A
Angainor
Guest
Thank you, I see I really, really used the wrong word. My apologies.
- Status
J
JSmitty2005
Guest
“For the time will come when people will not tolerate sound doctrine but, following their own desires and insatiable curiosity, will accumulate teachers and will stop listening to the truth and will be diverted to myths.” 2 Tim. 4:3-4
“There were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will introduce destructive heresies and even deny the Master who ransomed them, bringing swift destruction on themselves.” 2 Pet. 2:1
“In them (Paul’s epistles) there are some things hard to understand that the ignorant and unstable distort to their own destruction, just as they do the other scriptures. Therefore, beloved, since you are forewarned, be on your guard not to be led into the error of the unprincipled and to fall from your own stability.” 2 Pet. 3:16-17
“I urge you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree in what you say, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and in the same purpose.” 1 Cor. 1:10
“First of all you must understand this, that no prophecy of scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation, because no prophecy ever came by the impulse of man, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.”
2 Pet. 1:20-21
Acts 8:27-40, the eunuch was trying to read Isaiah when Philip asked him, “Do you understand what you are reading?” But he said, “Why, how can I, unless someone shows me?” Since Philip had been filled by the Holy Spirit in Acts 2:4, he was able to explain the truth of Isaiah to the eunuch.
“So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter.”
2 Thess. 2:15
“He who is not with me is against me, and he who does not gather with me scatters.”
Matthew 12:30, Luke 11:23
“You shall not do as we are now doing; here, everyone does what seems right to himself…”
Deuteronomy 12:8, Judges 17:6, Judges 21:25
“And knowing their thoughts Jesus said to them, ‘Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation, and every city or house divided against itself will not stand. And if Satan casts out Satan, he is divided against himself; how then shall his kingdom stand?’”
Matthew 12:25-26
Isn’t this exactly what is happening to non-Catholic ecclesial communities? They are imploding due to these never ending splits. The splinters are getting smaller and smaller, and eventually if this keeps up, each member theoretically will be his own pope.
“Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which you have learned: and avoid them. For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.”
Romans 16:17-18
“Obey your superiors and be subject to them, for they keep watch as having to render an account of your souls; so that they may do this with joy, and not with grief, for that would not be expedient for you.”
Hebrews 13:17
“I know that after my departure savage wolves will come among you, and they will not spare the flock. And from your own group, men will come forward perverting the truth to draw the disciples away after them.” Acts 20:29-30
J
JSmitty2005
Guest
Why is it not authoritative? The biblical Church was. In any case, it surely wasn’t be democratic! Look at the Book of Acts, the Church there was pretty authoritative and if I’m not mistaken, Peter seemed to take it upon himself to be in charge.
Christ told us that He would send the Holy Spirit to lead His Church into ALL truth, not a collection of “truths” but Truth in it’s entirety since He is Truth Itself.
Of course the understanding of individual Christians can be incorrect. That’s how heresies arise.
You see, whether you like it or not and whether you’ll admit it or not, you accept extra-biblical authorities as being divinely inspired.
#1 - As a Christian, you must believe in the two natures of Christ (human and divine). There are those that call themselves Christian that deny one or the other of these natures and yet they use the same Bible that you have to justify their beliefs! If you want to be consistent and personal interpretation is the way to go, then you cannot say that your interpretation is any more correct than theirs or ours and you should accept and tolerate the fact that Arians or Catholics have their own interpretation. BUT, you don’t. AND you shouldn’t…because you know innately that there is such a thing as absolute truth. Be it moral or doctrinal, relativism just doesn’t work and everyone knows that deep down. So, the question is: Where is that Truth? In the Catholic Church or elsewhere?
#2 - As a Christian, you must also believe that the nature of God is a Trinity. This is also not explicit in the Bible and is denied by many that use the Bible as their authority. As a good Lutheran, I know that you believe in the Trinity, but where did you get this belief? Who came up with such an idea? Who gave anyone the authority to come up with such an idea?
#3 - Finally, since you’re an adherent of sola scriptura (a “tradition of men that nullifies the Word of God” invented by Martin Luther in the 16th century), you need to know infallibly which books are infallible. How do you know?
One final question…Jesus did not give us the Bible, but He did leave us with 12 men to lead His teaching Church, so HOW CAN YOU ACCEPT SOMETHING AS YOUR FINAL AND ONLY AUTHORITY THAT WAS NOT GIVEN TO US BY JESUS?
By putting our faith in the Catholic Church, Catholics trust Christ.
By putting their faith in the Bible, Protestants trust the Catholic Church.
It’s as simple as that.
A
Angainor
Guest
JSmitty2005 said:
This is the Church in action. False teachings are whithering on the vine before our eyes. The Church will ensure that the truth lives on, have a little faith she can accomplish that much.
J
JSmitty2005
Guest
I have total faith that the Church will continue teaching the truth for all of eternity.
“To Him be glory in the Church and in Christ Jesus down through all the ages of time without end.” Ephesians 3:21
But when I refer to “the Church,” I mean the Holy Roman Catholic Church and Her alone. You mean some kind of denominational hodgepodge, do you not?
J
JSmitty2005
Guest
Angainor, I have a book that I’d like you to read. It’s called (how appropriate) By What Authority? and it’s by Mark Shea. I will be glad to mail it to you at my expense if you will actually read it, although I would like it returned when you’ve finished.
What do you say?
What do you say?
A
Angainor
Guest
I believe the twelve had special authority. Even so, I believe you are mistaken that Peter acted authoritatively.Why is it not authoritative? The biblical Church was. In any case, it surely wasn’t be democratic! Look at the Book of Acts, the Church there was pretty authoritative and if I’m not mistaken, Peter seemed to take it upon himself to be in charge.
J
JSmitty2005
Guest
I obviously disagree with you, but as I said before, who are you to say that you’re right and I’m wrong? What gives you the authority to do that?
Okay, I really do have to address this.
Peter headed the meeting which elected Matthias as replacement for Judas (Acts 1:13-26).
Peter led the apostles in preaching on Pentecost (Acts 2:14).
Peter led the meeting which decided on which terms Gentiles would be allowed into the Church (Acts 15).
Peter was the judge of Ananias and Saphira (Acts 5:1-11).
Peter performed the first miracle after Pentecost (Acts 3).
After Jesus returned to heaven, the Holy Spirit came down upon the disciples, and the need for Peter’s boldness and intensity became evident. When the Spirit descended, the disciples spoke in languages they had never heard, and yet the crowd around them understood each in his own language. The confusion mounted until Peter stood up and proclaimed the truth of God’s work. Powerfully, authoritatively, Peter declared the work of the Lord and the Church began (Acts 2). Peter led the other disciples as they healed the sick and preached the Good News of Jesus’ gift of salvation to the Jews. Repeatedly in difficult situations, Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, powerfully proclaimed the truth (Acts 3:11-26, 5:29-42, 8:9-25, 15:1-12). So great was Peter’s reputation in the young Church that people brought their sick into the streets so that “at least Peter’s shadow might fall on some of them as he passed by” (Acts 5:14-15).
It was also through Peter that the Church would eventually encompass the entire world. In Acts 10, Peter went to the roof to pray in solitude. He became hungry and fell into a trance. In a vision, he saw a sheet fold down from heaven with all kinds of animals on it, including mammals, reptiles, and birds. “And there came a voice to him, ‘Rise, Peter; kill and eat.’ But Peter said, ‘No, Lord; for I have never eaten anything that is common or unclean.’ And the voice came to him again a second time, ‘What God has cleansed, you must not call common’” (Acts 10:13-15).
God then sent an angel to Peter telling him to go with the man who came to the door. So Peter followed this man to a Gentile named Cornelius, who was a believer. Cornelius told Peter how, in a dream, an angel told him that God knew all the good Cornelius had done and how great was his faith, and God was pleased. The angel had told Cornelius to send for Peter. “So I sent to you at once, and you have been kind enough to come. Now therefore we are all here present in the sight of God, to hear all you have been commanded by the Lord” (Acts 10:33).
Peter then realized that God wanted the Church to include all people: God created all people, Jesus died for all people. When the Jews later criticized him for his association with a Gentile, Peter stood up and told the crowd of his vision and what it meant. The crowd listened, and, “When they heard this, they were silenced. And they glorified God, saying, ‘Then to the Gentiles also God has granted repentance unto life’” (Acts 11:18).
There is ample evidence in the New Testament that Peter was first in authority among the apostles. Whenever they were named, Peter headed the list (Matt. 10:1-4, Mark 3:16-19, Luke 6:14-16, Acts 1:13); sometimes the apostles were referred to as “Peter and those who were with him” (Luke 9:32). Peter was the one who generally spoke for the apostles (Matt. 18:21, Mark 8:29, Luke 12:41, John 6:68-69), and he figured in many of the most dramatic scenes (Matt. 14:28-32, Matt. 17:24-27, Mark 10:23-28). On Pentecost it was Peter who first preached to the crowds (Acts 2:14-40), and he worked the first healing in the Church age (Acts 3:6-7). It is Peter’s faith that will strengthen his brethren (Luke 22:32) and Peter is given Christ’s flock to shepherd (John 21:17). An angel was sent to announce the resurrection to Peter (Mark 16:7), and the risen Christ first appeared to Peter (Luke 24:34). He headed the meeting that elected Matthias to replace Judas (Acts 1:13-26), and he received the first converts (Acts 2:41). He inflicted the first punishment (Acts 5:1-11), and excommunicated the first heretic (Acts 8:18-23). He led the first council in Jerusalem (Acts 15), and announced the first dogmatic decision (Acts 15:7-11). It was to Peter that the revelation came that Gentiles were to be baptized and accepted as Christians (Acts 10:46-48).
A
Angainor
Guest
[/quote]
JSmitty2005:
Take a step back and take a look at what is happening to Christianity. You said yourself that ecclesial communities are imploding. You want to know how Christians should be able to tell which denomination is right? Do you think it is the denominations that proclaim the truth that are imploding? No? Do you think this is by accident?
Now, applying Occam’s Razor, do you think it is necessary to add a layer of complexity that is Catholicism to explain what is going on? The Church is charged with preserving the truth, which she is doing. False teachings are dying on the vine. The truth will live on.
You gave a [post=1395349]string of Bible passages[/post] that told us there would be false prophets who read what they want into scripture. We should not be surpriesed that there are those people around today. The solution to that is to not read what you want into scripture and to not associate with those that do. They are God’s charge, not yours.
Can I ask you to participate in one mental exercise? Forget for one moment everything you know about The Church. Get ready to apply a little Occam’s Razor.JSmitty2005:
I have total faith that the Church will continue teaching the truth for all of eternity.Isn’t this exactly what is happening to non-Catholic ecclesial communities? They are imploding due to these never ending splits.
Angainor:
“To Him be glory in the Church and in Christ Jesus down through all the ages of time without end.” Ephesians 3:21
But when I refer to “the Church,” I mean the Holy Roman Catholic Church and Her alone. You mean some kind of denominational hodgepodge, do you not?
Take a step back and take a look at what is happening to Christianity. You said yourself that ecclesial communities are imploding. You want to know how Christians should be able to tell which denomination is right? Do you think it is the denominations that proclaim the truth that are imploding? No? Do you think this is by accident?
Now, applying Occam’s Razor, do you think it is necessary to add a layer of complexity that is Catholicism to explain what is going on? The Church is charged with preserving the truth, which she is doing. False teachings are dying on the vine. The truth will live on.
You gave a [post=1395349]string of Bible passages[/post] that told us there would be false prophets who read what they want into scripture. We should not be surpriesed that there are those people around today. The solution to that is to not read what you want into scripture and to not associate with those that do. They are God’s charge, not yours.
M
montanaman
Guest
I’m not sure why you quoted that. It says nothing about Peter, but it DOES show that Christ had a hierarchy in mind with someone at the top.
J
JSmitty2005
Guest
I’m no philosophy major, but I have heard of Occam’s Razor before. Do you know where? In Peter Kreeft’s book A Refutation of Moral Relativism. Automatically that sends up a red flag in my head. However, from what I know about it, it seems to lead to a kind of pan-Christianity (as one of the popes called it) in which Christ’s religion is whittled down to the lowest common denominator. Occam’s Razor says that “one should not make more assumptions than the minimum needed.” So, what is “the minimum needed” when it comes to Christianity? Who decides what is essential from what isn’t?
Can I ask you to participate in one mental exercise? Forget for one moment everything you know about The Church. Get ready to apply a little Occam’s Razor.
Take a step back and take a look at what is happening to Christianity. You said yourself that ecclesial communities are imploding. You want to know how Christians should be able to tell which denomination is right? Do you think it is the denominations that proclaim the truth that are imploding? No? Do you think this is by accident?
Now, applying Occam’s Razor, do you think it is necessary to add a layer of complexity that is Catholicism to explain what is going on? The Church is charged with preserving the truth, which she is doing. False teachings are dying on the vine. The truth will live on.
You gave a [post=1395349]string of Bible passages[/post] that told us there would be false prophets who read what they want into scripture. We should not be surpriesed that there are those people around today. The solution to that is to not read what you want into scripture and to not associate with those that do. They are God’s charge, not yours.
“Then Jesus approached and said to them, ‘All power in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit, teaching them to observe ALL that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age.’” (Matthew 28:18-20)
It does not sound like Our Lord believed in using Occam’s Razor.
J
JSmitty2005
Guest
Will you take me up on this offer? Just PM me with your address and I’ll have it sent to you ASAP.
J
JSmitty2005
Guest
Yes I did. What they do is called eisegesis (as opposed to exegesis). Now, I ask you, how do you know that what you’ve been taught all your life hasn’t been from such people (not that they intended this)? Or, how do you know that every time you pick up your Bible you’re not inadvertantly reading your preconceived ideas into it?
O
onesimplemind
Guest
Now, applying Occam’s Razor, do you think it is necessary to add a layer of complexity that is Catholicism to explain what is going on? The Church is charged with preserving the truth, which she is doing. False teachings are dying on the vine. The truth will live on.
“Multiples should not be posited without necessity”
Does that apply to your definition of the church?
A
Angainor
Guest
Oh, I don’t know, maybe because it was a command to the Apostles not to be like kings who exercise authority over the Gentiles.
A
Angainor
Guest
Sorry it set off alarm bells. I would not use that particular tool on Christian doctrines.
My only point was that I do not see the need to add the complexity of Catholicism to the mix when it comes to the Church’s responsibility to preserving the truth when the truth is being preserved without Catholicism.
False Churches are imploding. Did Catholicism have anything to do with this?
J
JSmitty2005
Guest
No it isn’t. The sliver of truth that you maintain as a Protestant was handed to you by Catholicism and you are eternally indebted to it for that reason.
You’re right, false churches are imploding (including the Lutheran religion which allows women pastors, sodomites, and abortion). Also, I would hope that Catholicism has something to do with stamping out heresy. The Church has been charged with preserving the Deposit of Faith. Defending the Truth sometimes means attacking error.
J
JSmitty2005
Guest
Can you elaborate on what you mean by “the complexity of Catholicism”? It seems as though many people have this perception, but as a lifelong Catholic I honestly don’t have a clue about what is so complex.
O
onesimplemind
Guest
I am starting to really like this Occam Razor deal.
The “complex” truth of Catholicism vs. the truth of a bunch of different churches with various histories and beliefs and interpretations.
“The simplest answer is usually the correct answer.”
- Status