Sola Scriptura--now I get

[Angainor]

mmortal03:

Even though the Church contains everyone, the word is also used to refer to the Magisterium.

Why?

You just summarized my point for me in a way I didn’t dare say outright. It is *the *Church, the Church that contains everyone that is a foundation of truth. Anything else and you are building on the wrong foundation.

 

[dcdurel]

Angainor:

Why?

You just summarized my point for me in a way I didn’t dare say outright. It is *the *Church, the Church that contains everyone that is a foundation of truth. Anything else and you are building on the wrong foundation.

The Church does contain everyone, but only certain members have been entrusted with authority to authentically interpret the word of God handed down in scripture or Sacred Tradition. If we reject the authorities that Jesus appointed, we are rejecting Jesus Himself.
He said to His apostles, “He who rejects you, rejects Me”

This authority is for our benefit. Because who knows which is the true Gospel without and authority to teach and preserve this Gospel.

Thus the Pope holds the same office that Peter was given. One of the duties of the Pope is preserve the Gospel that has been handed down from Peter and the apostles.

 

[Giver]

Pax:

I got it right the first time. I read everything you write very carefully. I stand by my comments. They pertain to you just as they pertain to anyone else that thinks that they can go it alone without the church. Many of your unique and errant theological ideas are part of the data that demonstrate my point.

I would suggest that you study scripture to find out all that it has to say about the Church.

Pax, you should know I am not walking alone; Jesus is at my side all the time. Also you should know by now that Jesus is having me call people to a much closer walk with him than your church calls people.

 

[AquinasXVI]

The practical problem is this:

If Angianor and Giver were to write down ALL of what they believe, I would venture to say that they will match on many points and have completely different ideas on certain points and both will cite biblical passages for their differing ideas. Both will attest that they are both guided by the Holy Spirit…

So it becomes, My Holy Spirit vs. Your Holy Spirit. Then, they will not see eye to eye and then form their own church. This is why there are so many different protestant groups.

Furthermore, by their adherence to their personal interpretation they have in a sense practice without consciousness–infallability.

This is one of the protestant problems of Sola Scriptura.

in XT.

 

[Church_Militant]

Giver:

Pax, you should know I am not walking alone; Jesus is at my side all the time. Also you should know by now that Jesus is having me call people to a much closer walk with him than your church calls people.

Robert that is a crock of bunk.

Jesus is having me call people to a much closer walk with him than your church calls people

The very people here on CAF that you attempt to mislead with all your selective Bible quotes and (mis)interpretations are the very ones that have been drawn into a closer love and knowledge of Our Lord, by the very church that you deride.

You make a great many assertions about your “personal relationship with Christ”, and yet you have again and again been charitably rebuked by Catholics and even n-Cs for unscriptural teachings. You proclaim yourself a prophet, but when we check your teachings against the Bible and the things that the early church taught we have shown you again and again that you are wrong. Since the Holy Spirit does not contradict Himself or teach errors that means there remain only three possibilities.

1. You are decieved and the spirit that you “hear” from is not that of Our Lord Jesus Christ.
2. You are carnal and therefore are using these assertions to make yourself feel “special” while knowingly teaching error.
3. You are mentally ill.

I don’t pretend to know your heart nor the state of your mental health, but having discerned the errors that you preach in your posts and having confronted you charitably concerning them, I can safely and scripturally reject your teachings with confidence in the Holy Spirit and in the Catholic Church that you deny calls us all to a deeper love for Jesus Christ.
Pax tecum,

 

[AquinasXVI]

Giver:

. Also you should know by now that Jesus is having me call people to a much closer walk with him than your church calls people.

Wow!

Pride is truly intoxicating.

Be careful Giver for your mind has convinced you of omnipotence. Your opinion of the church and your personal accomplishments may not be coming from Christ.

in XT.

 

[Angainor]

AquinasXVI:

If Angianor and Giver were to write down ALL of what they believe, I would venture to say that they will match on many points and have completely different ideas on certain points and both will cite biblical passages for their differing ideas. Both will attest that they are both guided by the Holy Spirit…

Add Benedict and you are close to speaking the truth, except I make no claim to be guided by the Holy Spirit. The Church as a whole is guided by the Holy Spirit.

I don’t want you to take my word on it for anything I say. Test everything. Beware of false prophets.

 

[AquinasXVI]

Angainor:

Add Benedict and you are close to speaking the truth, except I make no claim to be guided by the Holy Spirit. The Church as a whole is guided by the Holy Spirit.

If you mean Benedict XVI, I wouldn’t put him with the same category for he is, like his predecessor consistent with the Magisterium of the Church that is 2000 years old.

Thanks.

in XT

 

[Angainor]

AquinasXVI:

If you mean Benedict XVI, I wouldn’t put him with the same category for he is, like his predecessor consistent with the Magisterium of the Church that is 2000 years old.

So, is it your judgement that he is consistant with the 2000 year old Magisterium?

 

[JSmitty2005]

aurora77:

OK, I’ve always thought that the idea of Sola Scripture didn’t make much sense. I couldn’t articulate it, but it just seemed off to me.

All that you need to know about this heretical tradition of men (that nullifies the Word of God) can be found here:

geocities.com/militantis/solascriptura.html?200625

 

[Mordocai]

Now THAT was a good article. Prolly the best I’ve read on Sola Scriptura. Everyone needs to read that.

Including you.

Yeah, you!

 

[Pax]

Giver:

Pax, you should know I am not walking alone; Jesus is at my side all the time. Also you should know by now that Jesus is having me call people to a much closer walk with him than your church calls people.

I agree with you on the point of calling people to a much closer walk with Jesus. I disagree with you when you posit erroneous theological ideas and ignore the authority of the Church. These latter problems are not from the Lord and in these areas you are indeed walking alone.

Considering the overwhelming evidence brought to bear on the significant errors that you have floated on these forums “you should know by now that you are walking alone” in this area.

 

[JSmitty2005]

Mordocai:

Now THAT was a good article. Prolly the best I’ve read on Sola Scriptura. Everyone needs to read that.

I know! You can get it as a booklet from TAN books here. I’ve been thinking about saving up a lot of money to buy it in bulk and put it on all the cars at the Protestant churches in my town.

 

[AquinasXVI]

Angainor:

So, is it your judgement that he is consistant with the 2000 year old Magisterium?

No, it’s a matter of fact. Take time and read history (not the DaVinciCode), the early church, the self same church that declared themselves CATHOLICS. Even the bad popes did not change doctrine.

Take your own advice and check it out yourself–test it! Go to the Catechism and read the footnotes and see how the integrated teachings are consistent thoughout not only with the Holy Bible but with the Magisterium.

Gracias.

in XT.

 

[mmortal03]

Angainor:

The Church as a whole is guided by the Holy Spirit.

“The Church” is one, holy, catholic, and apostolic. There is a visible Church on Earth. Jesus created it.

Was Jesus speaking symbolically about the church when he said that “on this rock I will build my church”? Was he saying some sort of “invisible church”? No, because in the next line he states that “whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed[c] in heaven.” If it was invisible, e.g. if it was not physically a church controlled by the Apostles, then Jesus would not have needed to mention “earth”. Jesus also did not say that whatever everyone “binds on earth will be bound in heaven”, he was speaking to the Apostles, and their Church has continued down through the ages, and the authority that Jesus gave the Apostles has been passed down through the ages.

 

[Milliardo]

Angainor:

If you are expecting me to tell you authoritatively what the correct interpretation is, I can’t do that.

Bingo. That is why your next statement:

I could suggest an interpretation and defend that interpretation to you. I would not expect you to take my word for it. I would expect you to test the interpretation.

Doesn’t hold any water at all. Since you don’t have the authority, I am not in any position at all to take your word for it nor to test it, nor indeed are you even obliged at all to defend it, since you do not have the authority to tell me anything at all.

 

[maryj]

Angainor:

Indeed. Who is to say?

This is, of course, why I’m Protestant. Protestants don’t acknowledge a “who” which says which interpretations are correct.

I asked this question in #10 post, I’ll ask again… Or incorrect?? I have read all of the posts in this thread, you have not addressed this except to tell us that we must “test”. How will you know if you are wrong with an interpretation, are you saying that you will never be wrong, or there is no wrong interpretations? And I know I’ll have to test your answer, but if you are finding the answer only for yourself how will I know to test it?? So if there is no “who” please explain Isiah 59:21 Isiah prophesies the promise of a “living voice” to hand on the word of God to “generations” by mouth, not by written word. I await your answer.

 

[JSmitty2005]

Angainor:

Indeed. Who is to say?

This is, of course, why I’m Protestant. Protestants don’t acknowledge a “who” which says which interpretations are correct.

Our Lord said that we would be led into all truth for all of eternity. He didn’t say we’d only get half-truths or just the “essentials” (whatever they are). Personal interpretation doesn’t work. How many denominations of Christians have “tested the spirits”? I think it’s several thousand. And they’ve all come up with something different. Not to mention that personal interpretation is downright unbiblical.

“In them (Paul’s epistles) there are some things hard to understand that the ignorant and unstable distort to their own destruction, just as they do the other scriptures. Therefore, beloved, since you are forewarned, be on your guard not to be led into the error of the unprincipled and to fall from your own stability.” 2 Pet. 3:16-17

“First of all you must understand this, that no prophecy :nope: of scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation, because no prophecy ever came by the impulse of man, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.”
2 Pet. 1:20-21

Acts 8:27-40, the eunuch was trying to read Isaiah when Philip asked him, “Do you understand what you are reading?” But he said, “Why, how can I, unless someone shows me?” Since Philip had been filled by the Holy Spirit in Acts 2:4, he was able to explain the truth of Isaiah to the eunuch.

“You shall not do as we are now doing; here, everyone does what seems right to himself…” :nope:
Deuteronomy 12:8, Judges 17:6, Judges 21:25

“**Obey your superiors ** and be subject to them, for they keep watch as having to render an account of your souls.”
Hebrews 13:17 :yup:

“Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which you have learned: and avoid them. For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.” :tsktsk:
Romans 16:17-18

“And knowing their thoughts Jesus said to them, ‘Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation, and every city or house divided against itself will not stand.’”
Matthew 12:25-26

“Has Christ been divided up?”
1Corinthians 1:13

 

[Angainor]

Milliardo:

Doesn’t hold any water at all. Since you don’t have the authority, I am not in any position at all to take your word for it nor to test it, nor indeed are you even obliged at all to defend it, since you do not have the authority to tell me anything at all.

Then what are you in a position to test?

 

[Milliardo]

Angainor:

Then what are you in a position to test?

I have the position to test, thank you, but not your words nor your interpretations. Since you have no authority to make any interpretation, then I am not obliged in any way to test what you say. It’s as simple as that.