Could tell me how, in which way, Lutherans claim to be a valid continuation of the western church?
We’re theologically and corporially descended from the churches, priests, partitioners, and bishops in Germany and other countries that (for various reasons) found themselves no longer in communion with the Bishop of Rome.
Lutherans tend not to make stridently positive pronouncements about other church traditions, but it’s safe to say that most Lutherans would generally recognize the Orthodox, Catholic and some Anglican churches as being being good hospitals for sinners.
Jon,
Well, the RCC can prove its lineage back to the original Apostles. If you believe that merely a claim, no problem. I guess I was wondering how the Evangelical Lutheran Church can do the same since you said in your earlier post that the Lutheran Church is a continuation of the Early Church. Could you elaborate on that and explain how?
Hi Eric,
Well, not here, but I would agree with your statement, since sola scriptura itself is not an article of faith. Its a practice.
Generally yes. One example sometimes used to refute *sola scriptura *is the Doctrine of the Trinity. I would contend that the doctrine of the Trinity is more than simply implicit. Same with infant Baptism.
Hi PR,
A continuation only…but not necessarily the true church…since the true western church has bishops…7 sacraments ( not two that lutherans have)…has apostolic succession from thr bishop of rome…and do not call the pope the anti christ…
Be aware though. Lutherans confess that our pope is anti-christ…so, how can they be a western church’s continuation if they confess such?
We wouldn’t discount those claims as it’s the foundation for our own linage to the Apostles.
From a Catholic perspective, I would imagine that our church may very well look like we’re a ‘offshoot’ or a ‘schism’ from your church. From our perspective, we’re the same church as we’ve always been with a period of reflection, repentance, and reformation in the 16th century.
Good question - Some Lutherans don’t worry about those outside of the church and work out their own salvation with fear and trembling. Other Lutherans, study and digest the claims and history of other Christian churches so that we may prayerfully bring about reunification and reconciliation that we we all may be one. (John 17:21)
And, this is not what we confess. In fact, no Lutheran should claim that any pope is or was anti-Christ, or the Anti-Christ. What we do say is that the teaching that the pope has universal jurisdiction over the whole Church is opposed to, or anti Christ. Of particular concern to the reformers was the claim made in Unam sanctam that it is necessary to be in communion with the Bishop of Rome in order to be saved.
Well, Jon, that’s the problem, isn’t it, with declaring Scripture the “norming norm for all doctrines”.
There really is no problem on the question you asked, Was there, PR?
What do you mean by “harm the Gospel”?
Sure it does! Did you read Galatians 3? Just like withholding baptism from infants. When we withhold the sacraments, that harms the Gospel.
So you are against withholding the ministerial priesthood from women?
EDIT to above: should say “We are permitted to do this because Scripture doesn’t forbid it”.
Let the love flow,The following is the recent position of WELS on the anti-Christ, as stated by Rev. Mark G. Schroeder, President of the Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod:
*"Luther and the Lutheran Confessions identified the Roman Catholic Papacy as the Antichrist for three main reasons: First, the Papacy claimed to speak with an authority—even infallibility—that was equal to or surpassing the Word of God itself. By doing so, it put itself in a position of being “anti” or “in place of” Christ. Second, the Papacy claimed that there is no salvation outside of the Roman Catholic Church, making membership in a human organization a condition for salvation; finally, in emphasizing that faith and obedience are necessary for salvation, the Papacy undermined the very heart and center of the biblical teaching that salvation is by God’s grace alone and comes to individuals through faith in Christ alone. In holding to each of these teachings, the Roman Catholic Papacy placed itself in clear opposition to the foundation of the Christian faith, and therefore in opposition to Christ himself.
Although the Roman Catholic Church may have softened the way in which it refers to these doctrines, it has never repudiated or corrected them.
While WELS continues to see the characteristics of the Antichrist in the Roman Catholic Papacy, it is wrong and dishonest to portray this belief as stemming from anti-Catholic bigotry. We do have strong convictions and we identify what we believe are teachings that depart from the Word of God. But we hold no animosity toward Christians who hold the Roman Catholic faith and we respect the right of people t To hold beliefs different from ours even as we point out the error. Furthermore, we rejoice that even in the Roman Catholic Church, where we believe that the gospel has been distorted, there are many Catholics who hold to a simple faith in Jesus Christ as their Savior and who will ultimately be saved. Testifying to the errors that still exist in Catholic doctrine is itself an expression of love; remaining silent or glossing over doctrinal differences would express the opposite."*
Doesn’t leave me feeling real warm and fuzzy.
The main point Rev. Schroeder seems to be making is that even though they still believe the Pope is the anti-Christ we shouldn’t accuse Lutherans of bigotry as it is, in fact, an expression of love.
Steve
We would say the same about Unam sanctam and the claim of universal jurisdiction.