Sola Scriptura--now I get

[jim1130]

kujo313:

I think they prefer to be called “Christians”.
Catholics call themselves “catholics” before “christians”. I just saw on the History channel about antipopes.

Talk about taking Christ out of Christmas…

Peace.

Well, if it was on The History Channel then it MUST be true Does this mean that you also follow the good books of Time and Newsweek when they devote articles to Christianity?

Are you not the same person who based his image of the Catholic Church on the 1953 movie “Luther”?

Since the media plays an important role in how you interpret the world, I suppose that this explains why you do not revere Christ’s mother, Mary: It is all because of the portrayal of mothers and motherhood in general as demonstrated in the movie “Mommie Dearest.”

Peace.

 

[MrS]

boy, I guess kujo really stepped in it this time huh

http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/10/10_2_7.gif

 

[kujo313]

MrS:

guess I should have added a to the post

Luther was anti-the-Pope

Further…any theology or person who rejects what Christ Himself established is an anti-Christ Yes?

“rejects” or “replaces” or puts beside Jesus.

 

[kujo313]

JSmitty2005:

The History Channel…

“Christian is my name, and Catholic my surname. The one designates me, while the other makes me specific. Thus am I attested and set apart… When we are called Catholics it is by this appellation that our people are kept apart from any heretical name.” -St. Pacian of Barcelona, Letter to Sympronian, 375 A.D.

“Christian” is a relationship with God. “Catholic” is a religion, man made.

 

[montanaman]

“Christian” is a relationship with God. “Catholic” is a religion, man made.

Now you’re just throwing out ignorant anti-Catholic talking points.

“Non-denominational” “Jesus pal” religions are man-made.

 

[MrS]

“Christian” is a relationship with God. “Catholic” is a religion, man made.

nope:nope: nope:nope: nope:nope:

religion is from the Greek which means “a relationship” with God.

We all have a religion… some more strained than others.

Thus not all modern christians have access to a fullness of the truth, and thus their “religion” or “relationship” must be found wanting.

The early Church members were certainly "Christian’ in their desires… but those desires for a full “religion” or “relationship” with God could only be properly and authoritively found in the Church Jesus founded (the only Church He founded).

By the year 100 or so that Church was called Catholic.

By the year 1500 or so, protesters shunned the name.

Come on home so you can be not only a Christian, but one with access to the fullness of the Faith - a Catholic Christian,

 

[believers]

MrS:

guess I should have added a to the post

Luther was anti-the-Pope

Further…any theology or person who rejects what Christ Himself established is an anti-Christ Yes?

MrS, If the RCC is the true church… how would you interpret the greatest commandment given by Jesus which is to “love God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength”

 

[St.Eric]

believers:

MrS, If the RCC is the true church… how would you interpret the greatest commandment given by Jesus which is to “love God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength”

The following is from the CCC:

I. The life of man - to know and love God

1 God, infinitely perfect and blessed in himself, in a plan of sheer goodness freely created man to make him share in his own blessed life. For this reason, at every time and in every place, God draws close to man. He calls man to seek him, to know him, to love him with all his strength. He calls together all men, scattered and divided by sin, into the unity of his family, the Church. To accomplish this, when the fullness of time had come, God sent his Son as Redeemer and Saviour. In his Son and through him, he invites men to become, in the Holy Spirit, his adopted children and thus heirs of his blessed life.

2 So that this call should resound throughout the world, Christ sent forth the apostles he had chosen, commissioning them to proclaim the gospel: "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age."4 Strengthened by this mission, the apostles "went forth and preached everywhere, while the Lord worked with them and confirmed the message by the signs that attended it."5

3 Those who with God’s help have welcomed Christ’s call and freely responded to it are urged on by love of Christ to proclaim the Good News everywhere in the world. This treasure, received from the apostles, has been faithfully guarded by their successors. All Christ’s faithful are called to hand it on from generation to generation, by professing the faith, by living it in fraternal sharing, and by celebrating it in liturgy and prayer.6

 

[MrS]

believers:

MrS, If the RCC is the true church… how would you interpret the greatest commandment given by Jesus which is to “love God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength”

1. But when the Pharisees had heard that he had put the Sadducees to silence, they were gathered together.
2. Then one of them, which was a Lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying,
3. Master, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?
4. Jesus said to him, You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.
5. This is the first and greatest commandment.
6. And the second is like to it, You shall love your neighbor as yourself.
7. On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.

According to the Fathers…
Christ’s answer was a response to…

JEROME. The Pharisees having been themselves already confuted (in the matter of the denarius), and now seeing their adversaries also overthrown, should have taken warning to attempt no further deceit against Him; but hate and jealousy are the parents of impudence.
ORIGEN; Jesus had put the Sadducees to silence, to show that the tongue of falsehood is silenced by the brightness of truth. For as it belongs to the righteous man to be silent when it is good to be silent, and to speak when it is good to speak, and not to hold his peace so it belongs to every teacher of a lie not indeed to be silent, but to be silent as far as any good purpose is concerned.
JEROME; The Pharisees and Sadducees, thus foes to one another, unite in one common purpose to tempt Jesus.
ORIGEN; All who thus ask questions of any teacher to try him, and not to learn of him, we must regard as brethren of this Pharisee, according to what is said below, Inasmuch as you have done it to one of the least of mine, you have done it to me.
AUG. Let no one find a difficulty in this, that Matthew speaks of this man as putting his question to tempt the Lord, whereas Mark does not mention this, but concludes with what the Lord said to him upon his answering wisely, You are not far from the kingdom of God. For it is possible that, though he came to tempt, yet the Lord’s answer may have wrought correction within him. Or, the tempting here meant need not be that of one designing to deceive an enemy, but rather the cautious approach of one making proof of a stranger. And that is not written in vain, Who believes lightly, he is of a vain heart. ORIGEN; He said Master tempting Him, for none but a disciple would thus address Christ. Whoever then does not learn of the Word, nor yields himself wholly up to it, yet calls it Master, he is brother to this Pharisee thus tempting Christ. Perhaps while they read the Law before the Savior’s coming, it was as a question among them which was the great commandment in it; nor w would the Pharisee have asked this, if it had not been long time inquired among themselves, but never found till Jesus came and declared it.
PSEUDO-CHRYS. He who now inquires for the greatest commandment had not observed the least. He only ought to seek for a higher righteousness who has fulfilled the lower.

cont…

 

[MrS]

cont …

PSEUDO-CHRYS. But the Lord so answers him, as at once to lay bare the dissimulation of his inquiry, Jesus said to him, You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind. You shall love, not ‘fear,’ for to love is more than to fear; to fear belongs to slaves, to love to sons; fear is in compulsion, love in freedom. Whoever serves God in fear escapes punishment, but has not the reward of righteousness because he did well unwillingly through fear. God does not desire to be served servilely by men as a master, but to be loved as a father, for that He has given the spirit of adoption to men. **But to love God with the whole heart, is to have the heart inclined to the love of no one thing more than of God. **To love God again with the whole soul is to have the mind stayed upon the truth, and to be firm in the faith. For the love of the heart and the love of the soul are different. The first is in a sort carnal, that we should love God even with our flesh, which we cannot do unless we first depart from the love of the things of this world. The love of the heart is felt in the heart, but the love of the soul is not felt, but is perceived because it consists in a judgment of the soul. For he who believes that all good is in God, and that without Him is no good, he loves God with his whole soul. But to love God with the whole mind, is to have all the faculties open and unoccupied for Him. He only loves God with his whole mind, whose intellect ministers to God, whose wisdom is employed about God, whose thoughts travail in the things of God, and whose memory holds the things which are good.
AUG. Or otherwise; You are commanded to love God with all your heart, that your whole thoughts - with all your soul, that your whole life - with all your mind, that your whole understanding - may be given to Him from whom you have that you give. Thus He has left no part of our life which may justly be unfilled of Him, or give place to the desire after any other final good; but if aught else present itself for the soul’s love, it should be absorbed into that channel in which the whole current of love runs. For man is then the most perfect when his whole life tends towards the life unchangeable, and clings to it with the whole purpose of his soul.
GLOSS. Or, with all your heart, understanding; with all your soul, i.e. your will; with all your mind, i.e. memory; so you shall think, will, remember nothing contrary to Him.

ORIGEN; . If the Lord had given no to the Pharisee who thus tempted Him, we should have judged that there was no commandment greater than the rest. But when the Lord adds, This is the first and greatest commandment, we learn how we ought to think of the commandments, that there is a great one, and that there are less down to the least. And the Lord says not only that it is a great, but that it is the first commandment, not in order of Scripture, but in supremacy of value. They only take upon them the greatness and supremacy of this precept, who not only love the Lord their God, but add these three conditions. Nor did He only teach the first and great commandment, but added that there was a second like to the first, You shall love your neighbor as yourself. But if Whoever loves iniquity has hated his own soul, it is manifest that he does not love his neighbor as himself, when he does not love himself.

cont…

 

[MrS]

cont…

AUG. It is clear that every man is to be regarded as a neighbor, because evil is to be done to no man. Further, if everyone to whom we are bound to show service of mercy, or who is bound to show it to us, be rightly called our neighbor, it is manifest that in this precept are comprehended the holy Angels who perform for us those services of which we may read in Scripture. Whence also our Lord Himself would be called our neighbor; for it was Himself whom He represents as the good Samaritan, who gave succor to the man who was left half-dead by the way.
ID. He that loves men ought to love them either because they are righteous, or that they may be righteous; and so also ought he to love himself either for that he is, or that he may be righteous. And thus without peril he may love his neighbor as himself.
ID. But if even yourself you ought not to love for your own sake, but because of Him in whom is the rightful end of y our love, let not another man be displeased that you love even him for God’s sake. Whoever then rightly loves his neighbor, ought to endeavor with him that he also with his whole heart love God.
PSEUDO-CHRYS. But who loves man is as who loves God; for man is God’s image, wherein God is loved, as a King is honored in his statue. For this cause this commandment is said to be like the first.

It follows, On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.
AUG. Hang, that is, refer thither as their end.
RABAN. For to these two commandments belongs the whole decalogue; the commandments of the first table to the love of God, those of the second to the love of our neighbor.
ORIGEN; Or, because he that has fulfilled the things that are written concerning the love of God and our neighbor, is worthy to receive from God the great reward, that he should be enabled to understand the Law and the Prophets.
AUG. You shall love your neighbor as yourself. And that because if a man love his neighbor, it follows therefrom that he loves God also; for it is the selfsame affection by which we love God, and by which we love our neighbor, save that we love God for Himself, but ourselves and our neighbor for God’s sake.
ID. But since the Divine substance is more excellent i and higher than our nature, the command to love God is distinct from that to love our neighbor. But if by yourself, you understand your whole self, that is both your soul and your body, and in like manner of your neighbor, there is no sort of things to be loved omitted in these commands. The love of God goes first, and the rule thereof is so set out to us as to make all other loves center in that, so that nothing seems said of loving yourself. But then follows, You shall love your neighbor as yourself, so that love of yourself is not omitted.

• In summary,… if we love God FIRST, we will love His Church and all the other graces He has given us.

If we love ourselves FIRST, we have lost … the solas reject authority that has come from God… so we then love our own interpretations first, and try to understand love for God by our desires, not His.

 

[kujo313]

MrS:

cont…

AUG. It is clear that every man is to be regarded as a neighbor, because evil is to be done to no man. Further, if everyone to whom we are bound to show service of mercy, or who is bound to show it to us, be rightly called our neighbor, it is manifest that in this precept are comprehended the holy Angels who perform for us those services of which we may read in Scripture. Whence also our Lord Himself would be called our neighbor; for it was Himself whom He represents as the good Samaritan, who gave succor to the man who was left half-dead by the way.
ID. He that loves men ought to love them either because they are righteous, or that they may be righteous; and so also ought he to love himself either for that he is, or that he may be righteous. And thus without peril he may love his neighbor as himself.
ID. But if even yourself you ought not to love for your own sake, but because of Him in whom is the rightful end of y our love, let not another man be displeased that you love even him for God’s sake. Whoever then rightly loves his neighbor, ought to endeavor with him that he also with his whole heart love God.
PSEUDO-CHRYS. But who loves man is as who loves God; for man is God’s image, wherein God is loved, as a King is honored in his statue. For this cause this commandment is said to be like the first.

It follows, On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.
AUG. Hang, that is, refer thither as their end.
RABAN. For to these two commandments belongs the whole decalogue; the commandments of the first table to the love of God, those of the second to the love of our neighbor.
ORIGEN; Or, because he that has fulfilled the things that are written concerning the love of God and our neighbor, is worthy to receive from God the great reward, that he should be enabled to understand the Law and the Prophets.
AUG. You shall love your neighbor as yourself. And that because if a man love his neighbor, it follows therefrom that he loves God also; for it is the selfsame affection by which we love God, and by which we love our neighbor, save that we love God for Himself, but ourselves and our neighbor for God’s sake.
ID. But since the Divine substance is more excellent i and higher than our nature, the command to love God is distinct from that to love our neighbor. But if by yourself, you understand your whole self, that is both your soul and your body, and in like manner of your neighbor, there is no sort of things to be loved omitted in these commands. The love of God goes first, and the rule thereof is so set out to us as to make all other loves center in that, so that nothing seems said of loving yourself. But then follows, You shall love your neighbor as yourself, so that love of yourself is not omitted.

• In summary,… if we love God FIRST, we will love His Church and all the other graces He has given us.

If we love ourselves FIRST, we have lost … the solas reject authority that has come from God… so we then love our own interpretations first, and try to understand love for God by our desires, not His.

Matt 15

6 Thus you have made the commandment of God of no effect by your tradition.
14 Let them alone. They are blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind leads the blind, both will fall into a ditch.”

If this “authority” is going the wrong way, are we to follow? Some of your “traditions” lead people astray. Yet, we “Protestants” go back to the Bible for clues to which way Christ wants us to go.
Catholics make up traditions that have little or nothing to do with God’s Word and they call it “tradition”. If they can, they try to get a pope to agree with them.

 

[montanaman]

Looks like kujo’s reverted back into a run-of-the-mill anti-Catholic. He’s not even trying anymore.

Catholic: Proof of Tradition, Proof of Tradition, Proof of Tradition, Proof of Tradition, Proof of Tradition, Proof of Tradition, etc…

Kujo: The Bible rejects traditions!

Well, not according to your own Bible, lil’ doggy.

 

[Mickey]

kujo313:

If this “authority” is going the wrong way, are we to follow?

No.

kujo313:

Some of your “traditions” lead people astray.

Sacred Tradition never leads people astray.

kujo313:

Yet, we “Protestants” go back to the Bible for clues to which way Christ wants us to go…

Clues?

kujo313:

Catholics make up traditions that have little or nothing to do with God’s Word and they call it “tradition”.

Is this your opinion?

kujo313:

If they can, they try to get a pope to agree with them.

Can’t respond…laughing too hard… smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/36/36_11_6.gif

 

[MrS]

kujo313:

Matt 15

6 Thus you have made the commandment of God of no effect by your tradition.
14 Let them alone. They are blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind leads the blind, both will fall into a ditch.”

If this “authority” is going the wrong way, are we to follow? Some of your “traditions” lead people astray. Yet, we “Protestants” go back to the Bible for clues to which way Christ wants us to go.
Catholics make up traditions that have little or nothing to do with God’s Word and they call it “tradition”. If they can, they try to get a pope to agree with them.

no, don’t follow

now… name me one TRADITION (not practice, not discipline, not opinion of a pope or council) that has changed… and I will become your follower.

When you understand that TRADITION is a presentation of the TRUTH
just as
SCRIPTURE is a presentation of the TRUTH
just as
MAGISTERIUM (TEACHING BODY) is a presentation of the TRUTH

you will then make a kind apology to all Catholics, even the ones who don’t know any better than you do right now.

 

[jim1130]

kujo313:

Matt 15

6 Thus you have made the commandment of God of no effect by your tradition.
14 Let them alone. They are blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind leads the blind, both will fall into a ditch.”

If this “authority” is going the wrong way, are we to follow? Some of your “traditions” lead people astray. Yet, we “Protestants” go back to the Bible for clues to which way Christ wants us to go.
Catholics make up traditions that have little or nothing to do with God’s Word and they call it “tradition”. If they can, they try to get a pope to agree with them.

Peace.

I would think that before you could adhere to the Scripture you would need to determine its origin and canon.

If you have not already done so, visit this thread, “How do Protestants know which Canon to use?” and refer to Post 43-44: forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=103988, which is a brilliantly written piece. It may prove to be helpful.

Peace.

 

[kujo313]

MrS:

nope:nope: nope:nope: nope:nope:

religion is from the Greek which means “a relationship” with God.

We all have a religion… some more strained than others.

Thus not all modern christians have access to a fullness of the truth, and thus their “religion” or “relationship” must be found wanting.

The early Church members were certainly "Christian’ in their desires… but those desires for a full “religion” or “relationship” with God could only be properly and authoritively found in the Church Jesus founded (the only Church He founded).

By the year 100 or so that Church was called Catholic.

By the year 1500 or so, protesters shunned the name.

Come on home so you can be not only a Christian, but one with access to the fullness of the Faith - a Catholic Christian,

“Home” is full of detours and more and one path. I’d rather go straight to the Throne.
To actually have “fullness of the Faith” you’d have to be grafted into the the Messiah of God’s chosen people. Gentiles are grafted into the Vine.
The “Vine” is not the church, but it is Christ.

You believe that “believers” have to DO something for penance until salvation. Actually, it’ not. Salvation comes to those who openly accept God’s “Sacrifice”. His sacrificial Lamb: Jesus.

Jesus said that there is no other way. None. His “Church” is built on “You are the Christ! The Son of the Living God.” Not just any one person but Jesus. He is our Cornerstone. The fact that Jesus IS the Christ, the Son of the Living God: THAT’S what the Church is built on. All who proclaim that IS the Church.

What about Mary? You ask. We know from Scripture all we need to know. But what about her…??
We’re trying to get to Heaven. What’s it to anybody if Mary is there or not or how she got there. We’re trying to get there, too.

But we dont have to go through Mary or anybody else to get there.

“Home” doesn’t accept the words and teaching of Jesus or the apostles. There’s some other words from other centuries mixed in there that don’t line up to what Jesus started.
Thus, those who teach that are leading people astray.

Matthew 24
4 And Jesus answered and said to them: “Take heed that no one deceives you.
5 For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will deceive many."

“Blind” people join the Catholic church and don’t realize that some “traditions” don’t jive with Scripture.

I wouldn’t mind the “traditions” if they lined up with the Word.

 

[JSmitty2005]

kujo313:

I wouldn’t mind the “traditions” if they lined up with the Word.

So, you’re saying that you’ll accept an extra-biblical tradition as long as it is not anti-biblical, right?

 

[Stephen_Butler]

kujo313:

Matt 15

6 Thus you have made the commandment of God of no effect by your tradition.
14 Let them alone. They are blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind leads the blind, both will fall into a ditch.”

If this “authority” is going the wrong way, are we to follow? Some of your “traditions” lead people astray. Yet, we “Protestants” go back to the Bible for clues to which way Christ wants us to go.
Catholics make up traditions that have little or nothing to do with God’s Word and they call it “tradition”. If they can, they try to get a pope to agree with them.

First, let’s play nice please. Regardless of what Kujo313 has to say or how he says it, we should treat him with the courtesy of 2 Timothy 2:23-26.

To that end, kujo313 has almost made a point. He quoted Mathew 15. I can see where he is going with it. Here it is:

Then Pharisees and scribes came to Jesus from Jerusalem and said, “Why do your disciples break the tradition of the elders? They do not wash (their) hands when they eat a meal.” He said to them in reply, "And why do you break the commandment of God for the sake of your tradition? For God said, ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and ‘Whoever curses father or mother shall die.’ But you say, ‘Whoever says to father or mother, "Any support you might have had from me is dedicated to God,"need not honor his father.’ You have nullified the word of God for the sake of your tradition.

He’s making a very valid and very important point. The Pharisees were entrusted stewards of God’s people. As such, they also had traditions which were strongly incorporated portions of the faith. As Jesus pointed out, they had permitted those traditions to override the commands of God. Those commands were the ten commandments. In this particular case, honor your father and your mother.

Kujo is implying that the traditions of the Catholic Church have done the same thing. It’s a beneficial challenge whether it is true or not and deserves to be respected.

So which dogmatic Catholic tradition challenges the command of God? Note, I emphasize dogmatic. There are many traditions of the Catholic Church which are not divinely infallible, such as the chastity of Priests.

How about the Bible itself? The validity, authority, and divine inspiration of the New Testament is itself a dogmatic Catholic tradition. It is by tradition that we know the authors of the books. It is by tradition that the divinely inspired books were chosen. It is by tradition that non-divinely inspired books (or books we were not SURE were divinely inspired) were excluded. Does anything in the New Testament override the commands of God? How about other dogmatic traditions which originated from the same apostles such as the Catholic tradition of the Eucharist, the literal body and blood of Christ? Does this override the command of God?

Which dogmatic Catholic tradition overrides one of the ten commandments? You will find, with thorough review, that none of them do. Catholic Tradition, including the Bible, handed from Christ to his apostles, and from his apostles to the Church, and carefully preserved by the Church through history is the basis of our faith today. It is quite consistent with the ten commandments, but I do understand if you disagree. I would suggest that selecting a specific tradition would be more productive than a blanket generalization which is, by its very nature, vague.

 

[montanaman]

I’m all for throwing free speech pretensions into the wind with this guy. He has no interest in anything but spouting anti-Catholic talking points, unlike several of the other sincere non-Catholics on this board.