Sola Scriptura--now I get

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A practical analogy would be the writing of the Constitution. When we ask an American, who has the authority the writers of the constitution or the Constitution in and of itself? One sees that there is a symbiotic relationship between the forefathers and the Constitution…furthermore, when asked what this Constitution means when it says something, guess what, the forefathers instituted the judicial branch to properly interpret this document.

From a Catholic perspective…Sola Scriptura is like the Constitution without the US Govt. Forget who wrote it, forget the safekeepers of its intent and go for it on your own.

Christ knew what he was doing when he established his church under the apostles that he chose. It was through this authoritative body that the Bible was born.

in XT.
 
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kujo313:
Good thread you guys got here! Hey! Since we can’t get the DNA of the Old Testament people, clone them, and ask them what was written or said that we don’t know, why don’t we just go by what IS written?
Of the New Testament, same thing goes.
Hey! What do you know! It’s all inside a book called the Bible!
By studying what is in writting, we can have an idea of what the people of old had in mind.
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even the part that says it is NOT all inside the bible???:hmmm:
 
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onesimplemind:
That “theory” is gaining ground among some evangelical circles, especially the ones I know. I wonder if it is a widespread idea?
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It is invading… give it a name, is birdbrain flu taken yet?
 
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AquinasXVI:
A practical analogy would be the writing of the Constitution. When we ask an American, who has the authority the writers of the constitution or the Constitution in and of itself? One sees that there is a symbiotic relationship between the forefathers and the Constitution…furthermore, when asked what this Constitution means when it says something, guess what, the forefathers instituted the judicial branch to properly interpret this document.
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You have fallen for a modern lie. The constitution was written in plain english so most people who made an effort to understand it could.
 
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kujo313:
Good thread you guys got here! Hey! Since we can’t get the DNA of the Old Testament people, clone them, and ask them what was written or said that we don’t know, why don’t we just go by what IS written? Of the New Testament, same thing goes. Hey! What do you know! It’s all inside a book called the Bible! By studying what is in writting, we can have an idea of what the people of old had in mind.
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We do have ideas - lots of different ideas - based on the same writings. The problem is that Scripture isnt particularly clear on certain points. And even when it is (ie “This is my body”) we will disagree on whether we should interpret what IS written literally or figuratively, as pertaining to a prior church age only or this church age, etc etc etc. There is no question God can write an instruction manual with lots of details if so chooses: look at numbers/deuteronomy/construction of the Ark of the Covenant/etc - it is perfectly clear that the NT is not so specific. It does not appear to be written as a “stand alone” instruction manual: it seems much more like bits and pieces which require explanation. In fact it is so variable in its interpretation, that many intelligent, sincere individuals who attempt to form a coherent theology of what it says come to opposing and contradictory opinions of some very BASIC elements of faith. You know all this as well as I do, you just don’t believe it really matters so long as you are trying your hardest to follow God. Am I correct?
Once you come to this realization, one logical approach is to look at some of the earliest extra-Scriptural writings of the first and second centuries by reliable people - some of whom were taught by the Apostles themselves. It is not meant to replace Scripture, such an an approach is a means of VALIDATING our interpretations of Scripture - big difference. If there is no evidence that anyone in the early Church ever held an interpretation of Scripture that I hold AND reliable “presbyters” held positions OPPOSING what I hold, then I must choose to either
A) place myself above them and keep my interpretation or
B) humble myself and my attachments to my interpretations and, potentially, the authors of them - and reject my interpretations.
Humility and intellect will bring one to follow choice B. Again, Am I wrong?
 
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Philthy:
We do have ideas - lots of different ideas - based on the same writings. The problem is that Scripture isnt particularly clear on certain points. And even when it is (ie “This is my body”) we will disagree on whether we should interpret what IS written literally or figuratively, as pertaining to a prior church age only or this church age, etc etc etc. There is no question God can write an instruction manual with lots of details if so chooses: look at numbers/deuteronomy/construction of the Ark of the Covenant/etc - it is perfectly clear that the NT is not so specific. It does not appear to be written as a “stand alone” instruction manual: it seems much more like bits and pieces which require explanation. In fact it is so variable in its interpretation, that many intelligent, sincere individuals who attempt to form a coherent theology of what it says come to opposing and contradictory opinions of some very BASIC elements of faith. You know all this as well as I do, you just don’t believe it really matters so long as you are trying your hardest to follow God. Am I correct?
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perhaps… but ALL of the Church agreed on what those verses meant until a disident priest (Luther) decided that he was an authority unto himself. By mid-16th century a book was published on the 200 meanings of This is My Body. go figure.

while protestant groups are numerous… they have a common belief… no Real Presence in the Eucharist.

How to finish off the Catholic Church… no Priest = no Eucharist = no Church. S/S removes not only the authority of the Magisterium. but the sacraments as well.

Sola Scriptura… one of man’s inventions to remove the Eucharist…and it ain’t gonna happen.
 
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Angainor:
You have fallen for a modern lie. The constitution was written in plain english so most people who made an effort to understand it could.
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So, since we can all understand it, why do we need judges to interpret it?
 
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Eden:
So, since we can all understand it, why do we need judges to interpret it?
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As a practical matter we need judges to settle disputes. But their word is not what makes the constitution say what is says. If they get the law wrong, then there exists an unreconciled injustice out there in the system. Do you not think that Roe v. Wade is an unreconciled injustice?

The injustice remains unreconciled until it is corrected. In the meantime, citizens are justified in taking certain corrective actions. One of the safeguards is the jury system. A jury can set a person free if the jury finds the reasons the government want to punish the accused are unconstitutional.

States would also be justified in civil disobediance of unconstitutional judical decisions. They generally don’t today for various reasons, mostly because most people believe the lie: “The Constitution says what the Supreme Court says it says.”
 
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Angainor:
As a practical matter we need judges to settle disputes.
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Correct - we need someone to settle disputes of interpretation.
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Angainor:
But their word is not what makes the constitution say what is says. If they get the law wrong, then there exists an unreconciled injustice out there in the system.
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Correct - they are fallible, but the best we have and we are bound to obey them. You are confusing moral justice with constitutionality, however - they deal with the latter.
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Angainor:
Do you not think that Roe v. Wade is an unreconciled injustice?
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Now you are confused. With respect to the Supreme Court, the question is not whether Roe v Wade is a moral injustice or not, the question is whether it is constitutional or not. Unfortunately the constitution is unclear on such topics - much like Scripture - and therefore we are left - as a practical matter - needing an authority to decide what the rule of law should be. They will not decide in an absolute sense whether something is moral or not, simply whether it is just within the realm of our constitution - big difference.
 
Philthy[color=navy:
[QUOTE]
Now you are confused. With respect to the Supreme Court, the question is not whether Roe v Wade is a moral injustice or not, the question is whether it is constitutional or not.
[/QUOTE]
The Constitution is clear. The Federal government has no power to tell the states what laws they can or cannot enforce regarding abortion.

The states would be within their rights to ignore Roe v Wade and enforce thier anti-abortion laws.
 
The Catholic Church teaches Christ’s doctrine based upon Sacred Tradition, Apostolic Tradition. These Traditions are absolute and cannot be changed. So the Catholic Church does stand fast and hold the traditions the Apostles taught.

I wouldn’t mind that IF it was the “Traditions” of the first apostles and not those of the 2nd centuries and then on.
 
Christ knew what he was doing when he established his church under the apostles that he chose. It was through this authoritative body that the Bible was born.

I stressed “this”. “THIS authoritative body”, the disciples that Jesus chose.

Nobody after that went back to what was written and said “that’s not what was said. That’s not what they did.”
Instead, they went off on tangents and accepted it as truth because Paul said to keep your traditions. If traditions AFTER the apostles are to be made and kept, then many of the Protestants are doing just that.
“No”, you say, “it’s not the traditions of the Catholic church.”
But what if one “tradition” within the Catholic church is wrong? Since it is accepted at truth, then the Catholic church cannot override itself because a house divided within itself cannot stand.
So if one tradition is wrong, it MUST be accepted as right because the Catholic church declared itself “true” based on "whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in Heaven. Even if the Catholic church in one subject is not following what Christ said, or His disciples wrote.
 
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MrS:
even the part that says it is NOT all inside the bible???:hmmm:
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Well, what part, written by the disciples, or somebody writing what they said, is NOT in the Bible?
Remember: I’m not refering to anybody who said something or wrote something after the disciples died.
 
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kujo313:
Christ knew what he was doing when he established his church under the apostles that he chose. It was through this authoritative body that the Bible was born.

I stressed “this”. “THIS authoritative body”, the disciples that Jesus chose.

Nobody after that went back to what was written and said “that’s not what was said. That’s not what they did.”
Instead, they went off on tangents and accepted it as truth because Paul said to keep your traditions. If traditions AFTER the apostles are to be made and kept, then many of the Protestants are doing just that.
“No”, you say, “it’s not the traditions of the Catholic church.”
But what if one “tradition” within the Catholic church is wrong? Since it is accepted at truth, then the Catholic church cannot override itself because a house divided within itself cannot stand.
So if one tradition is wrong, it MUST be accepted as right because the Catholic church declared itself “true” based on "whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in Heaven. Even if the Catholic church in one subject is not following what Christ said, or His disciples wrote.
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Truth never changes.

Jesus is the Truth

Jesus founded His Church which must contain only Truth.

No Traditions were “made” after the Apostles.

When the Apostles were given the promise and the power of binding and loosing, it came from Jesus.

If Scripture - anywhere - recinds that power, you have a serious point we need to address.

The power continues today through the unbroken chain of succession. We have it. No one else does.

Outside the Church, the best one can do is hope, not have.

by the way… binding and loosing does not equate with

expressing opinion
declaring a disipline
prefering an option
or
studing and developing an existing doctrine
 
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kujo313:
Well, what part, written by the disciples, or somebody writing what they said, is NOT in the Bible?
Remember: I’m not refering to anybody who said something or wrote something after the disciples died.
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not what I meant

you had said we should all go by what is written, and it is all written in the bible.

I agreed that we should accept what is in the bible,

incvluding the verses that tell us that NOT EVERYTHING IS IN THE BIBLE
 
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kujo313:
Well, what part, written by the disciples, or somebody writing what they said, is NOT in the Bible?
Remember: I’m not refering to anybody who said something or wrote something after the disciples died.
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Why do you accept the four gospels as the Word of God?

Why do you accept Acts as a work of Luke, and as the Word of God?

Why do you accept a short book like Jude as inerrant as Hebrews?

Did you personally hear from the human authors…or someone they personally taught… or someone they handed on the truth to… or someone who wrote down what an Apostle said… (we did)

Or did you accept Scripture as inerrant because your pastor told you so. (our Early Fathers support all Truth)

Or did you consider some one told him or her? (on their own authority)

Eventually we go all the way back to Jesus… but the only road back is by way of the Catholic Church.

The Catholic Bible is the Bible of the Catholic Church/

Your church ( and ALL others) are at best a church of the bible.

You might say “thank you” to Catholics for providing the basis (the Bible) of what you believe… but don’t wait for any “you’re welcome”

You have not used Scripture… you have abused it. It is our Book, not yours.
 
Jesus is the Truth

Jesus founded His Church which must contain only Truth.

No Traditions were “made” after the Apostles.

Introducing the “15 Promises of the Rosary”
(note:reciting it, or these promises are not a tradition during the apostles or is the Truth founded by Jesus.

The Fifteen Promises of the Rosary

Our Lady made these promises to Christians who faithfully pray the Rosary:
To all those who shall pray my Rosary devoutly, I promise my special protection and great graces.

Those who shall persevere in the recitation of my Rosary will receive some special grace.

The Rosary will be a very powerful armor against hell; it will destroy vice, deliver from sin and dispel heresy.

The rosary will make virtue and good works flourish, and will obtain for souls the most abundant divine mercies. It will draw the hearts of men from the love of the world and its vanities, and will lift them to the desire of eternal things. Oh, that souls would sanctify themselves by this means.

Those who trust themselves to me through the Rosary will not perish.

Whoever recites my Rosary devoutly reflecting on the mysteries, shall never be overwhelmed by misfortune. He will not experience the anger of God nor will he perish by an unprovided death. The sinner will be converted; the just will persevere in grace and merit eternal life.

Those truly devoted to my Rosary shall not die without the sacraments of the Church.

Those who are faithful to recite my Rosary shall have during their life and at their death the light of God and the plenitude of His graces and will share in the merits of the blessed.

I will deliver promptly from purgatory souls devoted to my Rosary.

True children of my Rosary will enjoy great glory in heaven.

What you shall ask through my Rosary you shall obtain.

To those who propagate my Rosary I promise aid in all their necessities.

I have obtained from my Son that all the members of the Rosary Confraternity shall have as their intercessors, in life and in death, the entire celestial court.

Those who recite my Rosary faithfully are my beloved children, the brothers and sisters of Jesus Christ.

Devotion to my Rosary is a special sign of predestination.

catholicity.com/prayersdevotions/rosarypromises.html

Sounds incredibly like

Isaiah 14:12-14

“ How you are fallen from heaven,
O Lucifer, son of the morning!
How you are cut down to the ground,
You who weakened the nations!
For you have said in your heart:
Code: 
  ‘ I will ascend into heaven,  
  I will exalt my throne above the stars of God; 
  I will also sit on the mount of the congregation 
  On the farthest sides of the north; 
    I will ascend above the heights of the clouds, 
  I will be like the Most High.’
And

Luke 4:8

Jesus answered, "It is written: 'Worship the Lord your God and serve him only.

Jesus took people’s focus off of Mary. The apostles took no actions to direct people to her, either.
The actions of the Savior and His disciples do not reflect what the Catholic church declared dogma over 1900 years later.
 
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