Sola Scriptura--now I get

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Angainor:
Truthwarior,

Thank you for your comments. I don’t really want to get into a slug match about the details of the Reformation itself. That would be going off topic. I do have one question for you though.Why do you think there is an authentic voice for Christ in this world? I myself think there is none.
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Hi Angainor,

You ask, “why do you think there is an authentic voice for Christ in the world”. A strange question! Any Church that had been established by Christ would be the authentic voice for Him in this world. The proofs for the Catholic Church being that Church are overwhelming both on a historical level and a theological one. The evidence is there if you want to look at it Angainor. This site has some of the best Catholic Apologetics material there is.

“I myself think there is none” I sense a note of dispair in that comment. That is tantamount to saying that the gates of hell have prevailed against Christ’s Church. That cannot happen. That will never happen. God won’t let it happen.
 
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Truthwarrior:
Hi Angainor,

You ask, “why do you think there is an authentic voice for Christ in the world”. A strange question! Any Church that had been established by Christ would be the authentic voice for Him in this world. The proofs for the Catholic Church being that Church are overwhelming both on a historical level and a theological one. The evidence is there if you want to look at it Angainor. This site has some of the best Catholic Apologetics material there is.
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Strange the question may seem, but I wanted to know what you thought about it, not what a website may or may not have to say on the subject. Why do you think it is necessary for Christ’s Church to have a voice?

My view, as I have explained it, is that Christ’s Church, that is, the body of Christ–in whole–protects the truth and keeps it safe. If the Church has a voice, to whom does it speak? Is it speaking to itself? Why would it have to communicate to itself the very truth that it is keeping safe? Is the Church communicating to you? Are you not part of the Church?
 
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Angainor:
Strange the question may seem, but I wanted to know what you thought about it, not what a website may or may not have to say on the subject. Why do you think it is necessary for Christ’s Church to have a voice?

My view, as I have explained it, is that Christ’s Church, that is, the body of Christ–in whole–protects the truth and keeps it safe. If the Church has a voice, to whom does it speak? Is it speaking to itself? Why would it have to communicate to itself the very truth that it is keeping safe? Is the Church communicating to you? Are you not part of the Church?
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I think you are confusing your Protestant terminology and the Catholic terminology here. In the Catholic interpretation, Christ established a visible Church here on Earth. There is no contradiction or Catch 22 here. Because it is difficult for me to summarize (maybe someone else could do it better) please go here and read this definition of the Church in the Catholic sense: newadvent.org/cathen/03744a.htm .
 
This is a most silly question: Where is the snake of Genesis one?

The Bible never tells us that he died. Where is he/it?

Another really silly question: What does the face of the deep look like?

How does one know which personal understanding is correct (that is, when we do not agree)?

Which manuscripts do we use?

Again, where in the Bible does it say only the Bible?

Did Luther/Paul mean faith as a virtue? Did Luther/Paul mean the entire gift of our FAITH?

Again, who told us what the Bible is?

What came first, the members of the Body of Christ or the written word–The Bible?
 
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Angainor:
Strange the question may seem, but I wanted to know what you thought about it, not what a website may or may not have to say on the subject. Why do you think it is necessary for Christ’s Church to have a voice?

My view, as I have explained it, is that Christ’s Church, that is, the body of Christ–in whole–protects the truth and keeps it safe. If the Church has a voice, to whom does it speak? Is it speaking to itself? Why would it have to communicate to itself the very truth that it is keeping safe? Is the Church communicating to you? Are you not part of the Church?
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Why did Paul have to write so many letters that comprise the NT? Because even when we hear the truth, read the truth, we fall into error. Almost all of the NT is the Church speaking to it’s own people.

God Bless,
Maria
 
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mmortal03:
I think you are confusing your Protestant terminology and the Catholic terminology here. In the Catholic interpretation, Christ established a visible Church here on Earth. There is no contradiction or Catch 22 here. Because it is difficult for me to summarize (maybe someone else could do it better) please go here and read this definition of the Church in the Catholic sense: newadvent.org/cathen/03744a.htm .
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Fair enough. I used my terminology to explain my position–which is–I do not believe Christ has an authentic* voice*** in this world. You can feel free to use your terminology to explain your position.

The original question was: Why do you think there is an authentic voice for Christ in this world? I assume you believe it is the Church that has this voice. So I will modify the question: Why does the Church (however you define it) require a voice? To whom is the voice communicating?
 
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Angainor:
Fair enough. I used my terminology to explain my position–which is–I do not believe Christ has an authentic* voice*** in this world. You can feel free to use your terminology to explain your position.

The original question was: Why do you think there is an authentic voice for Christ in this world? I assume you believe it is the Church that has this voice. So I will modify the question: Why does the Church (however you define it) require a voice? To whom is the voice communicating?
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His glorified body is in heaven, but His mystical body remains here on Earth, and since He promised us to send His Spirit to guide us into all truth, then the H.S. is guiding His mystical body, the Church.
 
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MariaG:
Why did Paul have to write so many letters that comprise the NT? Because even when we hear the truth, read the truth, we fall into error. Almost all of the NT is the Church speaking to it’s own people.

God Bless,
Maria
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Well… yes, I suppose the NT is a voice of sorts. What about a voice outside of Sola Scriptura?
 
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anawim:
His glorified body is in heaven, but His mystical body remains here on Earth, and since He promised us to send His Spirit to guide us into all truth, then the H.S. is guiding His mystical body, the Church.
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I agree with you. I think this mystical body is the Church as a whole, and it is the Church as a whole uphold the truth. I don’t think this Church requires a voice because there would be nobody to communicate to.

Why does this mystical body require a voice?
 
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Angainor:
Well… yes, I suppose the NT is a voice of sorts. What about a voice outside of Sola Scriptura?
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That voice continues in the same form as witnessed to in the NT, the leaders of the Church correcting, explaining and admonishing the body of Christ and spreading the Good News.
God Bless,
Maria
 
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Angainor:
Fair enough. I used my terminology to explain my position–which is–I do not believe Christ has an authentic* voice*** in this world. You can feel free to use your terminology to explain your position.

The original question was: Why do you think there is an authentic voice for Christ in this world? I assume you believe it is the Church that has this voice. So I will modify the question: Why does the Church (however you define it) require a voice? To whom is the voice communicating?
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Luke 10:16 “He who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you rejects me, and he who rejects me rejects him who sent me.”
 
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Angainor:
I agree with you. I think this mystical body is the Church as a whole, and it is the Church as a whole uphold the truth. I don’t think this Church requires a voice because there would be nobody to communicate to.

Why does this mystical body require a voice?
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The Church communicates to us, the members. If there wasn’t a single voice speaking the truth, you would have a cacophony of voices.
 
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anawim:
The Church communicates to us, the members. If there wasn’t a single voice speaking the truth, you would have a cacophony of voices.
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The Church is what upholds the truth. The Church is the body of Christ. Each part does his part in upholding the truth. The big toe does his part. The liver does his part. The eyes do their part.

Each part does its part and the truth is upheld. Mission accomplished. Upholding the truth is the only mission assigned to the Church. The truth is upheld even though the body of Christ does not infallibly communicate the truth to its own big toe.

What good is upholding the truth if the body of Christ has no voice? Knowledge of the truth survives down through the centuries, but you have to look for it.
 
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Angainor:
The Church is what upholds the truth. The Church is the body of Christ. Each part does his part in upholding the truth. The big toe does his part. The liver does his part. The eyes do their part.

Each part does its part and the truth is upheld. Mission accomplished. Upholding the truth is the only mission assigned to the Church. The truth is upheld even though the body of Christ does not infallibly communicate the truth to its own big toe.

What good is upholding the truth if the body of Christ has no voice? Knowledge of the truth survives down through the centuries, but you have to look for it.
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I think your definition of the Body of Christ, or at least its role, is wrong. You are creating your own definition of the Body of Christ to fit your beliefs, instead of the other way around, in this case letting the Bible define the role of the Body of Christ. Can anyone please give the proper Catholic definition of the Body of Christ and its role, and what the Bible says on it?

Thanks
 
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Angainor:
The Church is what upholds the truth. The Church is the body of Christ. Each part does his part in upholding the truth. The big toe does his part. The liver does his part. The eyes do their part.

Each part does its part and the truth is upheld. Mission accomplished. Upholding the truth is the only mission assigned to the Church. The truth is upheld even though the body of Christ does not infallibly communicate the truth to its own big toe.

What good is upholding the truth if the body of Christ has no voice? Knowledge of the truth survives down through the centuries, but you have to look for it.
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Let’s look at scripture

*Matt 18:15-18 "If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every word may be confirmed by the evidence of two or three witnesses. If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector. Truly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

1 Tim 3:15 if I am delayed, you may know how one ought to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth.*

To summarize these passages:

1.If brothers (e.g. you and me) have a disagreement regarding what is the truth the church is the ultimate judge.
2.Whatever the church decides is bound/loosed in heaven and since God cannot ratify error there is an implicit infallibility given to the church regarding the truth revealed by God.
3.The church is the pillar and bulwark of the truth. Without a pillar to support it and define it, truth would be unidentifiable from untruth.
 
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volzcpa:
Let’s look at scripture

Matt 18:15-18 "If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every word may be confirmed by the evidence of two or three witnesses. If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector. Truly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

1 Tim 3:15 if I am delayed, you may know how one ought to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth.

To summarize these passages:

1.If brothers (e.g. you and me) have a disagreement regarding what is the truth the church is the ultimate judge.
2.Whatever the church decides is bound/loosed in heaven and since God cannot ratify error there is an implicit infallibility given to the church regarding the truth revealed by God.
3.The church is the pillar and bulwark of the truth. Without a pillar to support it and define it, truth would be unidentifiable from untruth.
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  1. Is the Church judging truth in this case? The subject knows his brother sined against him, does he not? The two or three witnesses know a sin was commited before they bring it to the Church, do they not?
 
Angainor said:
1. Is the Church judging truth in this case? The subject knows his brother sined against him, does he not? The two or three witnesses know a sin was commited before they bring it to the Church, do they not?
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The issue is not that the offending brother committed sin, but rather that he did not accept correction, first of his brother and then of the witnesses. If he does not accept the correction of the church i.e. he continues in his sin, he is then expelled (cast out, excommunicated) from the community by the church (treated as a Gentile). The church could not expel someone for doing wrong, unless it had a certainty of truth to judge what is right and wrong, moral or immoral, sinful or not. This certainty of truth is authenticated by Christ in Matt 15:18 “whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.” Again, God can not ratify error, since he cannot deceive nor be deceived.
 
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Angainor:
Indeed. Who is to say?

This is, of course, why I’m Protestant. Protestants don’t acknowledge a “who” which says which interpretations are correct.
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As do the pagan Romans - that whore you see riding the beast- “What is truth” - Pontius Pilate

Ken
 
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mmortal03:
I think your definition of the Body of Christ, or at least its role, is wrong. You are creating your own definition of the Body of Christ to fit your beliefs, instead of the other way around, in this case letting the Bible define the role of the Body of Christ. Can anyone please give the proper Catholic definition of the Body of Christ and its role, and what the Bible says on it?

Thanks
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Hi mmortal,

I think angainor is playing with words here. His idea of “Church” is totally different to yours or mine. I believe the uniqueness of Jesus leads us to the uniqueness of his Church, the Catholic Church. Catholics have always describes the Church as the “one true Church” The bishops of Vatican II taught that the sole Church of Christ subsists in the Catholic Church, which is governed by the successor of Peter, the present Pope and by the bishops in communion with him. Subsists in practise means that the Catholic Church sees itself as possessing all the sacramental life and structures willed by Christ. The bishops also declared that many elements of sanctification and of truth are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church. Nevertheless all Christians are called to unity and most strive towards it.
The Body of Christ, as far as I am concerned, is the Catholic Church, not some amorphous mass of disparate “believing” Christians.
 
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Truthwarrior:
Hi mmortal,

I think angainor is playing with words here. His idea of “Church” is totally different to yours or mine. I believe the uniqueness of Jesus leads us to the uniqueness of his Church, the Catholic Church. Catholics have always describes the Church as the “one true Church” The bishops of Vatican II taught that the sole Church of Christ subsists in the Catholic Church, which is governed by the successor of Peter, the present Pope and by the bishops in communion with him. Subsists in practise means that the Catholic Church sees itself as possessing all the sacramental life and structures willed by Christ. The bishops also declared that many elements of sanctification and of truth are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church. Nevertheless all Christians are called to unity and most strive towards it.
The Body of Christ, as far as I am concerned, is the Catholic Church, not some amorphous mass of disparate “believing” Christians.
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It is true that the Catholic Church is the Body of Christ, but it should be noted that all baptized Christians are included in the Catholic Church and the Body of Christ.

CCC
*872 “In virtue of their rebirth in Christ there exists among all the Christian faithful a true equality with regard to dignity and the activity whereby all cooperate in the building up of the Body of Christ in accord with each one’s own condition and function.”
1267 Baptism makes us members of the Body of Christ: “Therefore . . . we are members one of another.” Baptism incorporates us into the Church. From the baptismal fonts is born the one People of God of the New Covenant, which transcends all the natural or human limits of nations, cultures, races, and sexes: “For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body.” *
 
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