Sola Scriptura--now I get

[jim1130]

kujo313:

Nope, it didn’t take a movie. It took over 20 years experience and seeing the “fruit” of people who have been in there before.
What I was trying to say is that by watching the movie, you will see your “church” just as the way I see it.
My path is following the only Way.

Peace.

Sounds like your path is following Luther’s direction or the director’s interpretation of the Catholic Church.

Did you see the movie “Cinderella Man”? Remember how James Braddock’s opponent, Max Baer, was portrayed in this film? Did you know that the portrayal of Max Baer in “Cinderella Man” was 100% inaccurate and fabricated for purely dramatic purposes? That the filmmakers needed a nemesis to reinforce Braddock’s likeable sale-ability to the audience? That the real Max Baer was nothing like his portrayal in the movie? And how Max Baer’s family was livid with how the movie depicted him?

In all movies, you need a protagonist, with whom the audience can sympathize, and an antagonist, for the audience to root against and dislike.

In the movie “Luther,” could it be that the Church was dramatized as “bad” to demonstrate Luther as a more appealing protagonist for the audience to empathize? Do you think in a movie about “Luther” the Catholic Church and her clergy will be portrayed in a way other than antagonistic? After all, what was the slant of the movie? It was about Luther, right?

In “Shawshank Redemption,” do you think that the villainous Bible-quoting Warden accurately portrayed all of those people who unceasingly quote the Bible and profess to subscribe to it to the very letter?

I stand by my concern that I believe you allowed a movie to impress upon you and reinforce your own personal dislike towards the Catholic Church. You have stated as much in your posts. Sadly, I believe you will go to great lengths to target and identify avenues that feed your anti-Catholic sentiment, whether it is a 50-year old movie or other element.

Peace.

 

[Giver]

DARichards:

I believe** all ** that you have said and I also believe that you have heard from the Holy Spirit and that Our Lord speaks to you. My point that I was making was that in certain cases we sometimes don’t know what is the Lord and what is ourselves. There is sometimes a confusion… It is in these situations, especially in the interpretation of Scripture that the Traditions of the Church come into play. Far beit for me to trust my own understanding in interpreting what God means in certain situations in His Word. I would rather rely on what He has shown the Church in the past, and build on that foundation rather than my own.

I can appreciate wanting to accept the Church’s teaching and not go to Jesus to find out what if anything should be lived differently. A person doesn’t have to really concern him or herself, if something is right or wrong, that has already been determined. The Church say it’s all right to occasionally commit sin, all someone has to do is go to confession and they are in good shape until the next time. Also a person has much support, people telling them their OK doing some things that may not quite go along with Scripture. All anyone has to do is convince him or herself that the Church is right and that relives him or her of all responsibility.

Yes I also wanted to accept the teaching I had been taught by the Catholic Church, and it was quite traumatic for me to discard much of what I had been taught. My mind went back and forth, about what is right and wrong, so much that Jesus had to tell me to quit trying to figure him out and just follow him. I lost the support of my six brothers and sisters, most of my friends, and lost a whole way of life that I had worked very hard to create for myself.

Jesus said his people would hear his voice, but people have to want to hear him before they will, don’t you think? Now if they are afraid to ask him what is right and wrong, doesn’t that make you think maybe he or she knows they are not doing everything they should?

 

[montanaman]

kujo313:

Because of their “traditions”. One denomination says that Jesus and Satan were brothers. Another teaches that there is no Trinity.
Though Scripture could prove them wrong, or that it isn’t even IN there, they do their own thing anyway.

You really do need to engage the brain instead having all these knee-jerk reactions against the word “tradition.” Like it or not, there is ZERO global condemnation of “tradition” in scripture. Like your sola scriptura invention, it simply doesn’t exist. Every time you put sneer quotes around that word, you reveal your ignorance of scripture.

 

[montanaman]

Yes I also wanted to accept the teaching I had been taught by the Catholic Church, and it was quite traumatic for me to discard much of what I had been taught.

And the “Biggest Whopper” award for the day goes to Giver…

 

[Eden]

Just as far as the saints (meaning all people who have gone to heaven and are witness to the Beatific Vision), it is shocking to read that a follower of Christ believes they are “dead” in anyway other than body.

1 Cor 13:12; 1 John 3:2 - now we see in a mirror dimly, but in heaven we see face to face. The saints are more alive than we are!

www.scripturecatholic.com

 

[Eden]

kujo313:

Because of their “traditions”. One denomination says that Jesus and Satan were brothers. Another teaches that there is no Trinity.
Though Scripture could prove them wrong, or that it isn’t even IN there, they do their own thing anyway.

That’s why Jesus founded a Church, the Church and the Holy Spirit protects only His Church from teaching error.

 

[DARichards]

St.Eric:

Someone give me a history lesson here. But I was under the impression that not all of the authors of the New Testament SAW or personally KNEW Jesus in the flesh before he was crucified. Didn’t James write his book around 100 AD. Wasn’t Paul a convert who converted after the resurrection? Hey, i don’t claim to know it all!

I am personally of the opinion that the entire canon of Scripture was closed by 7o A.D. (by this I mean that all the books were written, but obviously not compiled) There are many reasons I hold this, but there are many writers who date James between 48 and 50 A.D. Yes, you are correct. One of the qualifications of the original apostles is that they saw or knew Christ personally…discipled directly by Him (including Paul)…Hence the 12 foundations spoken of in Revelation…don’t get me started…

 

[Eden]

Giver:

The Church say it’s all right to occasionally commit sin, all someone has to do is go to confession and they are in good shape until the next time.

This is how you interpret the beautiful Sacrament of Penance instituted by Christ? What a pity.

 

[SemperJase]

St.Eric:

Can anyone answer my question above?

In Protestant teaching, James was the physical brother of Jesus. Catholics believe he was a cousin (apparently the word Aramaic uses the same word for both brother and cousin). At any rate, James certainly knew Jesus.

Paul did not know Jesus before the ressurection. After Jesus ascended into heaven, Jesus appeared to Paul while Paul was travelling to Damascus.

Mark and Luke were disciples of the apostles.

 

[DARichards]

Giver:

I can appreciate wanting to accept the Church’s teaching and not go to Jesus to find out what if anything should be lived differently. A person doesn’t have to really concern him or herself, if something is right or wrong, that has already been determined. The Church say it’s all right to occasionally commit sin, all someone has to do is go to confession and they are in good shape until the next time. Also a person has much support, people telling them their OK doing some things that may not quite go along with Scripture.

Giver, with all due respect, this is a mischaracterisation of the Rite of Reconciliation. The purpose is not say “it’s all right to occasionally commit sin, all someone has to do is go to confession and they are in good shape until the next time.”
The church says that if we have committed a sin that puts our souls in mortal danger than we confess those sins. It is not a reason out of not sinning, but rather a way for us to clear our consciences of wrong doing as Christ instructed.
Please give some examles of "people telling them their OK doing some things that may not quite go along with Scripture. " I think that what you will find is that people are doing things that don’t line up with ***your interpretation * ** of the Scripture.

Giver:

All anyone has to do is convince him or herself that the Church is right and that relives him or her of all responsibility.

This again is an overstatement. The Catholic Church is not a church of robots. But there is no way that as humans we can physically do all the ancient research of the customs, idioms, and languages of the first century Church to come to our own interpretations. There is a certain amount of faith in the fact that Christ promised that He would be with us always, He would not leave us, He would not let the Holy Spirit guide us into error, but we by no means are relieved of responsibility of our own study. In fact, individual priests and even bishops can teach error. (i.e. homosexual unions) it is our responsibility as Catholics to confront these errors with Scripture, Tradition and teachings from the Magisterium.

 

[kujo313]

Eden:

The word “Christian” was first used in Antioch. The Bishop of Antioch, Ignatius said around 107 A.D:

“See that ye all follow the bishop, even as Christ Jesus does the Father, and the presbytery as ye would the apostles. Do ye also reverence the deacons, as those that carry out the appointment of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is [administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude also be; by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church.” *Ignatius of Antioch, Epistle to the Smyrneans, 8:2 (c. A.D. 110). *

Yes, Christianity was first called “The Way”. As a mocking term, I believe, the followers were first called Christians in Antioch. As you can see above from their Bishop those Christians belonged to the Catholic Church.

“[A]ll the people wondered that there should be such a difference between the unbelievers and the elect, of whom this most admirable Polycarp was one, having in our own times been an apostolic and prophetic teacher,** and bishop of the Catholic Church which is in Smyrna**. For every word that went out of his mouth either has been or shall yet be accomplished.” *Martyrdom of Polycarp, 16:2 (A.D. 155). *

“…to be in honour however** with the Catholic Church** for the ordering of ecclesiastical discipline…one to the Laodicenes, another to the Alexandrians, both forged in Paul’s name to suit the heresy of Marcion, and several others, which cannot be received into the Catholic Church; for it is not fitting that gall be mixed with honey. The Epistle of Jude no doubt, and the couple bearing the name of John, are accepted by the Catholic Church.…But of Arsinous, called also Valentinus, or of Militiades we receive nothing at all.” *The fragment of Muratori (A.D. 177). *

“[N]or does it consist in this, that he should again falsely imagine, as being above this [fancied being], a Pleroma at one time supposed to contain thirty, and at another time an innumerable tribe of Aeons, as these teachers who are destitute of truly divine wisdom maintain; while the Catholic Church possesses one and the same faith throughout the whole world, as we have already said.” *Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 1:10,3 (A.D. 180). *

“For it is evident that those men lived not so long ago,–in the reign of Antoninus for the most part,–and that they at first were believers in the doctrine of the Catholic Church, in the church of Rome under the episcopate of the blessed Eleutherus, until on account of their ever restless curiosity, with which they even infected the brethren, they were more than once expelled.” *Tertullian, On the Prescription Against Heretics, 22,30 (A.D. 200). *

You see, the Catholic Church is the Church. It doesn’t say “Full Gospel Temple”.

The word “Christian” was first used in Antioch. The Bishop of Antioch, Ignatius said around 107 A.D:

The word “Christian” was first used in Antioch… between the years 53 and 58 AD. (Acts 11:26)
Please don’t say “that was the Catholic church.” That was a “church” strictly preaching the Gospel and not wandering from it. They preached it through torture and to their deaths.

The word “catholic” does mean “universal”. Thus, a universal church. But it had BETTER be a church with a foundation of Jesus Christ.
“Full Gospel Temple” is not THE Church. The Christians are. Belonging to ANY temple, congregation or denomination does not make you a Christian, being a disciple of Jesus does.
Disciples of John the Baptist left John and followed Jesus. Likewise, John told them to follow Jesus.
If a temple (not necessarily a denomination) teaches from what so-and-so said in AD 323, I’d rather be caught from what Jesus said in AD 30.
THAT is written in the Bible.

 

[Mickey]

Giver:

The Church say it’s all right to occasionally commit sin, all someone has to do is go to confession and they are in good shape until the next time.

Poppycock.

Giver:

Also a person has much support, people telling them their OK doing some things that may not quite go along with Scripture. All anyone has to do is convince him or herself that the Church is right and that relives him or her of all responsibility.

Poppycock.

Giver:

My mind went back and forth, about what is right and wrong, so much that Jesus had to tell me to quit trying to figure him out and just follow him.

So Jesus told you to leave the Catholic Church?

 

[MrS]

Giver:

I** can appreciate wanting to accept the Church’s teaching and not go to Jesus to find out what if anything should be lived differently**. A person doesn’t have to really concern him or herself, if something is right or wrong, that has already been determined. The Church say it’s all right to occasionally commit sin, all someone has to do is go to confession and they are in good shape until the next time. Also a person has much support, people telling them their OK doing some things that may not quite go along with Scripture. All anyone has to do is convince him or herself that the Church is right and that relives him or her of all responsibility.

Yes I also wanted to accept the teaching I had been taught by the Catholic Church, and it was quite traumatic for me to discard much of what I had been taught. My mind went back and forth, about what is right and wrong, so much that Jesus had to tell me to quit trying to figure him out and just follow him. I lost the support of my six brothers and sisters, most of my friends, and lost a whole way of life that I had worked very hard to create for myself.

** Jesus said his people would hear his voice, but people have to want to hear him before they will, don’t you think?** Now if they are afraid to ask him what is right and wrong, doesn’t that make you think maybe he or she knows they are not doing everything they should?

1- the Church (Catholic only) is the bride of Christ… it is the Truth, and it is Jesus. He is the Head, and Catholics choose to follow the Head,… not any other part of the body.

Outside the Catholic Church is found less than the fullness of the Faith, and the Truth… Jesus’ plan, not mine or yours.

2- Jesus also said “…he who hears you, hears Me, and the One who sent Me…”

And he was not talking about your founders, your church or your beliefs… rather it was the Apostles and those He instructed to carry on in His absence.
We are not orphans…by His choice and our cooperation.
You have become not an orphan, but certainly a prodigal son.

 

[montanaman]

For Giver to be so wrong about a basic Catholic thing like Penance, it makes me doubt he was ever Catholic. In fact, I’d put money on it. I think he’s grasping for credibility by claiming to be an ex-Catholic.

Then again, most ex-Catholics had only the faintest clue about the Church when they left. It’s only after they’re safely embraced by their new church with the great band that they become Catholic “experts.”

 

[Mickey]

montanaman:

For Giver to be so wrong about a basic Catholic thing like Penance, it makes me doubt he was ever Catholic. In fact, I’d put money on it. I think he’s grasping for credibility by claiming to be an ex-Catholic.

It seems that you are correct.

 

[Eden]

kujo313:

The word “Christian” was first used in Antioch. The Bishop of Antioch, Ignatius said around 107 A.D:

The word “Christian” was first used in Antioch… between the years 53 and 58 AD. (Acts 11:26)

Some facts and figures to consider:

St. Ignatius of Antioch - auditor to St. John.

Year he calls the Church “Catholic” 107 A.D. - 74 years after the death and Resurrection of Jesus. 39-44 years after the use of the term “Christian” in the Bible.

“Full Gospel Temple” - (Not on list of churches consulted, but I was told by a Protestant poster that it’s Pentecostal):

Religion: Pentecostal

Year founded: 1901- Happy Centennial

Founder:Charles F. Parkham

Place:Topeka, KS, U.S.A.

 

[Eden]

kujo313:

If a temple (not necessarily a denomination) teaches from what so-and-so said in AD 323, I’d rather be caught from what Jesus said in AD 30.
THAT is written in the Bible.

Then why should I listen to anything you have to say in 2006?

 

[MrS]

Eden:

Then why should I listen to anything you have to say in 2006?

:tiphat:

Actually we should… it is biblical.

We are told often that we can best recognize the good because we are allowed to see the anti-good.

We we are so graced as to be wheat, we must accept growing with weeds and thorns.

As Catholics we become stronger by sharing, explaining, defending. The absolute best way to try to learn something is to try and teach it. We (giver too) are able to learn by trying to teach.

He will learn… and he will come home.

edit: and kujo too… God leaves no one out… so neither should I

 

[Giver]

DARichards:

Giver, with all due respect, this is a mischaracterisation of the Rite of Reconciliation. The purpose is not say “it’s all right to occasionally commit sin, all someone has to do is go to confession and they are in good shape until the next time.”
The church says that if we have committed a sin that puts our souls in mortal danger than we confess those sins. It is not a reason out of not sinning, but rather a way for us to clear our consciences of wrong doing as Christ instructed.
Please give some examles of "people telling them their OK doing some things that may not quite go along with Scripture. " I think that what you will find is that people are doing things that don’t line up with ***your interpretation *** of the Scripture.

I understand what the Church says about reconciliation, but in practice it is understood and used about the way I expressed it.

War! Now, I can’t believe a Christian in good conscience can accept killing. Now I know Rome hasn’t accepted the present war that the USA is in, but there are I’m sure many Catholic fighting and killing in that war, and how can anyone call that a just war? I don’t believe there is any such thing as a just war, but the Catholic Church says there is.

Possessions! Now Scripture tells us we can’t be disciples of Jesus unless we give up all our possessions.

Storing! Jesus told us not to store up for our future.

Now I can go on, but this should be enough to tickle you conscience.

This again is an overstatement. The Catholic Church is not a church of robots. But there is no way that as humans we can physically do all the ancient research of the customs, idioms, and languages of the first century Church to come to our own interpretations. There is a certain amount of faith in the fact that Christ promised that He would be with us always, He would not leave us, He would not let the Holy Spirit guide us into error, but we by no means are relieved of responsibility of our own study. In fact, individual priests and even bishops can teach error. (i.e. homosexual unions) it is our responsibility as Catholics to confront these errors with Scripture, Tradition and teachings from the Magisterium.

 

[JSmitty2005]

kujo313:

Please don’t say “that was the Catholic church.”

“So then, have I become your enemy by telling you the truth?” (Gal. 4:16)

kujo313:

If a temple (not necessarily a denomination) teaches from what so-and-so said in AD 323, I’d rather be caught from what Jesus said in AD 30. THAT is written in the Bible.

You wouldn’t have your Bible to know what Jesus said if you didn’t listen to the teaching * of a “denomination” in AD 393 (Council of Hippo) and AD 397 (Council of Carthage) and then approved by the POPE!

*(I hate to call the Church that since it’s not really one.)