Sola Scriptura--now I get

[Eden]

Actually we should… it is biblical.

I
[/quote]

I think you misunderstood my question. Kujo discredited the validity of what Church Fathers said in the 4th century because it is too far removed from the time of Christ. That’s why I wanted to know why we should listen to what he says about the Church in 2006. That’s even more removed from the time of Christ.

 

[Mickey]

Giver:

I understand what the Church says about reconciliation, but in practice it is understood and used about the way I expressed it.

No it’s not. :nope:

 

[Eden]

I don’t believe there is any such thing as a just war, but the Catholic Church says there is.

World War II - Hitler - Concentration Camps - Just War? Yes or no.

 

[Eden]

Giver:

Possessions! Now Scripture tells us we can’t be disciples of Jesus unless we give up all our possessions.

Storing! Jesus told us not to store up for our future.

Now I can go on, but this should be enough to tickle you conscience.

Are you using your own computer? Do you have a savings account? Please explain.

 

[geno75]

Actually we should… it is biblical.

He will learn… and he will come home.

[/quote]

Matt8:20"…,but the Son of Man has no place to lay his head."

What “home” are you talking about? Jesus tells the disciples that his believers, his church, has no place to call home on this earth. So why would the Vatican be “home”?

 

[montanaman]

geno75:

Matt8:20"…,but the Son of Man has no place to lay his head."

What “home” are you talking about? Jesus tells the disciples that his believers, his church, has no place to call home on this earth. So why would the Vatican be “home”?

Then I wonder where they put that lamp…?

Or the city on the Hill?

Hmm. Perplexing.

 

[NPS]

MariaG:

Well, I’ll certainly miss your insight. But come on, tell the truth. While you may take a several month break you’ll come back. You have a gift for reaching some you others give up for lost. You wouldn’t want to waste that gift.

What you need to do is ask God to let you see some of the fruit. Let him see a person who you personally talked to, may have thought, “this is no use” and now they are seriously looking into the Catholic Church or are in it. Ask. I know when I wonder what good I am doing, and ask, He always brings along a person who tells me how much I and or others helped.

Anyway, I do pray that you don’t give it up altogether. Just take a prolonged break. That is what I do, fairly frequently. In fact, I’ll be taking one for the next few weeks.

God Bless,
Maria

I know MM from the other forum. I have been meaning to PM him about this for about a week, but I’ll take the opportunity to say it publicly, even though he will likely be embarrassed:

MM does a great job at defending and explaining the Catholic faith. He has such a good way with words and a terrific manner with people that he truly is a gift to the Church. There have been many instances lately where I’ve read comments over there where people have told of understanding Catholicism more and of being more acceptable to it than before. They specifically cite Montanaman as the reason. Have his efforts directly led to a conversion to the Church yet? Apparently not, but it may very well happen and at least he has perhaps set an environment with certain people in which they or a relative or friend may be open to Catholicism instead of hearing nothing but misinformation which would steer them away.

I know he gets frustrated. Who wouldn’t? Sometimes it is ridiculously offensive over there, even blasphemous. My fuse is about 1/3 the length of his and frankly I admire him his prolonged efforts.
His wonderful combination of knowledge, likability, and gentle yet firm nudging towards truth have definately helped a lot.

I know he’s embarrassed by all of this, and I too don’t want to get off track here, but it needed to be said.

(MM–please don’t come back with “you do a great job too” etc.
you do good work, man. Accept it. Maybe take a breather if necessary–but keep up the good work.)

Sorry, folks—On With Apologetics!

 

[montanaman]

Oh man…I held my breath as I read that whole thing. Thanks.

But seriously, NPS IS the heavy-hitter over there right now. His stuff on Jewish history is phenomenal. (Sorry–had to be said.)

 

[NPS]

montanaman:

Oh man…I held my breath as I read that whole thing. Thanks.

But seriously, NPS IS the heavy-hitter over there right now. His stuff on Jewish history is phenomenal. (Sorry–had to be said.)

~chuckle~ Nah…I’m the grumpy, too-tired-for-games and bulldookey, “is that what happens when they become Catholic?” hitter over there. :whacky: Which is clearly less effective. :yup:

 

[montanaman]

~chuckle~ Nah…I’m the grumpy, too-tired-for-games and bulldookey, “is that what happens when they become Catholic?” hitter over there. :whacky: Which is clearly less effective. :yup:

I HAVE enjoyed your DBA-esque use of colors, fonts, underlines and bolds, though. Who can resist the power of the rainbow?

 

[Angainor]

montanaman:

I’m beginning to realize that Protestants who have such a cavalier attitude toward what’s true or not really don’t care. Arrogance has blinded them.

Funny, “arrogance” is one for the first words that come to mind when I think of Catholicism. You know, it knows everything and all.

montanaman:

And that’s why you play Russian roulette with your salvation. When a Protestant sect merely says “Meh” when it comes to the efficacy of something like baptism, it runs the risk of being wrong.

Sorry, I don’t see how lack of assurance of certain knowlege necessarily leads to arrogance, or cavalier attitude.

 

[Philthy]

Giver:

I can appreciate wanting to accept the Church’s teaching and not go to Jesus to find out what if anything should be lived differently.

I dont see the dichotomy between “wanting to accept the Church” and “going to Jesus” that you have inferred. All I see is just another false accusation which, despite all your chatter of sinlessness, reveals something different.

Giver:

A person doesn’t have to really concern him or herself, if something is right or wrong, that has already been determined. The Church say it’s all right to occasionally commit sin,

Here again you sin with another false testimony. You lack the humility to admit that you don’t know very much about the Catholic Church. The Church makes no such claim that it is “all right to sin”. It is, perhaps, your most idiotic claim to date - though the competition is impressive. Please produce one document from the Catholic Church which claims it is “all right to sin” or that "a person doesn’t really have to concern him…self ".
You are just making it up.

Giver:

all someone has to do is go to confession and they are in good shape until the next time. Also a person has much support, people telling them their OK doing some things that may not quite go along with Scripture. All anyone has to do is convince him or herself that the Church is right and that relives him or her of all responsibility.

Again, a very distorted view. We believe in the forgiveness of sins by virture of the atonement. We also beleive in prayer - everyday. Christ instructed us to specifically pray as follows: “forgive us our trespasses…” If Christ expected us to never sin, it makes no sense for him to provide such an example. Your view makes Christ a liar. I do believe that the degree to which we conform ourselves to Christ is the degree to which we will cease to sin, but, again, I don’t think it is instaneous - do you?(second time Ive asked you this)

Giver:

Yes I also wanted to accept the teaching I had been taught by the Catholic Church, and it was quite traumatic for me to discard much of what I had been taught.

I wish you would discard it all because none of it seems to be Catholic teaching…

Giver:

My mind went back and forth, about what is right and wrong, so much that Jesus had to tell me to quit trying to figure him out and just follow him. I lost the support of my six brothers and sisters, most of my friends, and lost a whole way of life that I had worked very hard to create for myself.

Sorry to hear that. Is there a point in bringing it up?

Giver:

Jesus said his people would hear his voice, but people have to want to hear him before they will, don’t you think?

What does Scripture reveal? I cant think of one example of someone NOT hearing Christ because they didn’t want to. Can you? On the contrary, I can think of a glaring example of someone who heard Christ even though they didn’t want to - Paul on the road to Damascus. Therefore, I would have to disagree with your speculative, fuzzy analysis.

Giver:

Now if they are afraid to ask him what is right and wrong, doesn’t that make you think maybe he or she knows they are not doing everything they should?

This question is a little confusing. Are you saying that the fear of asking Jesus what is right and wrong comes from them already knowing they are doing something wrong? Yes or no, please.
If not, please explain what you meant - it wasn’t worded clearly for me.

 

[MrS]

Eden:

I think you misunderstood my question. Kujo discredited the validity of what Church Fathers said in the 4th century because it is too far removed from the time of Christ. That’s why I wanted to know why we should listen to what he says about the Church in 2006. That’s even more removed from the time of Christ.

gotcha… and I was in agreement with you

 

[Philthy]

montanaman:

For Giver to be so wrong about a basic Catholic thing like Penance, it makes me doubt he was ever Catholic. In fact, I’d put money on it. I think he’s grasping for credibility by claiming to be an ex-Catholic.

Then again, most ex-Catholics had only the faintest clue about the Church when they left. It’s only after they’re safely embraced by their new church with the great band that they become Catholic “experts.”

Chinese Proverb:

Men are of 4 types:

1. 
   *]He who knows not, and knows that he knows not - he is a child, teach him
   *]He who knows not and knows not that he knows not - he is a fool, shun him
   *]He who knows and knows not that he knows - he is asleep, awaken him
   *]He who knows and knows that he knows - he is a king, follow him
   
   I will gladly relegate myself to the first category knowing full well that Christ calls us to be “children”.
   I won’t guess at Giver’s motives although your hunch may be correct, but he would appear to be category 2: Ignorant of his ignorance…

 

[Eden]

MrS:

gotcha… and I was in agreement with you

Just checking! Thanks.

 

[mmortal03]

Angainor:

Funny, “arrogance” is one for the first words that come to mind when I think of Catholicism. You know, it knows everything and all.Sorry, I don’t see how lack of assurance of certain knowlege necessarily leads to arrogance, or cavalier attitude.

First of all, for a religion to step beyond relativism and be an example of absolute truths, it has to claim on certain topics that it “knows it all,” otherwise it wouldn’t be absolute.

As for the “lack of assurance” part:

It doesn’t always happen, but I know how a lack of assurance of certain knowledge can lead to arrogance or a cavalier attitude, and that is best described by what I call a microcosm of a case described by followers of presuppositionalism (from keithdevens.com/wiki/Presuppositionalism):

“…the presuppositional conflict of worldviews, which points out that when two people disagree on fundamental issues, their disagreement is not merely a disagreement about facts, but how they look at and interpret the facts. So, no amount of new information alone can convince someone that their worldview is wrong. In Kuhn’s terms, you need a paradigm shift to be able to change worldviews.”

Replacing the word “worldview” with “denomination” you can see my point. A good example of this is when someone of another denomination continues to disregard the evidence they are presented by a member of another denomination based on their preconceptions. They often become arrogant or cavalier, and also start to become “deaf” to the new information presented.

For example of this type of situation, I have talked to Protestants in the past where once you start speaking about something that conflicts with what they have been indoctrinated with, they stop being logical and analytical, and instead start getting defensive, emotional, start disregarding the facts, and start repeating over and over particular Bible verses that back their viewpoint, without instead looking at the context of the verse or looking elsewhere in the Bible. They aren’t willing to see the possibility that they are wrong, regardless of the facts presented.

By the way, in my opinion, having knowledge and being arrogant is just as bad as not having knowledge and being arrogant. As it is a universal idea, I agree with you here: Arrogance in general is wrong.

Finally, absolutism should not be misinterpreted as arrongance. Taking an excerpt from US CATHOLIC NEWS - 10 Myths of Religious Freedom:

1. The myth of false humility: “We don’t know who’s right.”

Many today, thinking they are practicing intellectual humility, refuse to take a firm position on religious questions that are empirically unverifiable and prefer the comfortable stance of “open-mindedness.” A clear faith would leave them in the awkward position of saying, or at least tacitly implying, that other people are … wrong. We think it judgmental and discourteous to proclaim our religious beliefs as absolutely true, as if such religious conviction could only be the fruit of arrogance.

Yet humility doesn’t mean intellectual ambivalence. We can be convinced without thinking that we are therefore better than others. Our Catholic faith came to us as a free gift that we did nothing to merit, and has nothing to do with any supposed tribal superiority. With gratitude and confidence, we make the words of Dignitatis Humanae our own: “We believe that this one true religion subsists in the Catholic and Apostolic Church, to which the Lord Jesus committed the duty of spreading it abroad among all men”

 

[Douay-Rheims]

This is a little long, but worth the read. I have split it in to parts.

by Fr. Arnold Damen, S.J. (1815 - 1890)
Imprimatur: Michael Augustine, Archbishop of New York.

The Only Church That Christ Established Is The Catholic Church. “He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved, but he that believeth not shall be condemned.” [Mark 16:16].

I.
My Dearly Beloved Christians, from these words of our Divine Savior, it has already been proved to you, that faith is necessary for salvation. And without faith there is no salvation. Without faith there is no salvation. Read your own Protestant Bible [St. Mark 16:16], and you will find it stronger there than in the Catholic Bible.

Now then, what kind of faith must a man have to be saved? Will any faith do? Why, if any faith will do, the devil himself will be saved, for the Bible says the devils believe and tremble.

It is, therefore, not a matter of indifference what religion a man professes. He must profess the right and true religion, and without that, there is no hope of salvation. For it stands to reason, my dear people, that if God reveals a thing or teaches a thing, He wants you to believe it. Not to believe, is to insult God.

Doubting His word, or believing with doubt and hesitating, is an insult to God, because it is doubting His Sacred Word. We must, therefore, believe without doubting, without hesitating.

I have said, outside of the Catholic Church there is no divine faith. Some of our Protestant friends will be shocked at this, to hear me say that outside of the Catholic Church there is no divine faith, and that without faith there is no salvation. I will prove all I have said.

I have said that outside of the Catholic Church there can be no divine faith. What is divine faith? When we believe a thing upon the authority of God, and believe it without doubt, without hesitating. Now, all our separated brethren outside of the Catholic Church take the private interpretation of the Bible for their guide, but the private interpretation of the Bible can never give them divine faith.

Suppose for a moment, there is a Presbyterian, who reads his Bible. From the reading of his Bible he comes to the conclusion that Jesus Christ is God. Now, you know this is the most essential of all Christian doctrines, the foundation of all Christianity. From the reading of his Bible, he comes to the conclusion that Jesus Christ is God. And he is a sensible man, an intelligent man, and not a presumptuous man. And he says, "Here is my Unitarian neighbor, who is just as reasonable and intelligent as I am, as honest, as learned, and as prayerful as I am. And from the reading of the Bible, he comes to the conclusion that Christ is not God at all. “Now,” says he, “to the best of my opinion and judgment, I am right and my Unitarian neighbor is wrong. But after all,” says he, “I may be mistaken! Perhaps I have not the right meaning of the text, and if I am wrong, perhaps he is right after all. But, to the best of my opinion and judgment, I am right and he is wrong.”

On what does he believe? On what authority? On his own opinion and judgment. And what is that? A human opinion, human testimony, and therefore, a human faith. He cannot say positively, “I am sure, positively sure, as sure as there is a God in heaven, that this is the meaning of the text.” Therefore, he has no other authority but his own opinion and judgment, and what his preacher tells him. But the preacher is a smart man. There are many smart Unitarian preachers also, but that proves nothing. It is only human authority, and nothing else, and therefore, only human faith. What is human faith? Believing a thing upon the testimony of man. Divine faith is believing a thing on the testimony of God.

II.
The Catholic has divine faith, and why? Because the Catholic says, “I believe in such and such a thing.” Why? “Because the Church teaches me so.” And why do you believe the Church? "Because God has commanded me to believe the teaching of the Church. And we are taught by St. Peter, in his epistle, “No prophecy of Scripture is made by private interpretation … for the unlearned and unstable twist … Scriptures … to their own descruction.”

That is strong language, my dear people, but that is the language of St. Peter, the head of the Apostles. The unlearned and unstable twist the Bible to their own damnation! And yet, the Bible is the book of God, the language of inspiration, when we have a true Bible, as we Catholics have.

 

[Douay-Rheims]

III.
Now, we may say that Catholics acknowledge the Word of God, that it is the language of inspiration, and therefore, we are sure that we have the Word of God. But, my dear people, the very best thing may be abused, and therefore, our Divine Savior has given us a living teacher, to give us the true meaning of the Bible.

And He has provided a teacher with infallibility. And this was absolutely necessary, for without infallibility, we could never be sure of our faith. There must be an infallibility. And we see that in every well-ordered government, in every government, in England, in the United States, and in every country, empire and republic, there is a Constitution and a supreme law.

But you are not at liberty to explain the Constitution and supreme law as you think proper. For then, there would be no more law if every man were allowed to explain the law and Constitution as he should think proper.

Therefore, in all governments there is a supreme judge and supreme court, and to the supreme judge is referred all different understandings of the law and the Constitution. By the decisions of the supreme judge all have to abide, and if they did not abide by that decision, my dear people, there would be no law any more, but anarchy, disorder and confusion.

Again, suppose for a moment that the Blessed Savior has been less wise than human governments. That He had not provided for the understanding of His Constitution, and of His Law of the Church of God. If He had not, my dear people, it would never have stood as it has stood for the last eighteen hundred and fifty-four years. He has then established a Supreme Court, a Supreme Judge in the Church of the Living God.

IV.
It is admitted on all sides, by Protestants and Catholics alike, that Christ has established a Church. And strange to say, all our Protestant friends acknowledge, too, that he has established only one Church, only one Church. For whenever Christ speaks of His Church, it is always in the singular. Bible readers, remember that. My Protestant friends, pay attention. He says, “Hear the Church,” not hear the churches. “I have built My Church upon a rock,” not My churches.

Whenever He speaks, whether in figures or parables of His Church, He always conveys to the mind a oneness, a union, a unity.

He speaks of His Church as a sheepfold, in which there is but one shepherd, that is the head of all. And the sheep are made to follow his voice, “Other sheep I have who are not of this fold.” One fold, you see. He speaks of His Church as of a kingdom, in which there is but one king to rule all. And He speaks of His Church as a family in which there is but one father at the head. He speaks of His Church as a tree, and all the branches of that tree are connected with the trunk, and the trunk with the roots, and Christ is the root. The trunk is Peter and the Popes, the large branches are the bishops, the smaller branches the priests, and the fruit upon that tree are the faithful throughout the world. The branch, says He, that is cut off from that tree shall wither away, produce no fruit, and is only fit to be cast into the fire, that is, damnation.

This is plain speaking, my dear people, but there is no use in covering the truth. I want to speak the truth to you, as the Apostles preached it in their time: No salvation outside of the Church of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

 

[Douay-Rheims]

V.
Now, which is that Church? There are now three hundred and fifty different Protestant churches in existence, and almost every year one or two more are added. Besides this number, there is the Catholic Church.

Now, which of all these various churches is the one true Church of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, for all claim to be the Church of Jesus?

But, my dear beloved people, it is evident no church can be the Church of Jesus except the one that was established by Jesus. And when did Jesus establish His Church? When? When He was here upon earth. And how long ago is it that Christ was upon earth? You know our Christian era dates from Him. He was born many centuries ago. That is an historical fact admitted by all. He lived on earth thirty-three years. That was about nineteen centuries before our time. That is the time Christ established His Church on earth. Any Church, that has not existed this long, is not the Church of Jesus Christ, but is the institution or invention of some man, but not of God, not of Christ.

Now, where is the Church and which is the Church that has existed this long? All history informs you, it is the Catholic Church. She, and she only, among all Christian denominations on the face of the earth, has existed so long. All history, bears testimony to this, not only Catholic history, but Pagan history, Jewish history and Protestant history, indirectly.

The history of all nations, of all people, bears testimony that the Catholic Church is the oldest and the first. It is the one established by our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

If there be any Protestant preacher who can prove that the Catholic Church has come into existence since that time, let him come to see me, and I will give him a thousand dollars. My dear preachers, here is a chance of making money, a thousand dollars for you.

Not only all history, but all the monuments of antiquity bear testimony to this, and all the nations of the earth proclaim it. Call on one of your preachers and ask him which was the first church, the first Christian Church. Was it the Presbyterian, the Episcopalian, the Church of England, the Methodist, the Universalist or the Unitarian? And they will answer you, it was the Catholic Church.

But, my dear friend, if you admit that the Catholic Church is the first and the oldest, the Church established by Christ, why are you not a Catholic? To this they answer that the Catholic Church has become corrupted, has fallen into error, and therefore, it was necessary to establish a new church. A new church, a new religion.

And to this we answer, if the Catholic Church had been once the true church, then she is still true, and shall be the true Church of God to the end of time, or Jesus Christ has deceived us.

Hear me Jesus, hear what I say! I say, that if the Catholic Church now, in the nineteenth century, is not the true Church of God as she was 1854 years ago, then I say, Jesus, Thou hast deceived us and Thou art an impostor! And if I do not speak the truth, Jesus, strike me dead in this pulpit. Let me fall dead in this pulpit, for I do not want to be a preacher of a false religion!

 

[Douay-Rheims]

VI.
I will prove what I have said. If the Catholic Church has been once the true Church of God, as admitted by all, then she is the true Church still, and shall be the true Church of God until the end of time. For Christ has promised that the gates of hell shall not prevail against the Church. He says that He has built it upon a rock, and that the gates of hell shall never prevail against it.

Now, my dear people, if the Catholic Church has fallen into error, then the gates of hell have prevailed against her. And if the gates of hell have prevailed against her, then Christ has not kept his promise. Then He has deceived us, and if He has deceived us, then He is an impostor! If He be an impostor, then He is not God, and if He be not God, then all Christianity is a cheat and an imposition.

Again, in St. Matthew, 28:19-20. Our Divine Savior says to His Apostles: “Go ye, therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, teaching them to observe whatsoever I have commanded you. Lo,” says He, “I, Jesus, The Son of the Living God, I, the Infinite Wisdom, the Eternal Truth, am with you all days, even until the end of the world.”

Christ, then, solemnly swears that He shall be with His Church all days to the end of time, to the consummation of the world. But Christ cannot remain with the Church that teaches error, or falsehood, or corruption. If, therefore, the Catholic Church has fallen into error and corruption, as our Protestant friends say she has, then Christ must have abandoned her. If so, He has broken His oath. If He has broken His oath He is a perjurer, and there is no Christianity at all. Again, our Divine Savior [St. John, 14th chapter] has promised that He would send to His Church the Spirit of Truth, to abide with her forever. If, then, the Holy Ghost, the Spirit of Truth, teaches the Church all truth and teaches her all truth forever, then there never has been, and never can be, one single error in the Church of God. For where there is all truth, there is no error whatsoever.

Christ has solemnly promised that He will send to the Church the Spirit of Truth, who shall teach all truth forever. Therefore, there has never been a single error in the Church of God, or Christ has failed in His promises if there has.

Again, Christ commands us to hear and believe the teachings of the Church in all things, at all times and in all places. He does not say hear the Church for a thousand years or for fifteen hundred years, but hear the Church, without any limitation, without any reservation, or any restriction of time whatever. That is, at all times, in all things until the end of time. And he that does not hear the Church let him be unto thee, says Christ, as a heathen and as a publican. Therefore, Christ says that those who refuse to hear the Church must be looked upon as heathens, and what is a heathen? One that does not worship the true God. And a publican is a public sinner. This is strong language. Could Christ command me to believe the Church if the Church could have led me astray, or could lead me into error? If the teaching of the Church be corrupt, could He, the God of truth, command me without any restriction or limitation to hear and believe the teachings of the Church which He has established?

Again, Our Divine Savior commands me to hear and believe the teaching of the Church in the same manner as if He Himself were to speak to us. “He that heareth you, heareth Me,” says He to the Apostles, “And he that despiseth you, despiseth Me.” So when I believe what the Church teaches, I believe what God teaches. If I refuse what the Church teaches, I refuse what God teaches.

So that Christ has made the Church the organ by which He speaks to man. He tells us positively that we must believe the teaching of the Church as if He Himself were to speak to us.

Therefore, says St. Paul, in his Epistle to Timothy, “The Church is the ground”, that is, the strong foundation, “and the pillar of the truth.” Take the ground or foundation of this edifice away, and it crumbles down. So with regard to these pillars, upon which the roof rests, take them away and the roof will fall in. So St. Paul says, “The Church is the ground and the pillar of truth,” and the moment you take away the authority of the Church of God you induce all kinds of errors and blasphemous doctrines. Do we not see it?