Sola Scriptura questions

[PRmerger]

You all only think God and salvation is unknowable outside the CC. That everything must come from Rome or it’s not kosher.

This, again, jericho, is an example of your poor catechesis. You do not know what the Catholic church teaches.

The Catholic Church does not think “God and salvation is unknowable outside the CC”

See what you should have been taught by your catechists:

The Catholic Church recognizes in other religions that search, among shadows and images, for the God who is unknown yet near since he gives life and breath and all things and wants all men to be saved. Thus, the Church considers all goodness and truth found in these religions as "a preparation for the Gospel and given by him who enlightens all men that they may at length have life.–Catechism 843

 

[PRmerger]

Since GOD authored scripture it is infallible.

That’s a very Catholic statement.

However, you need to think about how God authored Scripture. He did not magically write it down and send it to earth. He used men. Catholic men. Catholic ordained men.

You see men deciding where I see God bringing His will to pass.

No dichotomy there.

You have not been able to go beyond “God did this”, somehow.

Please think about this “somehow”, jericho. HOW did God bring His will in writing the sacred scriptures to pass?

 

[jphilapy]

Only what God ordained Paul to write as scripture was under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.

I am not sure why you chose not to answer directly, but I will take that as a no, you don’t believe every single thing Paul wrote was ordained by God as scripture.

So how did the first century christians know that what Paul wrote to them in 2Tim 3:15 was actually ordained from God as scripture and not just a mistake from Paul himself? Since they didn’t have any scripture telling them that principle already, they needed some way to test what Paul said to know if it was from God.

You wrote: "You all only think God and salvation is unknowable outside the CC. That everything must come from Rome or it’s not kosher. "

Apparently that is response to me: “Uh he was telling them who God is, and going to Paul is going to the church. Where do you get the idea that it isn’t?”

But you didn’t answer my question. waiting…

 

[guanophore]

So for 400 years there was no word of God for believers to rely on.

This is the logical conclusion of Sola Scriptura.

Perhaps you can see what a ridiculous notion it is?

Pharaoh had no choice to do the will of God did he.

Sure he did! He could have let them go…but, he refused to obey the Word of God that came infallibly through God’s chosen servant, Moses.

In the end, he never did do the will of God, and his armies perished in the sea because of it.

 

[guanophore]

You all only think God and salvation is unknowable outside the CC. That everything must come from Rome or it’s not kosher.

Not only is this wrong, but the Catholic Church teaches the opposite of what you say here.

In addition, the CC is not “Roman”, nor does her Truth come from Rome. The Source of the Truth that is in the CC is Jesus. He was never in Rome. Just his vicar.

The Trinity is very present in both NT and OT. When the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are all held equally in scripture then they are.

It seems this way to you because you have already accepted the Apostolic TEaching on the Trinity when you read the Scripture. Those who reject this understand the Scripture differently.

Purgatory goes against the finished work of Christ on the cross. If he didn’t deserve purgatory NO ONE DOES! He never did anything but believe in Jesus as Savior. I’m sure you are a much better person than he was.

No, it only seems to “go against” because you have a misunderstanding of purgatory.

None of us “deserve” purgatory. It is a grace that is freely given to His beloved BECAUSE of Jesus finished work on the cross. I am not sure who the “he” is that you are referencing here, perhaps the theif? He had his purgatory on the cross next to Christ.

Since GOD authored scripture it is infallible.

No, Jericho. You have a misunderstanding about the nature of infallibility as well. Scripture cannot be infallible because falliblity requires action, and the ability to make a mistake. This is why scripture is called inspired and inerrant. Scripture is not a person.

You are right that the authorship of scripture is an infallible act. Men, moved by the HS, spoke from God. This is a good example of an infallible act. When men, moved by the HS produce a divine result, it is called infallible.

Peter made an infallible proclamation on many occasions. One of these was when the Father revealed to him who Jesus is.

He for ordained His will apart from that of men. You see men deciding where I see God bringing His will to pass.

This is because you are not seeing the incarnational principle. You see, Scripture is clear that men were moved by God to write, and men met in council to determine what should be taught to the Church. God’s will for His Kingdom is not 'apart" from men, but “through” men!

 Your focus is on your church whereas my focus is on God alone.

Yes. This is one of the reasons you are suffering from a deficient gospel.

 

[guanophore]

The body of Christ forms His church.

Actually it is Christ who builds the Church, not the members of it.

If you mean to say that the Church is comprised of the Body, then this is true, but it still is a deficient definition.

 The church is the assembly of believers.

Yes, but this is not all there is to Church. The Church founded by Christ has Him as her Head, and the HS as her soul. She is visible, authoritative, and is the pillar and ground of the Truth. She is the means by which He manifests Himself to the world. The saints who have gone on before us are also part of that assembly.

The reason that the ecclesial communities of our separated brethren are not considered true Church is because they lack the four marks of the Church passed down to us from the Apostles.

They are, as you say “assemblies of believers”.

Your perspective is the opposite. Your church makes the body and that’s contrary to the teaching of scripture. Jesus was not talking about persecuting an organization but individual believers.

No, the Catholic perspective is not “opposite”, but it includes your definition along with the other elements that were given to us in the once for all divine deposit of faith.

I am not sure what you mean by “your church makes the body”. Jesus builds the Church by adding to it, and building the believers into the foundation as living stones.

Jesus was talking about persecuting His One Body, the Church, with which He identified Himself completely.

 

[Nicea325]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicea325
Misquoting what SS believes? Which group in particular since it varies among many non-Catholics. No offense,but your failure to see the principle of purgatory in the Bible does not make it wrong. You are no different than the Jehovah Witnesses and Mormons who feel the same about the Trinity.

The Trinity is very present in both NT and OT. When the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are all held equally in scripture then they are.

Gen 1:1 the word for God is Elohiem which is a singular plural since God is one. And incidentally it is the THIRD word used in the text. Do you think maybe God was revealing Himself as Triune in the beginning?

Purgatory goes against the finished work of Christ on the cross. If he didn’t deserve purgatory NO ONE DOES! He never did anything but believe in Jesus as Savior. I’m sure you are a much better person than he was.

The Trinity is implicit in the OT/NT,not explicit. Did the Bible gives the complex doctrine of the Trinity or did the church?

 

[Nicea325]

John 5:39-41

39 "You search the scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that testify on my behalf. 40 Yet you refuse to come to me to have life.

Jesus can be found in His One Body, the Church.

Wrong! The above verse has NOTHING to do with the doctrine of the Bible-Alone. Do not take verses out-of-context.

 

[Nicea325]

The Trinity is very present in both NT and OT. When the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are all held equally in scripture then they are.

Gen 1:1 the word for God is Elohiem which is a singular plural since God is one. And incidentally it is the THIRD word used in the text. Do you think maybe God was revealing Himself as Triune in the beginning?

Purgatory goes against the finished work of Christ on the cross. If he didn’t deserve purgatory NO ONE DOES! He never did anything but believe in Jesus as Savior. I’m sure you are a much better person than he was.

Purgatory does not against the finished work of Christ? Wrong! Apparently you have slightest idea on the doctrine.

 

[Todd520]

OneAugustK
You’ve expressed clear justification for why bible study is often done is a group setting

And what does a person do if he lacks confidence in his personal understanding of the Bible? If people tell him all he needs is the Bible, and he reads it but it makes no sense to him?

 

[PRmerger]

OneAugustK
You’ve expressed clear justification for why bible study is often done is a group setting

So are you saying that Truth can be found in a group’s decision?

 

[jphilapy]

Wrong! The above verse has NOTHING to do with the doctrine of the Bible-Alone. Do not take verses out-of-context.

???

 

[Todd520]

LOL, how did you come to that conclusion?
However, I do believe one can ask quesitons and lean better in a group

So are you saying that Truth can be found in a group’s decision?

 

[PRmerger]

LOL, how did you come to that conclusion?
However, I do believe one can ask quesitons and lean better in a group

If one best learns from a bible study, it seems that the reasoning is that when one person says, “I think this verse means ____” and the majority of the group says, “No, it means ___” then the group’s decision wins.

Otherwise, what’s the point of being in a group to “study” the bible?

 

[Todd520]

PRMerger
Why do you paint such a simplistic picture of bible study?

• maybe different people would explain why they believed something
• maybe everyone can learn and increase their knowledge without agreement
• maybe group concensus wasn’t a stated ‘ground rule’ to attend the study

Were you homeschooled, so everything your mother told you was taken as truth by the supreme authority? I’m trying to understand you dogmatic and very black and white approach to learning.

If one best learns from a bible study, it seems that the reasoning is that when one person says, “I think this verse means ____” and the majority of the group says, “No, it means ___” then the group’s decision wins.

Otherwise, what’s the point of being in a group to “study” the bible?

 

[Nicea325]

???

Yes. Jericho believes that the Bible-Alone has everything needed for salvation and his proof:

John 5:39-41

39 "You search the scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that testify on my behalf. 40 Yet you refuse to come to me to have life.

Sorry,but Jesus was not teaching the sufficieny of **scripture alone **is enough for salvation. Hence,those verses are taken out-of-context and used only to prove a false man-made tradition called the Bible-Alone.

 

[PRmerger]

PRMerger
Why do you paint such a simplistic picture of bible study?

I dunno. I guess I didn’t realize it was actually a complicated thing? Is that your point?

• maybe different people would explain why they believed something
• maybe everyone can learn and increase their knowledge without agreement
• maybe group concensus wasn’t a stated ‘ground rule’ to attend the study

Fair enough.

So someone who has no confidence in his reading of the Bible* needs someone else* to provide him with “knowledge” about this Bible.

That doesn’t seem like a very Sola Scriptura position, does it?

Were you homeschooled, so everything your mother told you was taken as truth by the supreme authority? I’m trying to understand you dogmatic and very black and white approach to learning.

Ok.

No, I was not homeschooled.

 

[jphilapy]

Yes. Jericho believes that the Bible-Alone has everything needed for salvation and his proof:

Yep I realize that. Just your reply showed: Originally Posted by guanophore forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_khaki/viewpost.gif as the person who wrote the post. so confused.

 

[onenow1]

Verse 17"that the man of God may be COMPLETE"I would think complete means suffecient…

Indeed ! Now read chapter 2, then read chapter 3, in context, as St.Pauls instruction to Timothy, as it is meant to be read.

2Tim 2:7 Think over what I say, for the Lord will grant you understanding in everything.

God Bless
onenow1

 

[benedictus2]

LOL, how did you come to that conclusion?
However, I do believe one can ask quesitons and lean better in a group

Not if all members are as ill informed as the next. You end up just confirming each other in error.

I joined a group who were all singing from the same hymnbook then I pointed out the words are all wrong.

Groups can end up cementing one’s ignorance.