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Eden
Guest
Do you know who set the Canon; that is to say, who decided which books were to be included in the New Testament?
Do you believe there are only 321 days until the rapture?
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Do you believe there are only 321 days until the rapture?
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mumof5
Guest
Haha, no, that’s a joke bourne out of another thread ages ago. I really ought to remove it now. No-one knows the day or hour…
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kujo313
Guest
Heavens NO! I simply go back and check the Scriptures. The church I attend is Bible-based and was lived by the disciples of Jesus. “Lived” became traditions of the disciples of Jesus. They broke bread in other’s homes, they healed the sick, preached the Gosple, went to the temple on the Sabbath.
Worshipping other people or idols was not part of their tradition. Even when Jesus ascended into Heaven, they did not build an altar at that very spot. Instead, they went into the temple and worshipped God.
Jesus was born of a virgin, worship God.
Jesus healed the sick, worship God.
Jesus made the blind see, worship God.
Jesus raised Lazerus from the dead, worship God.
Jesus defeated death, worship God.
God, Himself, said He was a jealous God.
Keep your eyes focused on Jesus at the temple you go to. Direct people towards the cross.
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Eden
Guest
Thank goodness for that. I thought you were a little :whacky:
.
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kujo313
Guest
2 Thess 2:15
Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our epistle.
What traditions WAS they taught? What did Paul mean “OUR epistle”??
Read ALL that Paul wrote and you will see one common thing: Jesus.
He did not tell them to “make it up as you go” or to “look to people other than Jesus.”
He always referred to Jesus, period. You should do the same.
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volzcpa
Guest
I believe the following passage is what you are referring to—
Rev 22: 18: I warn every one who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if any one adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book, and if any one takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.
The book being referred to here is “words of the prophecy of this book” and “the book of this prophecy” which would be the book of Revelation.
Also, Moses says similarly in Deuteronomy—
Deut 12:2 “You shall not add to the word which I command you, nor take from it; that you may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.”
Hmmmm
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Eden
Guest
Wouldn’t taking what Paul wrote be learning about Christ through an intermediary? I mean, why did God choose to send the Holy Spirit to write the Word of God through Paul instead of having Jesus write the Word of God directly? Then you would always have avoided anything but a direct line to Christ.
Obviously it is the way of God to use others in our journey to His Son. Prayers to the saints are one way in which we are all linked in the Body of Christ. Why is this so hard to accept when you accept “the middleman” idea with Scripture so readily?
You are completely misunderstanding the role of subordinate mediators and the way in which they always point to Jesus.
As far as Paul and subordinate mediators:
Rom. 15:30 - Paul commands the family of God to pray for him. If we are united together in the one body of Christ, we can help each other.
2 Cor. 1:11 - Paul even suggests that the more prayers and the more people who pray, the merrier! Prayer is even more effective when united with other’s prayers.
2 Cor. 9:14 - Paul says that the earthly saints pray for the Corinthians. They are subordinate mediators in Christ.
2 Cor. 13:7,9 - Paul says the elders pray that the Corinthians may do right and improve. They participate in Christ’s mediation.
Gal. 6:2,10 - Paul charges us to bear one another’s burdens, and to do good to all, especially those in the household of faith.
Eph. 6:18 - Paul commands the family of God to pray for each other.
Eph. 6:19 - Paul commands that the Ephesians pray for him. If there is only one mediator, why would Paul ask for their prayers?
Phil. 1:19 - Paul acknowledges power of Philippians’ earthly intercession. He will be delivered by their prayers and the Holy Spirit.
Col. 1:3 - Paul says that he and the elders pray for the Colossians. They are subordinate mediators in the body of Christ.
Col. 1:9 - Paul says that he and the elders have not ceased to pray for the Colossians, and that, by interceding, they may gain wisdom.
Col. 4:4 - Paul commands the Colossians to pray for the elders of the Church so that God may open a door for the word. Why doesn’t Paul just leave it up to God? Because subordinate mediation is acceptable and pleasing to God, and brings about change in the world. This is as mysterious as the Incarnation, but it is true.
1 Thess. 5:11 - Paul charges us to encourage one another and build one another up, in the body of Christ. We do this as mediators in Christ.
1 Thess. 5:17 - Paul says “pray constantly.” If Jesus’ role as mediator does not apply subordinately to us, why pray at all?
1 Thess. 5:25 - Paul commands the family of God to pray for the elders of the Church. He desires our subordinate mediation.
2 Thess. 1:11 - Paul tells the family of God that he prays for us. We participate in Christ’s mediation because Christ desires this.
2 Thess. 3:1 - Paul asks the Thessalonians to pray for Him, Silvanus and Timothy so that they may be delivered.
1 Tim. 2:1-3 - Paul commands us to pray for all. Paul also states that these prayers are acceptable in the sight of God.
2 Tim. 1:3 – Paul says “I remember you constantly in my prayers.” Philemon 22 - Paul is hoping through Philemon’s intercession that he may be able to be with Philemon.
scripturecatholic.com
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kujo313
Guest
AMEN!! I totally agree with the above. Note that everybody that Paul mentioned was still alive. He didn’t ask for any dead people to pray for him.
Good “tradition” to follow.
Only Jesus defeated death. Only Jesus was resurrected.
So far…!
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Pax
Guest
That’s not all that Satan will do. He knows your weaknesses and while a person may not hear him speak he can defintely touch your imagination. Satan can deceive in numerous ways, and he will go for the point of greatest weakness. His greatest successes are when we don’t think he has anything to do with our thinking and errors.
You may think that you are not vunerable but we all are. Paul warns us in 1 Cor 10:12 by saying, “Therefore let any one who thinks that he stands take heed lest he fall.”
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Eden
Guest
It is interesting that you did not comment on the idea of subordinate mediation. Why did God choose to have Paul write His Word rather than Christ writing it Himself? You stated your great distress at the thought of involving others in your journey to Christ yet you have no problem accepting Paul’s role as a “middle man” for God’s Word.
You can see that is the way of God, to give us all a role in our journey to Christ. That includes the role of Mary. He chose for His Son to go to us through Mary. So, we are also invited to go to His Son through Mary if we desire.
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Eden
Guest
The faith of the Church is that the saints are not really dead, but are fully alive in Jesus Christ, who is life itself (John 11:25; 14:6) and the bread of life who bestows life on all who eat his flesh and drink his blood (John 6:35, 48, 51, 53-56). The saints are alive in heaven because of the life they have received through their faith in Christ Jesus and through their eating of his body and blood.
The book of Revelation shows the saints worshipping God, singing hymns, playing instruments, making requests to Christ to avenge their martyrdom, and offering prayers for the saints on earth (Rev. 4:10, 5:8, 6:9-11).
Because they are alive, we believe that we can go to them to intercede for us with God. We do not need to see apparitions or hear their voices in order to believe they will pray for us in heaven. We trust that the saints will accept our requests for help and will present them to Christ for us.
The Catholic Church has always believed that Jesus Christ is the one mediator between God and man. It is the death and resurrection of Jesus alone by which people are saved.
catholic.com/thisrock/1990/9007chap.asp
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Pax
Guest
Paul never condemns prayer to heavenly saints which by the way is something that the Jews happened to do. Moreover he does say in Eph 6:18 “Pray at all times in the Spirit, with **all ** prayer and supplication.” Paul also says in 1 Tim 2:1, “FIRST OF all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men,”
Paul does not limit prayer and supplication as do you. In fact, give this just a little thought. In the gospels Jesus quotes the scripture saying, “‘I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is not God of the dead, but of the living.”[Matt 22:32] We then see Jesus on the Mount of Transfiguration speaking with Moses and Elijah. Then we are told in the book of Hebrews that we are “surrounded by a great cloud of witnesses.” We are also told in Hebrews 12:22-23 “But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, and to the assembly of the first-born who are enrolled in heaven, and to a judge who is God of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,”
Finally, in James 5:16 that “The prayer of a righteous[just] man has great power in its effects.”
So you have to ask yourself about prayer and intercession, and determine whose prayers will have the greatest effect for you. Will it be your neighbor here on earth that you’ve asked to pray for you or will it be your brother or sister in heaven that are the just men and women made perfect.
Catholics lock arms with you in terms of “the one mediator.” Only the blood of Jesus was spilled for the sins of men. Only Jesus as both God and man could provide expiation, atonement, and redemption for mankind. It is in this sense that there is only one mediator and that one mediator is Jesus. There is subordinate mediation, however, and this mediation is totally dependent upon and made possible by the mediation made by Jesus on the cross.
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DARichards
Guest
This is actually incorrect, Mum…The verse that you are speaking of was written as part of the THE BOOK OF REVELATION only. It was not meant for the entire Scripture. If this were the case, then the entire Protestant Reformation would be condemned for removing the 7 Deuteroncannonical books that remain in the Catholic Bible…
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St.Eric
Guest
You are treading on sladerous territory brother. Please be aware. It is painfully clear that you need to spend some time learing the difference between “infallible” and “impeccable.”
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DARichards
Guest
Kujo,
Your ignorance and arrogance in regard to the Catholic Church is becoming rather annoying.
First of all the priest abuse issue has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH THE TEACHING OF INFALLIBILITY!!!. Please do your research before you make such a claim. The Roman Catholic Church does not claim to be perfect and act in a perfect manner at all times. This is not , I repeat not what infallibility means.
What it does mean is that when the Holy Father, in conjunction with the Magisterium makes a statement in regard to faith or morals (an only in those cases) does the Holy Spirit protect them from teaching in error. It doesn’t even guarantee that they will teach what they need to teach when they need to , it just protects them from making an error.
You still have refused to answer anybody on this question. Don’t dodge, just answer! If you are going to take this stand, then you must declare what interpretation **you ** will accept as correct and why everybody else is wrong. The Catholic Church at least falls back on the teachings of the Church Fathers. What do you fall back on…
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St.Eric
Guest
DARichards is correct. The Bible is not one big book that was put written at one time from Genesis to Revelation. It is a Collection of books from different periods of time. When the book of Revelations was written, there was no bible, the Catholic church had not yet put it together for all of the world to hear the word of God. So, the book of Revelation is referring to itself when making that statement that “no one shall add or take away from this book.”
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Pax
Guest
Who is in favor of worshipping other people or idols? Who does this?
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kujo313
Guest
We really don’t have to go through anybody but Jesus. He is the gate. When you said, “He chose for His Son to go to us through Mary”, you missed the point of Mary. She was meant to be prophecy fulfilled. That’s it.
Don’t you see? Nobody went through Mary to get to Jesus. People walked up to Him. Some pushed their way through to Him. The blind and lame stayed where they was and cried out to Jesus.
The New Testament is law and prophecy fulfilled.
If YOU want to, you can go through Mary. But you don’t have to. Nobody has to. There is no person or curtain in our way.
Besides, Mary died and is waiting, like us, for Jesus to return.
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Mickey
Guest
I’ve come to a point where I get a chuckle when I hear a fundamentalist use the “dead people” argument—as if they die and cease to exist. That seems to be an atheistic concept. These “dead people” are more alive in Christ than you or I.
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MrS
Guest
There-in lies the whole solution for you. Your church cannot be one founded by Jesus if it is based on the bible.
The Catholic Church alone was founded by Jesus, given authority by Jesus, and guided by the Holy Spirit… and after time, the bible became a fruit of that guidance.
Your membership in the church of your choice is like a second cousin to the truth… perhaps part of the family tree… but without the fullness of the “…One Lord, One Faith, One Baptism” that is the will of the Savior.
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