Sola Scriptura--now I get

[Angainor]

NPS:

No focus to the argument, friend. There is no focus whatsoever to the Sola Scriptura argument. That’s why it goes spinning around more than my neighbors cat when she get’s the toy out.
If there was even one solid passage to support the idea there wouldn’t be all this rigamarole. There’s obviously no focus to this debate. It has gone on for 6 pages without any s.s. proponent making any headway past the O.P.

I’ll summarize. Not in six pages, but in a few lines.

The Bible is a reliable testament to the truth. Agree or disagree?*

The Bible tells me not to disregard other testaments to the truth.Do not put out the Spirit’s fire; do not treat prophecies with contempt. 1 Thessalonians 5:19-20

However, the Bible warns me not to simply take the prophet’s word on ito not put out the Spirit’s fire; do not treat prophecies with contempt. Test everything. Hold on to the good. Avoid every kind of evil. 1 Thessalonians 5:19-22

So, Scriptura is not exactly my Sola testament to the truth, but it is the Sola testament that I am willing to accept without the need for testing.

Thank you.

*I would go into the reasons why I believe the Bible is a reliable testament to the truth, but I think we agree on this point, so that would be a waste of time.

 

[St.Eric]

And now for something completely different…Back to the OP.

 

[NPS]

Angainor:

That’s fine, no focus in Sola Scriptura. But you avoided my question.

What THING are you focused on?

Right now I’m focused on your trying to bluff your way through this thing.

 

[kujo313]

Angainor:

Way to go! You completely took this out of context…

Did you miss the part about states being within their rights to ignore decisions like Roe v Wade if the state judges the Supreme Court ruled incorrectly? Do you think congregations could ignore “the Magisterium” if the congregation tested it false?

I think that the congregations SHOULD ignore the “magisterium” if it was proven false. We cannot test things against oral tradition because something passed on “orally” can get lost. But we CAN test things against the WRITTEN Word, which was writting by first-hand witnesses.

 

[onesimplemind]

Angainor:

I’ll summarize. Not in six pages, but in a few lines.

The Bible is a reliable testament to the truth. Agree or disagree?*

The Bible tells me not to disregard other testaments to the truth.Do not put out the Spirit’s fire; do not treat prophecies with contempt. 1 Thessalonians 5:19-20

However, the Bible warns me not to simply take the prophet’s word on ito not put out the Spirit’s fire; do not treat prophecies with contempt. Test everything. Hold on to the good. Avoid every kind of evil. 1 Thessalonians 5:19-22

So, Scriptura is not exactly my Sola testament to the truth, but it is the Sola testament that I am willing to accept without the need for testing.

Thank you.

*I would go into the reasons why I believe the Bible is a reliable testament to the truth, but I think we agree on this point, so that would be a waste of time.

The problem isn’t the Bible, at least the 73 book Bible, the problem is …

Your interpretation of Scripture is not a reliable testament of truth. Agree or disagree?

The Bible doesn’t actually tell you anything. The Bible is a book and this is how books work. YOU must read the Bible, process that information in your brain, and come up with a conclusion/ interpretation. Now lets see if your brain is right and something I shouldn’t show contempt.

I don’t have to take your word for anything. I get to test all things (1 Thessalonians 5:21 along with common sense). Since you are almost 2000 years removed from date of the writing of the first book in the New Testement, I get to test YOUR interpretation along with everyone else who believes in SS. What has been proven so far is that everyone who believes in SS has their own interpretation. One has to be right, or all have to be wrong. Is that one who is right YOU? The odds aren’t good.

I would like to know how you have the most correct interpretation of the Bible, and if you or your church has the most correct understanding of Christian faith, and I would like examples of people from the death of the last Apostle to 1500 a.d. who have had an interpretation of the Scripture and an understanding of Christian faith that is closely in common with yours(or your church’s).

 

[onesimplemind]

Angainor:

I would be more than happy to live under a system of Church law that is comparible to the Americian judicial system. Get me before a jury of my peers (i.e. the layity) at my heresy trial.

You are taking the analogy too far. Judges are necessary in our system, but there are checks and balances on their power. The Americian government is supposed to be “of the people, by the people, and for the people”.

Let’s take your analogy somewhere more interesting…

I wonder if Jesus said “The Kingdom of Heaven is like the future representative republic called the USA.”?

I wonder if in Heaven you get to vote for a new king? I wonder if the Democrats in Heaven are worried about the culture of corruption by the Republicans in Heaven? Does Jesus have to worry about campaign finance reform?

I wonder which is closer to the system of government in Heaven, the Catholic Church or the good ol’ USA?

 

[St.Eric]

kujo313:

I think that the congregations SHOULD ignore the “magisterium” if it was proven false. We cannot test things against oral tradition because something passed on “orally” can get lost. But we CAN test things against the WRITTEN Word, which was writting by first-hand witnesses.

How many translations has the WRITTEN word been through until it arrived in the version you are reading from?

Do you believe the Holy Spirit guided those people who translated the bible from the original language?

How can you be certain that the WRITTEN version of the bible you are reading is TRUE to the ORIGINAL text in which it was WRITTEN?

Think about it. And I encourage your response here on the open forum.

ps. I bet this post will not be awnsered. Either by Kujo or anyone else with his view.

 

[kujo313]

onesimplemind:

The problem isn’t the Bible, at least the 73 book Bible, the problem is …

Your interpretation of Scripture is not a reliable testament of truth. Agree or disagree?

The Bible doesn’t actually tell you anything. The Bible is a book and this is how books work. YOU must read the Bible, process that information in your brain, and come up with a conclusion/ interpretation. Now lets see if your brain is right and something I shouldn’t show contempt.

I don’t have to take your word for anything. I get to test all things (1 Thessalonians 5:21 along with common sense). Since you are almost 2000 years removed from date of the writing of the first book in the New Testement, I get to test YOUR interpretation along with everyone else who believes in SS. What has been proven so far is that everyone who believes in SS has their own interpretation. One has to be right, or all have to be wrong. Is that one who is right YOU? The odds aren’t good.

I would like to know how you have the most correct interpretation of the Bible, and if you or your church has the most correct understanding of Christian faith, and I would like examples of people from the death of the last Apostle to 1500 a.d. who have had an interpretation of the Scripture and an understanding of Christian faith that is closely in common with yours(or your church’s).

Why is it that Matthew records seeing only one angel while John records two? (Matthew 28: 1-8; John 20: 11-13. Luke 24:23 is plural, more than one. Maybe more than two)
Who is right? Who is wrong? Why is it that the Lord only allowed one witness to see one angel while another witness sees two or more?
Remember the different parts of the same Body. The foot cannot tell the hand, “No! We’re supposed to be walking! You’re supposed to walk like me! Other feet say so!”
The catholic religion will Luther’s comments to be true only if it supports its purpose. Sounds like a “line-item veto” to me.
Mark 9:38-40

Now John answered Him, saying, “Teacher, we saw someone who does not follow us casting out demons in Your name, and we forbade him because he does not follow us.”
But Jesus said, “Do not forbid him, for no one who works a miracle in My name can soon afterward speak evil of Me. For he who is not against us is on our side.

Don’t forbid those who are doing the works of Christ:

Miracles, healings, signs, wonders, and mighty acts of power, are the works of Christ. We cannot dispute this, as it is recorded biblical fact. Understanding this, we now can interpret properly, that the person of faith, doing the same works He does, will be used as instruments, the literal “Body of Christ” to perform miracles, healings, signs, wonders, and acts of power. In fact, Jesus tells us in Mark 16:17-18 (KJV): “And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.”

“But where the foot goes, doesn’t the whole body go, too?”, you may ask. Not necessarily. Though I will not cut off my foot if it’s still good, my shoulder cannot go into my shoe. Nor can my hand go into my shoe as the foot does. A shoe is designed only for the foot just like a glove is designed only for the hand.

 

[kujo313]

St.Eric:

How many translations has the WRITTEN word been through until it arrived in the version you are reading from?
I don’t know, I’m only 41 years old. I’m sure that there are people out there who made it their JOB to study that. So far, I don’t hear anybody yelling from the rooftops “THIS translation is closest!”
(BTW, I have many different translations of the Bible in my home. I don’t look at just one.)

Do you believe the Holy Spirit guided those people who translated the bible from the original language?
Only to those who prayed to God for guidance in the Name of Jesus.

How can you be certain that the WRITTEN version of the bible you are reading is TRUE to the ORIGINAL text in which it was WRITTEN?
Well, if they went according to the traditions of Jewish scribes, they would erase a word error. But if they erred on the Name of God, then they would destroy the whole thing and start over. I have a Catholic version of the Bible and John 3:16 is the same.

Think about it. And I encourage your response here on the open forum.

ps. I bet this post will not be awnsered. Either by Kujo or anyone else with his view.

What did you bet?

 

[onesimplemind]

kujo313:

Why is it that Matthew records seeing only one angel while John records two? (Matthew 28: 1-8; John 20: 11-13. Luke 24:23 is plural, more than one. Maybe more than two)
Who is right? Who is wrong? Why is it that the Lord only allowed one witness to see one angel while another witness sees two or more?
Remember the different parts of the same Body. The foot cannot tell the hand, “No! We’re supposed to be walking! You’re supposed to walk like me! Other feet say so!”
The catholic religion will Luther’s comments to be true only if it supports its purpose. Sounds like a “line-item veto” to me.
Mark 9:38-40

Now John answered Him, saying, “Teacher, we saw someone who does not follow us casting out demons in Your name, and we forbade him because he does not follow us.”
But Jesus said, “Do not forbid him, for no one who works a miracle in My name can soon afterward speak evil of Me. For he who is not against us is on our side.

Don’t forbid those who are doing the works of Christ:

Miracles, healings, signs, wonders, and mighty acts of power, are the works of Christ. We cannot dispute this, as it is recorded biblical fact. Understanding this, we now can interpret properly, that the person of faith, doing the same works He does, will be used as instruments, the literal “Body of Christ” to perform miracles, healings, signs, wonders, and acts of power. In fact, Jesus tells us in Mark 16:17-18 (KJV): “And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.”

“But where the foot goes, doesn’t the whole body go, too?”, you may ask. Not necessarily. Though I will not cut off my foot if it’s still good, my shoulder cannot go into my shoe. Nor can my hand go into my shoe as the foot does. A shoe is designed only for the foot just like a glove is designed only for the hand.

To answer your first issue, is it important how many angels John or Luke saw? I know you don’t think that the Bible is contradicting itself and I know you can make a logical judgement (line of sight for example) why one guy saw one and another saw two.

Scripture was talking about the Church having different parts and ONE body. There is no cloning going on.

Now you are the body of Christ, and members individually. And God has appointed these in the church: first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, varieties of tongues. Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Are all workers of miracles? Do all have gifts of healings? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret? 1 corinthians 12:27-30

(On a side note, the fact there is administrations says that the Church is a singular organization but thats another debate.)

On your next issue, I didn’t know Luther or his “followers” have done miracles but lets say that they have…

Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’ Matthew 7:22-23

…there are some conditions in that miracle argument.

We can throw Scripture around all we want to support our own views. But the true Christian understanding of Faith isn’t relative, either I know it, you know it, your church knows it, The Catholic Church knows it, some Evangelical church knows it, someone has to know it or Jesus is a liar.

Which brings me to my previous post…

…I would like to know how you have the most correct interpretation of the Bible, and if you or your church has the most correct understanding of Christian faith, and I would like examples of people from the death of the last Apostle to 1500 a.d. who have had an interpretation of the Scripture and an understanding of Christian faith that is closely in common with yours(or your church’s).

 

[kujo313]

Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’ Matthew 7:22-23

…there are some conditions in that miracle argument.

…I would like to know how you have the most correct interpretation of the Bible, and if you or your church has the most correct understanding of Christian faith, and I would like examples of people from the death of the last Apostle to 1500 a.d. who have had an interpretation of the Scripture and an understanding of Christian faith that is closely in common with yours(or your church’s).

First of all, I don’t believe that the catholic religion is THE choice of Jesus. Although you will throw in some sayings of some saint or pope from other centuries along with a mixed bag of Bible Scriptures.
ANY religion can do that.
1 Cor 1:12-13

Now I say this, that each of you says, “I am of Paul,” or “I am of Apollos,” or “I am of Cephas,” or “I am of Christ.” Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?

The catholic religion says that the Church is built on Peter, the first “pope”. Yet, more than once, Jesus is said to be the Cornerstone. The Church is to be built on Jesus, not on a pope. Even if Jesus handed over the keys, it’s still to be built on Jesus.
If you lent somebody your car and handed them the keys, does it make it THEIR car or is it still yours?
Jesus is the owner. He defeated death, Hell and the grave. The Gospel is all about Him.
Peter was not crucified for me. Nobody else was but Jesus. Sure, Peter was killed for being a follower of Christ. But he didn’t lay down his life for anybody but Christ.

I’m not saying that the Bible I carry (KJV, NKJV as well as others) IS the closest, nor am I saying that the church, or temple, I go to is closer than yours.
I am saying that you cannot say that yours is better than anybody.

Luke 9:49-50

49 Now John answered and said, “Master, we saw someone casting out demons in Your name, and we forbade him because he does not follow with us.”
50 But Jesus said to him, “Do not forbid him, for he who is not against us is on our side.”

I don’t follow you. Do not stop me because I don’t do things the way you do and the way you think is right.

 

[Giver]

kujo313:

Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’ Matthew 7:22-23

…there are some conditions in that miracle argument.

…I would like to know how you have the most correct interpretation of the Bible, and if you or your church has the most correct understanding of Christian faith, and I would like examples of people from the death of the last Apostle to 1500 a.d. who have had an interpretation of the Scripture and an understanding of Christian faith that is closely in common with yours(or your church’s).

First of all, I don’t believe that the catholic religion is THE choice of Jesus. Although you will throw in some sayings of some saint or pope from other centuries along with a mixed bag of Bible Scriptures.
ANY religion can do that.
1 Cor 1:12-13

Now I say this, that each of you says, “I am of Paul,” or “I am of Apollos,” or “I am of Cephas,” or “I am of Christ.” Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?

The catholic religion says that the Church is built on Peter, the first “pope”. Yet, more than once, Jesus is said to be the Cornerstone. The Church is to be built on Jesus, not on a pope. Even if Jesus handed over the keys, it’s still to be built on Jesus.
If you lent somebody your car and handed them the keys, does it make it THEIR car or is it still yours?
Jesus is the owner. He defeated death, Hell and the grave. The Gospel is all about Him.
Peter was not crucified for me. Nobody else was but Jesus. Sure, Peter was killed for being a follower of Christ. But he didn’t lay down his life for anybody but Christ.

I’m not saying that the Bible I carry (KJV, NKJV as well as others) IS the closest, nor am I saying that the church, or temple, I go to is closer than yours.
I am saying that you cannot say that yours is better than anybody.

Luke 9:49-50

49 Now John answered and said, “Master, we saw someone casting out demons in Your name, and we forbade him because he does not follow with us.”
50 But Jesus said to him, “Do not forbid him, for he who is not against us is on our side.”

I don’t follow you. Do not stop me because I don’t do things the way you do and the way you think is right.

You articulated my feelings very well, thank you. We all need to get our eyes on Jesus and follow him.

(Hebrews 8:10-12) “No, this is the covenant I will make with the House of Israel when those days arrive-it is the Lord who speaks. I will put my laws into their minds and write them on their hearts. Then I will be their God and they shall be my people. There will be no further need for neighbour to try to teach neighbour, or brother to say to brother, ’Learn to know the Lord’. No, they will all know me, the least no less than the greatest, since I will forgive their iniquities and never call their sins to mind.”

(John 14:26) “but the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you everything and remind you of all I have said to you.”
Giver

(1 Corinthians 2:10-16) “These are the very things that God has revealed to us through the Spirit, for the Spirit reaches the depts. Of everything, even the depths of God. After all, the depths of a man can only be known by his own spirit, not by any other man, and in the same way the depths of God can only be known by the Spirit of God. Now instead of the spirit of the world, we have received the Spirit that comes from God, to teach us to understand the gifts that he has given us. Therefore we teach, not in the way in which philosophy is taught, but in the way that the Spirit teaches us: we teach spiritual things spiritually. A spiritual man, on the other hand, is able to judge the value of everything and his own value in not to be judged by other men. As scripture says;’ Who can know the mind of the Lord, so who can teach him?’ But we are those who have the mind of Christ.”

 

[kujo313]

Giver:

First of all, I don’t believe that the catholic religion is THE choice of Jesus. Although you will throw in some sayings of some saint or pope from other centuries along with a mixed bag of Bible Scriptures.
ANY religion can do that.
1 Cor 1:12-13

Now I say this, that each of you says, “I am of Paul,” or “I am of Apollos,” or “I am of Cephas,” or “I am of Christ.” Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?

The catholic religion says that the Church is built on Peter, the first “pope”. Yet, more than once, Jesus is said to be the Cornerstone. The Church is to be built on Jesus, not on a pope. Even if Jesus handed over the keys, it’s still to be built on Jesus.
If you lent somebody your car and handed them the keys, does it make it THEIR car or is it still yours?
Jesus is the owner. He defeated death, Hell and the grave. The Gospel is all about Him.
Peter was not crucified for me. Nobody else was but Jesus. Sure, Peter was killed for being a follower of Christ. But he didn’t lay down his life for anybody but Christ.

I’m not saying that the Bible I carry (KJV, NKJV as well as others) IS the closest, nor am I saying that the church, or temple, I go to is closer than yours.
I am saying that you cannot say that yours is better than anybody.

Luke 9:49-50

49 Now John answered and said, “Master, we saw someone casting out demons in Your name, and we forbade him because he does not follow with us.”
50 But Jesus said to him, “Do not forbid him, for he who is not against us is on our side.”

I don’t follow you. Do not stop me because I don’t do things the way you do and the way you think is right.

You articulated my feelings very well, thank you. We all need to get our eyes on Jesus and follow him.

(Hebrews 8:10-12) “No, this is the covenant I will make with the House of Israel when those days arrive-it is the Lord who speaks. I will put my laws into their minds and write them on their hearts. Then I will be their God and they shall be my people. There will be no further need for neighbour to try to teach neighbour, or brother to say to brother, ’Learn to know the Lord’. No, they will all know me, the least no less than the greatest, since I will forgive their iniquities and never call their sins to mind.”

(John 14:26) “but the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you everything and remind you of all I have said to you.”
Giver

(1 Corinthians 2:10-16) “These are the very things that God has revealed to us through the Spirit, for the Spirit reaches the depts. Of everything, even the depths of God. After all, the depths of a man can only be known by his own spirit, not by any other man, and in the same way the depths of God can only be known by the Spirit of God. Now instead of the spirit of the world, we have received the Spirit that comes from God, to teach us to understand the gifts that he has given us. Therefore we teach, not in the way in which philosophy is taught, but in the way that the Spirit teaches us: we teach spiritual things spiritually. A spiritual man, on the other hand, is able to judge the value of everything and his own value in not to be judged by other men. As scripture says;’ Who can know the mind of the Lord, so who can teach him?’ But we are those who have the mind of Christ.”

I usually delete stuff in order to make room in my inbox, but I think I’ll keep this one for a while.

Resurrection Day is coming. The “World” is going to be thinking about bunnies, eggs and gifts. All believers in Christ Jesus need to preach the Gospel and show them the Truth of this special day.

 

[montanaman]

Reminder: Yes, we know Jesus is the cornerstone, which makes it all the more significant that he renamed Simon “Rock.” Elsewhere, Paul says the Church is built on the apostles, so this “me and Jesus alone” nonsense isn’t Biblical. But then, you probably already knew that…

 

[MrS]

Giver:

First of all, I don’t believe that the catholic religion is THE choice of Jesus. Although you will throw in some sayings of some saint or pope from other centuries along with a mixed bag of Bible Scriptures.
ANY religion can do that.
1 Cor 1:12-13

Q#1 Which religion is THE choice of Jesus?

Q#2 When did He inform us of this?

Q#3 Which religion actually claims to have been founded by Jesus Himself (more than just claiming to follow His teachings)?

ANY religion can do that??? Not hardly. No other religion can do that (with a straight face)

 

[Angainor]

onesimplemind:

The problem isn’t the Bible, at least the 73 book Bible, the problem is …

Your interpretation of Scripture is not a reliable testament of truth. Agree or disagree?

I agree, wholeheartedly!

I do not claim to possess authority. I would not accept the papacy if it were offered.

onesimplemind:

The Bible doesn’t actually tell you anything. The Bible is a book and this is how books work. YOU must read the Bible, process that information in your brain, and come up with a conclusion/ interpretation. Now lets see if your brain is right and something I shouldn’t show contempt.

I don’t have to take your word for anything. I get to test all things (1 Thessalonians 5:21 along with common sense). Since you are almost 2000 years removed from date of the writing of the first book in the New Testement, I get to test YOUR interpretation along with everyone else who believes in SS.

:clapping: :dancing: Awsome! I wouldn’t have it any other way. Test, test, away! That is all I ask.

 

[montanaman]

Angainor:

I agree, wholeheartedly!

I do not claim to possess authority. I would not accept the papacy if it were offered.:clapping: :dancing: Awsome! I wouldn’t have it any other way. Test, test, away! That is all I ask.

And, you know, quit reading sola scriptura into the Bible. That’d be a good start. As far as I can tell, Protestants “testing” anything with the bible is a myth. They gladly believe things in it that aren’t there, or reject other things…

 

[Angainor]

onesimplemind:

Let’s take your analogy somewhere more interesting…

I wonder if Jesus said “The Kingdom of Heaven is like the future representative republic called the USA.”?

I wonder if in Heaven you get to vote for a new king? I wonder if the Democrats in Heaven are worried about the culture of corruption by the Republicans in Heaven? Does Jesus have to worry about campaign finance reform?

I wonder which is closer to the system of government in Heaven, the Catholic Church or the good ol’ USA?

It is [post=1384478]not my analogy[/post]!
Our Father, who art in heaven… thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven…
There is no “government” in the kingdom of heaven. God’s will is done and that is that.

 

[Angainor]

montanaman:

And, you know, quit reading sola scriptura into the Bible. That’d be a good start. As far as I can tell, Protestants “testing” anything with the bible is a myth. They gladly believe things in it that aren’t there, or reject other things…

As far as tests go, I have to say that is a pretty weak effort. That isn’t so much of a test as a blanket assertion.

I [post=1385980]don’t read Sola Scriptura[/post] into the Bible.

 

[montanaman]

Angainor:

As far as tests go, I have to say that is a pretty weak effort. That isn’t so much of a test as a blanket assertion.

I [post=1385980]don’t read Sola Scriptura[/post] into the Bible.

Well, that’s good to hear. Now maybe you’ll be more open to Christ’s Church.