Sola Scriptura--now I get

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kujo313:
Jesus is the Truth

Jesus founded His Church which must contain only Truth.

No Traditions were “made” after the Apostles.

Introducing the “15 Promises of the Rosary”
(note:reciting it, or these promises are not a tradition during the apostles or is the Truth founded by Jesus.

The Fifteen Promises of the Rosary

Our Lady made these promises to Christians who faithfully pray the Rosary:
To all those who shall pray my Rosary devoutly, I promise my special protection and great graces.

Those who shall persevere in the recitation of my Rosary will receive some special grace.

The Rosary will be a very powerful armor against hell; it will destroy vice, deliver from sin and dispel heresy.

The rosary will make virtue and good works flourish, and will obtain for souls the most abundant divine mercies. It will draw the hearts of men from the love of the world and its vanities, and will lift them to the desire of eternal things. Oh, that souls would sanctify themselves by this means.

Those who trust themselves to me through the Rosary will not perish.

Whoever recites my Rosary devoutly reflecting on the mysteries, shall never be overwhelmed by misfortune. He will not experience the anger of God nor will he perish by an unprovided death. The sinner will be converted; the just will persevere in grace and merit eternal life.

Those truly devoted to my Rosary shall not die without the sacraments of the Church.

Those who are faithful to recite my Rosary shall have during their life and at their death the light of God and the plenitude of His graces and will share in the merits of the blessed.

I will deliver promptly from purgatory souls devoted to my Rosary.

True children of my Rosary will enjoy great glory in heaven.

What you shall ask through my Rosary you shall obtain.

To those who propagate my Rosary I promise aid in all their necessities.

I have obtained from my Son that all the members of the Rosary Confraternity shall have as their intercessors, in life and in death, the entire celestial court.

Those who recite my Rosary faithfully are my beloved children, the brothers and sisters of Jesus Christ.

Devotion to my Rosary is a special sign of predestination.

catholicity.com/prayersdevotions/rosarypromises.html

Sounds incredibly like

Isaiah 14:12-14

“ How you are fallen from heaven,
O Lucifer, son of the morning!
How you are cut down to the ground,
You who weakened the nations!
For you have said in your heart:
Code: 
  ‘ I will ascend into heaven,  
  I will exalt my throne above the stars of God; 
  I will also sit on the mount of the congregation 
  On the farthest sides of the north; 
    I will ascend above the heights of the clouds, 
  I will be like the Most High.’
And

Luke 4:8

Jesus answered, "It is written: 'Worship the Lord your God and serve him only.

Jesus took people’s focus off of Mary. The apostles took no actions to direct people to her, either.
The actions of the Savior and His disciples do not reflect what the Catholic church declared dogma over 1900 years later.
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When I was in High School our rifle team was rather good… state champs… came from practice, and having the right equipment.

Glad you were not on the team… once again you completely missed the target.

Apostolic Tradition is not traditon
Disipline in not doctrine
Worship is not veneration
God’s works and holy creations (Mary and the Saints) are not God

and
The Rosary (praying the Gospel, and meditating on Jesus) is not anything you understand anything about.
 
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Eden:
Good argument for the Magisterium.
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Way to go! You completely took this out of context…

Did you miss the part about states being within their rights to ignore decisions like Roe v Wade if the state judges the Supreme Court ruled incorrectly? Do you think congregations could ignore “the Magisterium” if the congregation tested it false?
 
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Angainor:
A jury can judge a law to be unjust and set an accused person free who would otherwise be convicted under the law. A law is deemed unjust if it is against higher law (the constitution) or the highest law (natural law).

The other links are similar examples of the people finding a law unjust and not obeying it.

The point is that American Constitutionalism is not like Catholicism. The clergy proclaim the truth. The laity cannot dissent, that is, the laity cannot judge for themselves if the clergy’s proclamations are in accordance with highest law.
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I am new to Catholic.com, this thread, and in fact to Catholicism. I will be joining the Church at Easter at the conclusion of my RCIA and could not be happier.

Anyway, I do have a couple comments, but first would like to thank Angainor for their (name removed by moderator)ut. This is the type of discussion which only furthers our belief in Christ as we examine and affirm our love of God.

Angainor:

In regards to the laity dissenting as to what the clergy decide, I would simply respond that they are true Christians, constant in their decision to follow tradition and the word of God, and that as Catholics, since lay and clergy alike are of the same belief, there is no cause for disagreement. The bible is tradition in it’s purest and most sincere form. Dissention would only be necessary if they were contradicting what has been set down as right from the teachings of Christ. They don’t and therefore, dissention is inherently unnecessary.

We as a church, a community in Christ, and a faith are all “on the same page”. What is right is right and what is wrong is wrong. The Pope and the clergy are the shepherds of Christ, helping keep our faith in tact and constant. Living in the world of 2006, you don’t think Catholics question things? We are human and question things every day. The one thing we don’t question, is the consistency and constancy of our faith which is based on the teachings of Christ and the bible.

However, there is most assuredly dissention in the Catholic Church; albeit, not in our faith or practice, but perhaps in administration or other matters. The key, once again, is that none of this has to do with our fundamental faith or our belief in what is right and wrong or what Christ calls us to do.

I think, that the one point here which needs to be really clarified, is that lIfe without authority breeds chaos. One only has to see children without guidance to understand this fact. Are we not all the children of God?

To further our discussion point, one only has to view the Epicopal Church as well as many other main stream practiced faiths to see that. The Epicopal Church is now in complete turmoil over the topic of Homosexuality. I was Epicopal prior to my becoming a Catholic. This particular faith (Which has many govenors but no single central authority) as well as many faiths that have no “Sprititual authority” or guidance over their collective beliefs, are questioning this topic.

Why would you. The bible says no. It is as simple as that. We are told to condemn the sin and love the sinner. However, these “Christians” are changing their interpretation of the bible, changing what they see as the teachings of Christs, and changing their own doctrines and dogmas to become more appealing to the masses and to suit their immediate needs. All this to reflect the changes in society.

Chaos without authority.

The same can be said of Christianity in general. Without authority there is chaos and division. The message of the Catholic clergy has remained constant for years. I was in a conversation a few weeks ago with an acquaintance and we were discussing my beliefs and their lack of one.

My final response to them was, that if one views what is considered right and wrong in society, these basic laws are based on scripture and fundamentally Christian. What is deemed right and wrong has not changed, only peoples interpretations on how to make these principals meet their personal needs. And that is the key. The bible, God’s word and Christ’s teachings don’t change. They are the only contant in this world of ours.

God Bless.
 
Angainor said:
**Way to go! You completely took this out of context…
**
Did you miss the part about states being within their rights to ignore decisions like Roe v Wade if the state judges the Supreme Court ruled incorrectly? Do you think congregations could ignore “the Magisterium” if the congregation tested it false?
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kinda like the pot calling the…http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/904.gif

how did we get from SolaS to Newton… to the US Constitution… to RoeVWade??
 
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ClaytonGarrett:
I am new to Catholic.com, this thread, and in fact to Catholicism. I will be joining the Church at Easter at the conclusion of my RCIA and could not be happier.

since lay and clergy alike are of the same belief, there is no cause for disagreement. The bible is tradition in it’s purest and most sincere form.

Living in the world of 2006, you don’t think Catholics question things? We are human and question things every day. The one thing we don’t question, is the consistency and constancy of our faith which is based on the teachings of Christ and the bible.

However, there is most assuredly dissention in the Catholic Church; albeit, not in our faith or practice, but perhaps in administration or other matters. The key, once again, is that none of this has to do with our fundamental faith or our belief in what is right and wrong or what Christ calls us to do.

I think, that the one point here which needs to be really clarified, is that lIfe without authority breeds chaos. One only has to see children without guidance to understand this fact. Are we not all the children of God?

The same can be said of Christianity in general. Without authority there is chaos and division. The message of the Catholic clergy has remained constant for years.

, that if one views what is considered right and wrong in society, these basic laws are based on scripture and fundamentally Christian. What is deemed right and wrong has not changed, only peoples interpretations on how to make these principals meet their personal needs. And that is the key. The bible, God’s word and Christ’s teachings don’t change. They are the only contant in this world of ours.

God Bless.
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Welcome Home

While you may not be a Catholic…yet… you are surly more Catholic than so many in the Church who have not half the well formed conscience and insight you have just displayed.

Reading your post was a pleasure… re-reading even more so.

God Bless
 
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Angainor:
Way to go! You completely took this out of context…

Did you miss the part about states being within their rights to ignore decisions like Roe v Wade if the state judges the Supreme Court ruled incorrectly? Do you think congregations could ignore “the Magisterium” if the congregation tested it false?
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I used only the first sentence. Did you notice that? The apostles were the “judges” guided by the Holy Spirit on matters of faith. But I don’t recall the apostles being taught by Jesus that they would need a majority vote from the members of the Church. If you show me when Christ makes his Church a democracy, I’ll be the first to give you a high five.
 
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Eden:
I used only the first sentence. Did you notice that? The apostles were the “judges” guided by the Holy Spirit on matters of faith. But I don’t recall the apostles being taught by Jesus that they would need a majority vote from the members of the Church. If you show me when Christ makes his Church a democracy, I’ll be the first to give you a high five.
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True. Very True.

My wife and I are constantly amazed at how many people pick up the bible and come up with new meanings and revalations but who have little or no faith background themselves.

And they always manage to get an audience.
 
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Angainor:
You have fallen for a modern lie. The constitution was written in plain english so most people who made an effort to understand it could.
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By this statement are you clear that you’re agreeing to the opposite system…since it’s in plain English why don’t we get rid of the judicial system and apply this as the spirit of the forefathers guide us individually?

Essentially this is analogous to your belief of Sola Scriptura.

in XT.
 
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Angainor:
The Constitution is clear. The Federal government has no power to tell the states what laws they can or cannot enforce regarding abortion.

The states would be within their rights to ignore Roe v Wade and enforce thier anti-abortion laws.
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This is not a done deal at all. States’ rights have eroded considerably beneath the wheels of Federal steam roller. Furthermore, the US Congress has abdicated much of its power and authority to the Courts.

It can also be argued that the Constitution is not clear. Read the Establishment Clause and then tell me where you see and understand what is currently referred to as “separation of church and state.” This is an area that the Constitution has been twisted, abused, misunderstood, and utterly misinterpreted. If that isn’t enough, read Doe vs. Bolton and Roe vs. Wade and see how the Court interpreted the Constitution and the right to privacy as it is to be applied to abortion. Moreover, look at their discussion of “penumbras” and “emanations.” They have made that which should be clear, most unclear and there are tons of people that agree with them.

The analogy between the Court and Constitution vis-a-vis the Church and the Bible can be helpful as far as it goes. Naturally the Court does not have and does not claim to have infallibility over interpreting the Constitution. It just acts like it, and then humbly claims to be the highest authority in interpreting it. The Church claims infallibility in the areas of “faith and morals” but does not attempt to infallibly interpret all of scripture. When the Church does make an infallible pronouncement on the meaning of scripture such as “This is my body,” the Church is not only the highest authority but it is also the infallible authority because it is protected by the Holy Spirit from making errors in matters of faith.

One thing we can all agree on is that the members of the Supreme Court would be well served asking for guidance from the Holy Spirit. They wouldn’t be infallible but they might find themselves avoiding horrible decisions like Roe vs. Wade.
 
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AquinasXVI:
By this statement are you clear that you’re agreeing to the opposite system…since it’s in plain English why don’t we get rid of the judicial system and apply this as the spirit of the forefathers guide us individually?

Essentially this is analogous to your belief of Sola Scriptura.

in XT.
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Good one 👍
 
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MrS:
kinda like the pot calling the…http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/904.gif

how did we get from SolaS to Newton… to the US Constitution… to RoeVWade??
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That’s what happens when there is really no evidence or logic for something but is held on to as if their spiritual life depended on it.
When there isn’t any THING to focus on it just goes kookoo. Without, say, even one passage to hang an apologetic hat on, you’ll inevitably end up with all kinds of gyrations, stretches, sidestepping, and, of course…molestations by priests. ( 😉 )

Can anyone here point out a similar thread that didn’t go spinning off in different directions? I’m not making a joke—Is there a more cogent argument on here somewhere for Sola Scriptura?
 
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NPS:
That’s what happens when there is really no evidence or logic for something but is held on to as if their spiritual life depended on it.
When there isn’t any THING to focus on it just goes kookoo.
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No THING to focus on? What THING is your focus?

If something has gotten you to focus on someTHING other than the one true God then I would be afraid this might be a small step towards idolatry.
 
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Angainor:
No THING to focus on? What THING is your focus?

If something has gotten you to focus on someTHING other than the one true God then I would be afraid this might be a small step towards idolatry.
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No focus to the argument, friend. There is no focus whatsoever to the Sola Scriptura argument. That’s why it goes spinning around more than my neighbors cat when she get’s the toy out.
If there was even one solid passage to support the idea there wouldn’t be all this rigamarole. There’s obviously no focus to this debate. It has gone on for 6 pages without any s.s. proponent making any headway past the O.P.
 
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AquinasXVI:
By this statement are you clear that you’re agreeing to the opposite system…since it’s in plain English why don’t we get rid of the judicial system and apply this as the spirit of the forefathers guide us individually?

Essentially this is analogous to your belief of Sola Scriptura.

in XT.
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I would be more than happy to live under a system of Church law that is comparible to the Americian judicial system. Get me before a jury of my peers (i.e. the layity) at my heresy trial.

You are taking the analogy too far. Judges are necessary in our system, but there are checks and balances on their power. The Americian government is supposed to be “of the people, by the people, and for the people”.
 
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NPS:
No focus to the argument, friend. There is no focus whatsoever to the Sola Scriptura argument. That’s why it goes spinning around more than my neighbors cat when she get’s the toy out.
If there was even one solid passage to support the idea there wouldn’t be all this rigamarole. There’s obviously no focus to this debate. It has gone on for 6 pages without any s.s. proponent making any headway past the O.P.
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That’s fine, no focus in Sola Scriptura. But you avoided my question.

What THING are you focused on?
 
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