Sola Scriptura--now I get

[MrS]

Just imagine for a moment…

we all wake up tomorrow morning, and every single bible in the world has disappeared… gone forever… not sola, but solong scripture.

The only Christian Faith on earth would once again be Catholic and all others would then have no basis for their beliefs (unless they started a tradition based on their elders teachings) and would thus be out of existence.

The Catholic Church however would again be in the same position it was for hundreds of years following the death and resurrection… sharing the true good news by word of mouth, by Tradition, and by and thru the authority of Jesus Christ.

We may decide to write these things down (with the guarantee that the Holy Spirit would guide these events.)… and things would be fine until the second coming of Luther.

 

[Eden]

Giver:

Thirty years ago he told me a time was coming soon where man would suffer more than he ever has. I was to give a word, and leave. Out of that word a community would grow. He wanted a place of safety for his people. No he never has given me any explanation or understanding of that word. I was give a vision of a Community, but when, where or how many I have no idea.

This is the way many cults like the Branch Davidians have begun. Are you saying you have been chosen as a prophet?

 

[kujo313]

AquinasXVI:

CATHOLICS NEVER WORSHIPPED MARY. BUT WE LOVE HER MUCH AS WE CAN…for she is the one that Christ chose out of all of humanity to be His mother. If she was good enough (Hail Full of Grace, The Lord is with you-St. Gabriel) for Jesus to call 'Mama" then she’s good enough for me to call her “Mama.”

No offense but your knowledge of Catholicism is so twisted. You probably think we’re all made of brick that do not have feelings, cognitive thought or a soul. That we’re robots that have been brainwashed by the Magisterium.

Whoever taught you these things about got it all wrong and passed it onto you.

For your own integrity, take the earlier suggestion and READ UP on history and the development of doctrine. PRAY that God grant you illumination for many of what you think is simply not true.

For the most part, everyone has been charitable to the erroneous accusations that you’ve leveled against us. But I ask you to go ahead and accuse us all day of what we truly believe as opposed to what you think we believe.

in XT.

You REALLY need to get with other people from your religion. How can you ignore them? Statues, paintings, scapulars and rosaries. They run to see Mary in the grilled cheese sandwich, holding a painting. Asking for Mary to save them from hellfire.

The Old Testament is a model for how we’re supposed to be after the Messiah has come:
The Lamb was sacrificed for our sins. A Lamb “without spot or wrinkle.” The “first born” Lamb.
The Old Testament does NOT tell us to concentrat on the lamb, or Lamb’s, mother. Nowhere does it say to pay special attention to the lambs mother. (Baaa!)

Sure, YOU may be a “Christ-only” Catholic, but there are millions of “Maryologists” out there that the catholic religion claims as its own.

I’ve read the history. Some people in history was thinking too much and too hard. They analyzed it too closely and for too long.

 

[montanaman]

kujo313:

You REALLY need to get with other people from your religion. How can you ignore them? Statues, paintings, scapulars and rosaries. They run to see Mary in the grilled cheese sandwich, holding a painting. Asking for Mary to save them from hellfire.

The Old Testament is a model for how we’re supposed to be after the Messiah has come:
The Lamb was sacrificed for our sins. A Lamb “without spot or wrinkle.” The “first born” Lamb.
The Old Testament does NOT tell us to concentrat on the lamb, or Lamb’s, mother. Nowhere does it say to pay special attention to the lambs mother. (Baaa!)

Sure, YOU may be a “Christ-only” Catholic, but there are millions of “Maryologists” out there that the catholic religion claims as its own.

I’ve read the history. Some people in history was thinking too much and too hard. They analyzed it too closely and for too long.

No matter how many places or times we say it, it never sinks in. We’ve explained to so-called “Bible Christians” our relationship to Mary thousands of times, we’ve flatly rejected “Mariolatry” everywhere it comes up, and we’re repelled by the idea of attributing divinity to Mary. Yet it keeps coming up. Why? Bigotry, plain and simple. Anti-Catholics have this sick need to lie about us, to believe any little falsehood. For what? To stroke that ever-present sense of self-righteousness, I guess.

Tell you what, kujo–we’ll stop “worshipping” Mary right after you stop worshipping the Bible.

 

[jim1130]

kujo313:

You REALLY need to get with other people from your religion. How can you ignore them? Statues, paintings, scapulars and rosaries. They run to see Mary in the grilled cheese sandwich, holding a painting. Asking for Mary to save them from hellfire.

The Old Testament is a model for how we’re supposed to be after the Messiah has come:
The Lamb was sacrificed for our sins. A Lamb “without spot or wrinkle.” The “first born” Lamb.
The Old Testament does NOT tell us to concentrat on the lamb, or Lamb’s, mother. Nowhere does it say to pay special attention to the lambs mother. (Baaa!)

Sure, YOU may be a “Christ-only” Catholic, but there are millions of “Maryologists” out there that the catholic religion claims as its own.

I’ve read the history. Some people in history was thinking too much and too hard. They analyzed it too closely and for too long.

Peace.

Please. We do NOT worship Mary. We HONOR Mary because of her role in our salvation. And we HONOR her as Christ honored her.

Do I pray the Rosary? Yes I do.

Do I ask Mary to pray for me (and many others)? Yes I do.

Do I get on my knees and give praise, glory, and worship to Mary and Mary alone? No I do not.

Have you ever been to Mass? If so, please explain where in the Mass do we usurp the glory and praise due to God alone and shift praise and glory to Mary?

Peace.

 

[kujo313]

montanaman:

No matter how many places or times we say it, it never sinks in. We’ve explained to so-called “Bible Christians” our relationship to Mary thousands of times, we’ve flatly rejected “Mariolatry” everywhere it comes up, and we’re repelled by the idea of attributing divinity to Mary. Yet it keeps coming up. Why? Bigotry, plain and simple. Anti-Catholics have this sick need to lie about us, to believe any little falsehood. For what? To stroke that ever-present sense of self-righteousness, I guess.

Tell you what, kujo–we’ll stop “worshipping” Mary right after you stop worshipping the Bible.

I don’t worship the Bible. Go ahead, come to my house and burn them all. I can’t take them with me when I die.

Psalm 119:11
“Your word I have hidden in my heart,
That I might not sin against You.”

 

[Mickey]

**Sacred Tradition is the very Church; without the Sacred Tradition the Church does not exist. Those who deny the Sacred Tradition deny the Church and the preaching of the Apostles. **
**Before the writing of the Holy Scriptures, that is, of the sacred texts of the Gospels, the Acts and the Epistles of the Apostles, and before they were spread to the churches of the world, the Church was based on Sacred Tradition…The holy texts are in relation to Sacred Tradition what the part is to the whole. The Church Fathers regard Sacred Tradition as the safe guide in the interpretation of Holy Scripture and absolutely necessary for understanding the truths contained in the Holy Scripture. The Church received many traditions from the Apostles… The constitution of the church services, especially of the Divine Liturgy, the holy Mysteria themselves and the manner of performing them, certain prayers and other institutions of the Church go back to the Sacred Tradition of the Apostles. In their conferences, the Holy Synods draw not only from Holy Scriptures, but also from Sacred Tradition as from a pure fount. Thus, the Seventh Ecumenical Synod says in the 8th Decree: "If one violates any part of the Church Tradition, either written or unwritten, let him be anathema. **
St. Nectarios of Aegina

 

[montanaman]

kujo313:

I don’t worship the Bible. Go ahead, come to my house and burn them all. I can’t take them with me when I die.

Psalm 119:11
“Your word I have hidden in my heart,
That I might not sin against You.”

So now you know how baseless accusations feel. Now, multiply “You worship the Bible” by 10,000 times from well-meaning but ignorant people, and you get an idea why Catholics have an “edge” when it comes to Protestants.

 

[montanaman]

montanaman:

So now you know how baseless accusations feel. Now, multiply “You worship the Bible” by 10,000 times from well-meaning but ignorant people, and you get an idea why Catholics have an “edge” when it comes to Protestants.

Actually, that doesn’t begin to give you an idea. Imagine that somebody tells you “I don’t care what you say–you REALLY SECRETLY worship the Bible in your hearts. I’ve seen Protestants on their knees, Bible in hand. That means you worship it. And the way you keep yakking on and on about it, well, that’s just more proof.”

“But no,” you say, “We hold the Word of God dear to our hearts, that’s all. Without Christ, it would just be a bunch of meaningless stories.”

“It doesn’t matter,” says your critic, “I’ve heard from a friend of a friend that you put the Bible in a place of honor in your home. Therefore you put it above Christ.”

And so on…

Now, multiply THAT conversation by 10,000 times and you begin to get an idea of why we’d just as soon call you a heretic and dishonest and a liar as a Christian. When you explain the same thing to someone two, three, four dozen times, and they come back repeating the same things–unsubstantiated beyond their subjective impressions, that is–you have to force yourself to believe that Christ is working in their lives in any way.

 

[kujo313]

montanaman:

So now you know how baseless accusations feel. Now, multiply “You worship the Bible” by 10,000 times from well-meaning but ignorant people, and you get an idea why Catholics have an “edge” when it comes to Protestants.

“Edge” or “paths”?

Jesus says He’s the Way. Mary says to wear a scapular when you die and you escape hellfire. etc, etc, etc.

There are well-meaning but ignorant people in the catholic religion, too.

 

[montanaman]

“Edge” or “paths”?

Jesus says He’s the Way. Mary says to wear a scapular when you die and you escape hellfire. etc, etc, etc.

There are well-meaning but ignorant people in the catholic religion, too.

$100 bucks says you couldn’t articulate what’s involved with the scapular without googling it.

 

[kujo313]

$100 bucks says you couldn’t articulate what’s involved with the scapular without googling it.

It’s a simple game of “Mary says this” and “Mary says that”.

Mary says “I” and “my”.

Take that $100 you want to bet and buy some food for the hungry.

Besides, gambling is a sin and I don’t do it.

 

[MrS]

kujo313:

You REALLY need to get with other people from your religion. How can you ignore them? Statues, paintings, scapulars and rosaries. They run to see Mary in the grilled cheese sandwich, holding a painting. Asking for Mary to save them from hellfire.

The Old Testament is a model for how we’re supposed to be after the Messiah has come:
The Lamb was sacrificed for our sins. A Lamb “without spot or wrinkle.” The “first born” Lamb.
The Old Testament does NOT tell us to concentrat on the lamb, or Lamb’s, mother. Nowhere does it say to pay special attention to the lambs mother. (Baaa!)

Sure, YOU may be a “Christ-only” Catholic, but there are millions of “Maryologists” out there that the catholic religion claims as its own.

I’ve read the history. Some people in history was thinking too much and too hard. They analyzed it too closely and for too long.

Catholics… alert… we need to follow Kujo… please remove the following from your bible, and place with the Apocrypha on the shelf of man-determined non-essentials

1. verse: ALL gernerations shall call Mary Blessed… (once removed, we can safely say that no one in scripture ever attained this level.
2. verse: Hail, full of grace… perfect past participle in greek showing she was in and shall remain the greatest of God’s creatures, full of grace
3. fourth commandment… Jesus was the perfect Jew, and He kept the commandments… honoring Him mother (last time we checked, it is still Mary). I want to be like Him. I will honor her too. If she was good enough for the Son ofGod, she is good enough for me!

 

[montanaman]

kujo313:

It’s a simple game of “Mary says this” and “Mary says that”.

Mary says “I” and “my”.

Take that $100 you want to bet and buy some food for the hungry.

Besides, gambling is a sin and I don’t do it.

That’s what I thought.

For the record, wearing a scapular in no way bypasses salvation through Christ. That’s a lie you’ve chosen to buy.

 

[MrS]

kujo313:

It’s a simple game of “Mary says this” and “Mary says that”.

Mary says “I” and “my”.

Take that $100 you want to bet and buy some food for the hungry.

Besides, gambling is a sin and I don’t do it.

so don’t gamble with your salvation

 

[montanaman]

MrS:

Catholics… alert… we need to follow Kujo… please remove the following from your bible, and place with the Apocrypha on the shelf of man-determined non-essentials

1. verse: ALL gernerations shall call Mary Blessed… (once removed, we can safely say that no one in scripture ever attained this level.
2. verse: Hail, full of grace… perfect past participle in greek showing she was in and shall remain the greatest of God’s creatures, full of grace
3. fourth commandment… Jesus was the perfect Jew, and He kept the commandments… honoring Him mother (last time we checked, it is still Mary). I want to be like Him. I will honor her too. If she was good enough for the Son ofGod, she is good enough for me!

Good point. I’ll call my local Lutheran superstore and see if I can get one of those handy Bible snippers. They cut so cleanly it’s as though the books were never there!

 

[Philthy]

kujo313:

You opened it, too. Name something in the Bible that ain’t clear.

No, you have opened it up and hopefully you will see how tenous your position is. In all honesty, I could pick any single topic of theology and find sola scriptura adherents who disagree on it. Think Im wrong? Why don’t YOU just name one issue which is held by all sola scriptura Christians(except sola scriptura, of course). You are going to list things that are so clear in the Bible that no adherents of sola scriptura could disagree on, right? Good luck! Failure to do so is a direct refutation of your claim UNLESS you can provide a reason why your interpretation is to be taken as THE interpretation: ie, you are infallible.

kujo313:

I’m not saying that I’m right. I’m not saying that I’m better than anybody. But what is so hard about it?

Nothing is hard about making a claim which you admit you dont know the truth or value of. Thats the whole point - your opinion, like mine - is worthless.

kujo313:

Romans 3:23
“For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.”
We all have sin in our hearts. We all were born with sin.

Already you are in over your head. The claim is that all HAVE SINNED. That means all have ACTED in a sinful way. It says nothing about “sin nature” or original sin. It is already unclear: does this statement include all of humanity including infants and the unborn? If you cant humbly recognize such a simple error, how can ever humbly accept rebuke?
Do you think Im being unreasonable? Do you think all Christians agree with your interp? Try again - some believe in original sin that condemns even infants to hell while some don’t. It aint so clear…

kujo313:

Romans 6:23a “…The wages of sin is death…”

This is clear enough - though some might argue over the death being purely physical vs spiritual.

kujo313:

Romans 6:23b “…But the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.” Salvation is a free gift from God to you! We can’t earn this gift, but we must reach out and receive it.

It was not free, it is unmerited, and it was extraordinarily costly.

kujo313:

Romans 10:9,10
"…If you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Jesus from the dead, you shall be saved;
Romans 10:13
“Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved!”

I would say that this is a little confusing - can I ignore the first passage an simply opt for the second? Whoever calls on the name of he Lord will be saved? Does that include all Jews and Muslims? How is that not directly contradictory to Jesus’ own words,“Not everyone who calls me Lord will enter the Kingdom of Heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father”? Matt 27:21 And furthermore, if I do call on the Lord and am “saved” and then I proceed to turn my back on that calling and return -until death- into a disbelieving sinner, am I still saved and going to heaven? It aint so clear from the various protestant positions on this…

kujo313:

Revelation 3:20a
“Behold I stand at the door and knock, if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him…”

Believe in Him. Ask Him to come in to your heart by faith, and ask Him to reveal Himself to you. Open the bible to the gospel of John and read what God says about Jesus, about you, and about being born again. (See John 3)

This is very nice, but the verse simply says Jesus will knock and we are to open. You seem to be saying that we are to ask Jesus to knock - but that isnt what the verse says.
In addition, you were unwise to reference John 3 into the context of a “the bible is clear” debate as John 3:5 is one of the most hotly debated verses in Scripture. Even Nicodemus was “unclear” on what Jesus was saying straight to his face.

con’d

 

[Philthy]

kujo313:

ALL … in Christ are priests (1 Peter 2:4-9),

Agreed - All members of a royal priesthood,

kujo313:

they ALL have direct access to God (Romans 5:1-2).

Agreed - whatever “direct access” means.

kujo313:

Jesus made the final sacrifice for sin on the cross almost two thousand years ago.

Hmmmmm - sort of. I am confused because Romans 12-1 tells me," i urge you, therefore, my beloved brothers, to OFFER YOUR BODY AS A LIVING SACRIFICE holy and pleasing to God…" and he goes on to tell us that this is our spiritual act of worship.
Listen again to Paul: "in MY flesh I am filling up what is LACKING IN THE AFFLICTIONS OF CHRIST … Interesting - even a little confusing, isn’t it, that somehow our bodies can be united to the one, completed sacrifice in Christ which occured 2000 years ago. Aint so clear again - for your theology anyhow.

kujo313:

A constant priestly sacrifice of the Eucharist is absolutely unnecessary and unscriptural (Hebrews 10:11-18).

I thought you said we were all priests; and we know that Paul tells us to offer our bodies as a living sacrifice; and Christ said “This is my body - do this” and the apostles devoted themselves daily to…“the breaking of the bread”. How does that not amount to a constant priestly sacrifice of the Eucharist? Im confused - all from (your interpretation of) Scripture.

kujo313:

That is grossly idolitry. Definately not what was taught by Jesus or His disciples. This devotion to Mary started over 1200 years after Jesus.

1200 years after Christ? Hmmmm - you seem a little weak on the facts - do the work before you start speaking. In addition, I don’t have all the teachings of the Apostles written down - do you?

kujo313:

Don’t tell me that Catholics don’t worship Mary. Popes did (Pope John XXII, Pope Pius Xl, and Pope Benedict XV)

Dulia, Latria, Hyperlatria - look it up so that recognition by unbelievers of your ignorance on these topics does not detract from the good you have to offer on some of the Gospel message.

 

[kujo313]

MrS:

Catholics… alert… we need to follow Kujo… please remove the following from your bible, and place with the Apocrypha on the shelf of man-determined non-essentials

1. verse: ALL gernerations shall call Mary Blessed… (once removed, we can safely say that no one in scripture ever attained this level.
2. verse: Hail, full of grace… perfect past participle in greek showing she was in and shall remain the greatest of God’s creatures, full of grace
3. fourth commandment… Jesus was the perfect Jew, and He kept the commandments… honoring Him mother (last time we checked, it is still Mary). I want to be like Him. I will honor her too. If she was good enough for the Son ofGod, she is good enough for me!

NO! Even if I was a living saint in your religion, I would never want followers or admirers. Follow Christ, admire Christ.
“Blessed” is the same used in the sermon on the mount. (kinda makes you feel cheap, doesn’t it?)
“God’s greatest”? Jesus didn’t show it. The apostles didn’t show it.
I give Mary credit for being unmarried AND pregnant: Took alot of guts; for saying “yes” to the Lord: “Rather,” (instead of thinking about the woman who gave birth to Jesus), “blessed are those who hear the word of God and obey it.”
That deserves a whole new paragraph. Jesus, remember Him? Jesus said instead of focusing on the woman who bore Him and who fed Him: Mary, right? We’re talking about the SAME Mary? You’d better look into it. INSTEAD OF that, “Blessed are those who hear the word of God and obey it.”
Good example to follow. Jesus did, the apostles did.

Do what Jesus did: pick up your cross and deny yourself.

See? No rocket science.

 

[montanaman]

I guess since there’s only a finite amount of love and admiration in the universe, you’d better quit loving your parents or family and focus it all on Jesus.