mention SS – (“I [We] believe in one holy catholic apostolic Church” rather than “I believe in the one holy Scripture alone”)**

(5) Roman Catholics and Eastern Orthodox (all “ancient” Churches that trace back through apostolic succession) deny SS today

III. SS is ILLOGICAL (or incoherent)

**(1) Scripture alone does not teach “Scripture alone” (see I. above)

(2) Scripture alone can’t tell us what “Scripture” is (NT canon)**

(a) to argue from “fallible knowledge” and historical testimony directly to inspired Scripture is not possible by reason – Protestants must simply accept this “by faith alone”

(b) to argue from “fallible knowledge” and historical testimony to an infallible Church founded by Christ and protected from error by the Holy Spirit according to Christ’s promises – which same Church ultimately decided the canon – THEN to inspired Scripture is reasonable (Catholic solution)

(c) or Scripture is “a fallible collection of infallible books” (R.C. Sproul’s “solution” to incoherency problem – but how does he know these books are inspired if “fallible” canon?)

(3) Scripture alone can’t resolve the differences in OT canon

**(4) Scripture alone – being an inanimate object – can’t make any infallible and binding decisions concerning either canon or any (mis)interpretation – Scripture is simply assumed by definition to be “self-interpreting” and “self-authenticating” without need of any infallible Church – this begs two important questions

(a) How do I know the Bible IS the Word of God?

(b) How do I know MY interpretation of Scripture is correct?**

(5) Scripture alone can’t function as the sole rule of faith for a Christian populace that was entirely illiterate and Bibles were inaccessible before the age of printing (ante 1450 AD)

IV. SS is INCONSISTENT


(1) the Church recognized the NT canon through “tradition” alone and every Protestant today is the beneficiary of that tradition

(2) to argue the “infallibility of God’s special providence” (Eric Svendsen) allowed the Church to recognize the NT canon can’t be limited to just the canon – i.e. the same providence of God should protect the Church in general from officially teaching error since she is guided by the “Spirit of truth” (Jn 16:13)

(3) everyone has a “tradition” (although Protestants insist it is fallible) when interpreting Scripture so the question is which tradition should one use and why?

(4) also inconsistent to attack the beliefs of that very Catholic Church that gave us the Bible – I would argue of course that the Catholic Church of 400 AD is the same Church of 1996 AD

V. SS is IMPROBABLE – follows directly from II. 3) to 5) above

VI. SS is UNWORKABLE (and impractical)


(1) the fact of over 20,000 Protestant denominations and sects in contrast to the unity of faith (Eph 4:5) in the Catholic Church

(2) Scripture alone is not perspicuous enough (cf. 2 Peter 3:16) to resolve major doctrinal disputes or moral teachings

(3) how can the individual Christian know today who is right?

(4) SS implies nobody is bound to any interpretation but their own since all “churches” and any “traditions” are fallible

(5) each individual Christian is fallible but the historic Christian and Catholic solution is the Magisterium that teaches God’s Word infallibly (e.g. in Ecumenical Councils) – does it really work?

Praise be to God,

Peace of Christ
 
I’m sure there are almost as many definitions of sola scriptura as there are interpretations of the bible.

You have your definition, I had mine.

Do you agree that the definition would be different for Calvinists, Baptists, and Pentecostals, for example?
Then you are proceeding to knock down the definition of Sola Scriptura that you held, not the definition of the person that you are talking to,
 
Sola Scriptura is “Scripture being the only infallible rule for faith and practice” – hence, all “churches” and any “traditions” (today) are fallible.

I. SS is UNBIBLICAL
This is much too long to tackle the whole thing. So I will take just one little tiny piece.

So I will work with your definition above. That definition works for me. I might tackle others as I have time.

Logically Sola Scriptura is only UNBIBLICAL if Scripture clearly identifies another rule for faith and/or practice that also is incapable of being incorrect.

I have read Catholic apologetics from Dave Armstrong on and am totally unconvinced that Scripture identifies any other rule of faith and/or practice that is also incapable of being incorrect.

Maybe you will be the first.

But I doubt it.

Oh before you start, there is a big difference between being correct and being incapable of being incorrect.
 
Sola Scriptura is “Scripture being the only infallible rule for faith and practice” – hence, all “churches” and any “traditions” (today) are fallible.

II. SS is UNHISTORICAL

(1) the early Church (1st century) functioned without the NT – this is granted – all special revelation was oral from Christ to His apostles to the early Christians – no written besides OT


(2) even after NT was written the Church functioned without complete NT canon (various books were questioned or not known or not included in some canon lists in the early centuries)

(3) the Church Fathers denied SS – this is challenged by such Protestant apologists as James White and William Webster
**
(4) the Church councils and early Creeds do not mention SS – (“I [We] believe in one holy catholic apostolic Church” rather than “I believe in the one holy Scripture alone”)**

(5) Roman Catholics and Eastern Orthodox (all “ancient” Churches that trace back through apostolic succession) deny SS today
Just to glance at this.

Using the definition supplied.

Sola Scriptura is only unhistorical if it can be shown that the apostles believed themselves to be “incapable of being incorrect”.

This is not the same as "believing themselves to be apostles and possessing the authority of an apostle.

This is a nice little discussion in itself, but I for one do not believe that the apostles believed of themselves that they were “incapable of being incorrect”.

Point 2 does not logically follow from the definition supplied. Neither does point 3 unless you can prove the ECF taught that another source is “incapable of being incorrect” (this is not the same as being authoritative). Points 4 and 5 do not follow from the definition supplied.
 
dear amateurpianist

**
Logically Sola Scriptura is only UNBIBLICAL if Scripture clearly identifies another rule for faith and/or practice that also is incapable of being incorrect.
**

Well then tell me, why was Sola Scriptura (Scripture alone) never practiced in the Bible where is the concept itself ?
I cannot seem to find it in the Bible
Can you please show me? Scripture alone… something like that right?
Please provide.

Here is an example of the “other” rule in which the Church is the incapable of being incorrect.
In 1 Timothy 3:15"the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth"; not scripture.

But you seem to have missed that it is also UNBIBLICAL because:

**(1) there is no direct teaching of SS in Scripture (OT or NT)

(a) although possibly implied by 2 Tim 3:15-17; 1 Cor 4:6; etc)

(b) denied by 1 Cor 11:2; 2 Thess 2:15; 2 Tim 1:13-14; 2:2; etc)

(2) there is no statement that apostolic oral revelation would cease to be a rule of faith (was argued it has in fact “passed away”)

(3) or at least SS is “non-biblical” since the NT is silent about the “passing away” of the apostolic oral revelation (cf. Matt 24:35; Acts 2:42; 1 Thess 2:13; 1 Pet 1:25; 2 Pet 3:2; etc)**

Next:thumbsup:

peace

As for Historical, I think more reading is required for one to understand, it is deep yes, but very solid.
Keep reading! Keep searching, this is great 🙂

Peace!
 
Dear Chosenandcalled

Sola Scriptura is “Scripture being the only infallible rule for faith and practice” – hence, all “churches” and any “traditions” (today) are fallible.

III. SS is ILLOGICAL (or incoherent)

**(1) Scripture alone does not teach “Scripture alone” (see I. above)
**
Neither does Scripture identify any other source that is infallible (incapable of being incorrect).
emseguin;5840577:
(2) Scripture alone can’t tell us what “Scripture” is (NT canon)
That does not logically follow from your definition.
(a) to argue from “fallible knowledge” and historical testimony directly to inspired Scripture is not possible by reason – Protestants must simply accept this “by faith alone”
What is the problem with believing that people who were in themselves capable of being incorrect, by grace provided to them by God got the matter of the canon correct.

It is not necessary to follow a process that is incapable of being incorrect to get results that are correct. That happens all of the time in real life. In fact this is the norm, and infallible processes are the exception.
(c) or Scripture is “a fallible collection of infallible books” (R.C. Sproul’s “solution” to incoherency problem – but how does he know these books are inspired if “fallible” canon?)
I have read that definition and do not like it myself. I think a part of the reason is that any written document does not have the capacity of being infallible. The best that it can be is 100% correct. This is not the same as infallible.

A better definition would be "a correct collection of inspired and inerrant (at least theologically) books’. At least in my mind.
(3) Scripture alone can’t resolve the differences in OT canon
This also does not follow from the definition you supplied.
**(4) Scripture alone – being an inanimate object – can’t make any infallible and binding decisions concerning either canon or any (mis)interpretation – Scripture is simply assumed by definition to be “self-interpreting” and “self-authenticating” without need of any infallible Church – this begs two important questions
**
The definition you supplied says nothing about “self-interpreting” and “self-authenticating”.

There might be other definitions supplied that mention that, but not the one that you are working on.

Anyway I am out of time. So I can’t continue on.

Hey, I don’t believe all definitions of Sola Scriptura out there. It I do believe it (which I think I do), it is in a very nuanced form.

But what I don’t believe in is the slipshod, not-serious approach (filled with strawman arguments) given to this topic by amateur Catholic apologists.
 
dear amateurpianist

Well then tell me, why was Sola Scriptura (Scripture alone) never practiced in the Bible where is the concept itself ?
I cannot seem to find it in the Bible
Can you please show me? Scripture alone… something like that right?
Please provide.
Again the only way in which the assertion “the Bible is the only infallible rule of faith and practice” can logically be Biblically false is if the Bible identifies other rules of faith and practice that are also incapable of being incorrect.

Here is an example of the “other” rule in which the Church is the incapable of being incorrect.
In 1 Timothy 3:15"the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth"; not scripture.
Ah, yes this Scripture that is quoted all of the time by amateur Catholic apologists.

The problem is that this Scripture says nothing about any entity being "incapable of being incorrect.

Anyway, I am absolutely out of time now and can’t get to anything more.
 
Or, it could be the fruits of men desiring power over other men, or people listening to myths and fables. It’s wrong, but to pin the blame on a doctrine that defines Scripture as the inerrent word of God and sufficient for the news of the Gospel and above all man-made tradition is a stretch.

If I was to say that I’ve seen a number of Catholics turn away due to the pedophile scandles, does that give me the ability to invalidate anything the Catholic church does? No, it does not. Don’t make the same mistake.

Also, if you’re going to inundate this thread with your usual eye-crushing color/font tricks, let me know. My eyes can’t take it and I’ll just sign off this thread. I have found I have to stay away from your posts due to the abusive use of colors and fonts- they give me a headache. I can’t say as I even know what you post, I just have to skip past it so quickly.
**GREAT cop-out! **
"I can’t take the colors so I’ll ignore your well-thought-out and seemigly un-answerable argument."

I must say - that’s the first time I’ve heard that one . . .:rolleyes:
**
By the way - Sola Scriptura doesn’t merely define the written word of God as sufficient - it defines it as the SOLE authority - which is a self-refuting proposition.
 
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