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Eden
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I did in post #402.
This is something the devil would love every Christian to believe.
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geno75
Guest
So is Jesus foreshadowing the vatican city, or giving an example on how we the believers are the light of the world?
One unified church throughout the world, your right. One church thats gospel is stylized in the greco/roman part of the world, no.
I respect any authority from any church in Christ. We must remain unified.
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Eden
Guest
Here it is in a nutshell: The Blood of Jesus ensured Salvation is possible. We as individuals have the freewill to reject that gift.
This article may help you better understand what we believe about Salvation:
catholic.com/thisrock/2005/0502sbs.asp
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Eden
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A quick read for Protestants:
“Where We Got the Bible: Our Debt to the Catholic Church”
chantcd.com/doct/catholic_bible.htm
Martin Luther–wrote in his Commentary on St. John: ``We are compelled to concede to the Papists that they have the Word of God, that we received it from them, and that without them we should have no knowledge of it at all.’’
No.
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Eden
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The apostles did not want? The apostles were guided by the Holy Spirit. Peter as the one on whom Jesus built the Church was the will of God, not the apostles. Why do you “firmly believe” what the apostles wanted or did not want?
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Eden
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Don’t you belong to one of those American “stylized” churches like “nondenominational”?
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Eden
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If only Martin Luther had ended his life with these sentiments.
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Philthy
Guest
Why are talking and not providing Scripture for your allegations? Are you talking about the selection of Matthias? You think that one example where the Apostles “chose lots” to fulfill a prophecy is meant to be our guiding light from Scripture for our daily lives?
In addition to being ridiculous, that only leaves us reading the OT for guidance. Sorry but you will have to do better than that, and you can’t.
This is not a sentence. It is a meaningless sequence of words - please try and rewrite it.
Most of them couldnt write - they were illiterate. But the truth is that we don’t know what happened - Scripture doesnt tell us - you are just guessing.
I suppose it would depend on the length of the message, but one thing is for certain: I would tell people even if I did write it down.
I don’t think your characterization of a “message from heaven” is anything like the reality experienced by the Apostles. Paul doesnt seem to realize that he is writing “Scripture” - he’s just trying to keep people in line with his teachings and dealing with situations as they arise. Some of he letters from the Church Fathers seem identical in approach, and they are not Scripture.
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DARichards
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Geno,
The problem with this argument is that the Sola Scriptura argument was not even used in the Old Testament. If you remember, the people would go to Moses, then Moses would seek the Lord and bring an answer back to the people. This early practice of “ex-cathedra” was even admonished by Christ in Matthew chaper 23:
1 Then Jesus spoke to the crowds and to his disciples,
2 saying, ]"The scribes and the Pharisees have taken their seat on the chair of Moses.
3 Therefore, do and observe all things whatsoever they tell you, but do not follow their example. For they preach but they do not practice.
You are misunderstanding the purpose of Sola Scriputura. Here is the definition from the Westminster Catechism:
**IX. The infallible rule of interpretation of Scripture is the Scripture itself: and therefore, when there is a question about the true and full sense of any Scripture (which is not manifold, but one), it must be searched and known by other places that speak more clearly.
X. The supreme judge by which all controversies of religion are to be determined, and all decrees of councils, opinions of ancient writers, doctrines of men, and private spirits, are to be examined, and in whose sentence we are to rest, can be no other but the Holy Spirit speaking in the Scripture.**
How do you prove from Scripture this fact?
This is no small issue. It is the basis of how you determine your faith. Therefore Sola Scriptura is not important enough for the Lord to directly instruct in, but only to strongly imply it.
No they didn’t. They saw Christ as the fulfillment of the Old Testament, but they received the Word of God orally from Christ. They then wrote what the Holy Spirt brought to their mind and inspired them to write. But again, nowhere do any of the Apostles claim that their letters or the accumulation of all their letters are to be the sole basis of the faith for those that come after them. There is not even a “divinely inspired table of contents” that would list for us what books we were even to include in Scripture.
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Eden
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You’re using the Gregorian calendar to determine that, right? http://bestsmileys.com/lol/10.gif
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Pax
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You may be on to something in both statements.
I find your term “stylized” to be rather interesting as well as your reference to geography. Neither has much to do with it. We are talking about one church and unity. We are talking about what scripture says about it. We are talking about what Jesus wants and expects in the way of unity. We are talking about why that unity is important. We are talking about how unity was established. We are talking about how that unity can be achieved and how it is maintained.
The problem is that there are divisions and a manifest lack of unity.
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Angainor
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That is an untruth.
Let me give an example. Sir Issac Newton believed there were absolute laws of nature that govern the movement of objects. Because he admitted that he did not know what those laws were did not make him a relativist. He worked hard to discover what those laws were. Even when he gained an understanding of those laws, he did not have any assurance of certain knowledge that he was right. This also does not make him a relativist. (It turned out he was mostly right. Einstein added to the understandng of the absolute laws of nature). Newton believed in absolute laws, even when he only had a partial unassured understanding of those absolute laws.
And you think… Catholicism is somehow… immune this phenomenon?
That’s not me. I take a firm position. However… If I don’t shout from the rooftops that everyone else is wrong, there is a reason for that.I care very little if I am judged by you or by any human court; indeed, I do not even judge myself. My conscience is clear, but that does not make me innocent. It is the Lord who judges me. Therefore judge nothing before the appointed time; wait till the Lord comes. He will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will expose the motives of men’s hearts. At that time each will receive his praise from God. 1 Corinthians 4:3-5
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kujo313
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Let me jump into this thread.
Jesus Forbids Sectarianism
Mark 9
38 Now John answered Him, saying, “Teacher, we saw someone who does not follow us casting out demons in Your name, and we forbade him because he does not follow us.”
39 But Jesus said, “Do not forbid him, for no one who works a miracle in My name can soon afterward speak evil of Me.
40 For he who is not against us is on our side.
I believe that there are some God-loving Catholics that are Spirit-filled. I believe that they are so focused on Jesus that they can’t talk about anybody else.
I also believe that there are some “protestants” that are not right at all. BUT there are some that ARE.
I believe that these people CAN get together and worship God together as one Body.
I believe that Jesus, in the red letters, kept telling His disciples and others to stay focused. (Luke 11:28 is one example)
Maybe one day we can worship the One to be focused on and leave our differences at home.
More than one says “we are right, they are wrong.” THIS is the division in the Body of Christ.
What keeps the Body together is what is already written and accepted as true.
The trouble is 2 Thessalonians 2:15
Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our epistle.
The key is “were taught”. The people there was taught EARLIER. Past tense. Paul did NOT say “Start a tradition later and keep it.”
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NPS
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Just these three quotes would be enough to get me running from the illogical idea of Sola Scriptura. It is so human—I don’t mean Protestant, I mean so like man to see something in the bible and infer all sorts of things. Things that fit a pre-conceived theory. With no knowledge of Jewish religious hierarchy or Apostolic iintentions, a person can take a single chapter in a book and extrapolate an entire history of Christianity with it. Then of course it is simply a must to throw in the “fact” that the Catholic Church “horded” the letters and books until the “real Christians” found them.
geno75:
geno75:
geno75:
I sometimes think of modern Christians as standing on the shoulders of the 2000 year old Church and peering over the fence into heaven. All the apostles, theologians, martyrs, missionaries and regular, faithful people all standing atop one another’s shoulders until finally—all the way at the top— is the modern Christian, with absolutely no idea, no thought, no care about how their faith, this tangible thing, got to this point. Then they look over the fence into heaven and say—“That’s easy!!! The truth is obvious!!”
How easy that is, huh? Anyone, any MAN can do a revisionist history anytime he pleases.
What is to stop anyone, any MAN from doing it any time he or she sees something that appeals to me me me me me! All for the good of mankind, mind you…
A serious, reverent human being, yet one with a lack of knowledge of church history and an avoidance, willingly or unwillingly, of contextual interpretation of passages can do some fairly serious damage to the word and intentions of God rather easily. Then have THAT person teach twenty others…four of which will not agree with the original teacher sometime over the following several years and go their own way. Multiply this by however many times you can imagine over the last 2000 years and you’d, no offense, have to think God an idiot for creating the religion in the first place. It’s not logical. It’s not sustainable. It’s not practical. I know humans. We’re not good enough for a job like that.
I sometimes think of modern Christians as standing on the shoulders of the 2000 year old Church and peering over the fence into heaven. All the apostles, theologians, martyrs, missionaries and regular, faithful people all standing atop one another’s shoulders until finally—all the way at the top— is the modern Christian, with absolutely no idea, no thought, no care about how their faith, this tangible thing, got to this point. Then they look over the fence into heaven and say—“That’s easy!!! The truth is obvious!!”
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Milliardo
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Not really: many of those who listened were illiterate to begin with, so they cannot even begin to check the Old Testament even if they wanted to. Also, circulation of Scripture in the early days of the Church was rather slow–no mass communication, and copying it would take a long while to do so. Thus, the most people do is rely on word of mouth, which is to say by oral preaching.
Most prophets had no chnace to write them down; many of the accounts about them were written later on by those who remembered them.
Many of the things I gleaned whiel reflecting on Scripture are in my head; I don’t write all of them down actually, but I do remember them and post it if the opportunity presents itself, but most of the time I have it in my head.
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kujo313
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Good thread you guys got here! Hey! Since we can’t get the DNA of the Old Testament people, clone them, and ask them what was written or said that we don’t know, why don’t we just go by what IS written?
Of the New Testament, same thing goes.
Hey! What do you know! It’s all inside a book called the Bible!
By studying what is in writting, we can have an idea of what the people of old had in mind.
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St.Eric
Guest
I agree! We also have some gems that are available to us that are not part of the canon of the bible but give us a good picture as to what the early church believed and how they worships. The dead sea scrolls, the didache, the epistles that weere not canonized and all of he writings of the early church fathers. Yes! Let’s take a serious look at what IS written. And then we will get a better picture of what the early church looked like and what the people of old had in mind.
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onesimplemind
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That argument might have some merit if the Bible were easy to understand and self-authenticating. For example, how do I know which books are supposed to be in the Bible?
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volzcpa
Guest
I think we need to be careful and discern the fruit of a person’s works and not just judge their faithfulness to Christ only by the appearances of their works.
Matt 7:20-23 "Thus you will know them by their fruits. "Not every one who says to me,
Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, **Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, `I never knew you; depart from me, you evildoers.’**
While it is true all baptized Christians are members of the Body of Christ , the center of Catholic worship is the Eucharist and it can only be shared by those who believe in the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist. And that applies to both Catholics and non-Catholics alike.
*1 Cor 11:27-29 Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of profaning the body and blood of the Lord. Let a man examine himself, and so eat of the bread and drink of the cup. **For any one who eats and drinks without discerning the body eats and drinks judgment upon himself. ** *
This is true unless our differences are in what we believe is the truth of Christ. The Catholic Church is the steward and protector of the truth as given to it by Christ when he said *Matt 16:19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven." *
1 Tim 3:15: if I am delayed, you may know how one ought to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth.
What is accepted by all Christians as true, may be hard to determine. Christ is the way the truth and the life and he did not give leeway for someone to accept only part of his truth (Matt 28: 19-20). Since all scripture is inspired by God (2 Tim 3:16) then everything in it must be true and therefore we must believe everything it teaches. God cannot teach error, so the scriptures must be inerrant (John 10: 35). However, men’s interpretations of scripture can be in error (2 Peter1:20-21).
*Matt 28: 19-20 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age."
2 Tim 3:16 **All scripture is inspired by God ** and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,
John 10: 35: If he called them gods to whom the word of God came (and scripture cannot be broken),
2 Peter1:20 First of all you must understand this, that no prophecy of scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation,*
The Catholic Church teaches Christ’s doctrine based upon Sacred Tradition, Apostolic Tradition. These Traditions are absolute and cannot be changed. There are also traditions of the Church, relating to discipline, which are intended to help the faithful come closer and more fully to God. These disciplinary traditions are not absolute and can be changed. So the Catholic Church does stand fast and hold the traditions the Apostles taught.
In summary, I do agree with the theme of your post, in that we sometimes are focused on who is right or wrong instead of sharing our beliefs with each other in Christ’s love and charity. Christ wants us to try to win souls, not arguments.
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onesimplemind
Guest
That “theory” is gaining ground among some evangelical circles, especially the ones I know. I wonder if it is a widespread idea?
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