Sola Scriptura Revisited

[lax16]

I would argue that your misunderstanding.

We decree that the sacred image of our lord Jesus Christ, the redeemer and saviour of all people, should be venerated with honour equal to that given to the book of the holy gospels. For, just as through the written words which are contained in the book (book of the holy gospels), we all shall obtain salvation, so through the influence that colours in painting exercise on the imagination, all, both wise and simple, obtain benefit from what is before them; for as speech teaches and portrays through syllables, so too does painting by means of colours.

we all shall obtain salvation is a relative clause defining the book (book of the holy gospels). This clause does not relate to the sacred images and icons, but to the book (book of the holy gospels).

It easily could be reworded as such:
For, just as through the written words which are contained in the book (book of the holy gospels), we all shall obtain salvation, all, both wise and simple, obtain benefit from what is before them, sacred images and icons.

The gospel supplies salvation and benefit. The sacred images and icons supply benefit. All three should receive proper veneration and honor equally.
(However, I do not believe in venerating any sacred images and icons)

It seems to me Protestants should start venerating relics!
You can’t pick and choose…

 

[shawn38]

It seems to me Protestants should start venerating relics!
You can’t pick and choose…

Four points:

1. It’s a fine line between veneration, adoration, reverence, worshp, and idolotry. The words can be used interchangebly. The difference is a matter of degree which is subjective. A look at their definitions shows that they chain together in their meanings.

Christ does not dwell in man-made things.

1. Some of the early churches were not wrong in all their teachings. Some Judaizers preached Christ, but also observed Jewish Laws. Were they completely wrong, no!

JW and Mormon’s oppose abortion too. Should we follow their beliefs too?

1. I never said I disagreed with all the teachings of the CC.
2. As the paragraph states, salvation can be found through the book (book of the holy gospels).

 

[shawn38]

For many new Christian converts in secluded areas, the only gospel message they receive may be from a missionary. Are they doomed?

 

[simspt]

For many new Christian converts in secluded areas, the only gospel message they receive may be from a missionary. Are they doomed?

Shawn,
I think its important to realize that during the years before the canon the more immediate questions the Church was dealing with was not what book would be in or out of the canon but rather the proper interpretation of those writings. Since having a closed canon would not of helped the Catholics arguing with Marcion, the Gnostics or later the Montanists who all used the same scriptures (Gospels and Pauls letters). It wasnt a matter of which book was historically authentic but rather who had the historical authority to interpret those books. From this you can see that sola scriptura was not really an issue. If anyone were to benefit from it back then it would of been the heretics not the Christians.

 

[rinnie]

Through the Bible! Correct. The written Word. In that we will obtain salvation. It certainly does not include other sources as a means to salvation, that’s the leap. I believe that. Traditions, relics, and other things help with perspective (ie. they benefit us), but are not necessary.

Um Shawn where does it say that it is ONLY through the written word that we will obtain salvation. You are doing it again Shawn Trying to make something say what you want them to say. It won’t work.

The written word is one of the many ways.

Salvation is obtained by one way Shawn and it is through Jesus Christ. Scripture is just one of the many ways Jesus Christ taught us scripture. One of the Many!! Jesus left us the Church, he left us the Sacraments, he left us the word, he left us the APostles, he left us the Advocate the Holy Spirit, which Is the Church.

Everything that we are taught either by word or SS all is possible because of one Person. Jesus Christ. It is not through scripture that salvation is obtained. You are taking those words out of context and adding to them what you want them to say. That is not what that teaching is saying.

 

[rinnie]

[SIGN][/SIGN]

Four points:

1. It’s a fine line between veneration, adoration, reverence, worshp, and idolotry. The words can be used interchangebly. The difference is a matter of degree which is subjective. A look at their definitions shows that they chain together in their meanings.

Christ does not dwell in man-made things.

1. Some of the early churches were not wrong in all their teachings. Some Judaizers preached Christ, but also observed Jewish Laws. Were they completely wrong, no!

JW and Mormon’s oppose abortion too. Should we follow their beliefs too?

1. I never said I disagreed with all the teachings of the CC.
2. As the paragraph states, [SIGN]salvation can be found through the book [/SIGN](book of the holy gospels).

Again this is not the teaching of the RCC. Salvation can be found one way through the RCC the living Christ. Never has the Catholic Church taught that Salvation can be found in a book. This is not true.

 

[lax16]

Four points:

1. It’s a fine line between veneration, adoration, reverence, worshp, and idolotry. The words can be used interchangebly. The difference is a matter of degree which is subjective. A look at their definitions shows that they chain together in their meanings.

Christ does not dwell in man-made things.

1. Some of the early churches were not wrong in all their teachings. Some Judaizers preached Christ, but also observed Jewish Laws. Were they completely wrong, no!

JW and Mormon’s oppose abortion too. Should we follow their beliefs too?

1. I never said I disagreed with all the teachings of the CC.
2. As the paragraph states, salvation can be found through the book (book of the holy gospels).

So you are saying Protestants do venerate relics, they just don’t “over do” it like the Catholics (and Orthodox)?

 

[Texasgringo70]

Sola scriptura is not about salvation at all. It is about authority. Let me put it like this, in my line of work we work with a set of specifications from our customers. In larger projects you can fill a 4" binder with all of the specifications. Typically you will find a “hierarchy of specifications” statement somewhere that will tell you which specification can trump which. Sola scriptura, like the “hierarchy of specifications” statement, simply states that in case of a conflict in decrees or doctrines that scripture is the defining document and is to be used as the standard by which all church authority is to be judged. So, if the bible says salvation comes from God through faith in Jesus Christ and a preacher or priest says that salvation comes through rubbing your tummy and patting your head on the first Friday night of the month then we should trust what the bible says and not what the preacher or priest says.

At the time this was started the Bible was written in Latin, and Mas was in Latin. If you didn’t read, write and speak Latin (in other words just a commoner) you had no idea what was going on. Your only source of truth was the local priest, and there were instances where that position of authority was abused. A common man could not pull his Bible off the shelf to see if what he was just told squares with scripture. Sola scriptura was intended to correct that abuse.

 

[shawn38]

[SIGN][/SIGN]

Again this is not the teaching of the RCC. Salvation can be found one way through the RCC the living Christ. Never has the Catholic Church taught that Salvation can be found in a book. This is not true.

Rinnie,

You just hate the fact that the RCC testified via canon that salvation can be found through the book. You can try to spin it, twist it, and manipulate it any which way possible, but it doesn’t change the fact. It’s all about faith in Christ Rinnie.

Fourth Council of Constantinople : 869-870

Canon 3 First paragraph

We decree that the sacred image of our lord Jesus Christ, the redeemer and saviour of all people, should be venerated with honour equal to that given to the book of the holy gospels. For, just as through the written words which are contained in the book (book of the holy gospels), we all shall obtain salvation, so through the influence that colours in painting exercise on the imagination, all, both wise and simple, obtain benefit from what is before them; for as speech teaches and portrays through syllables, so too does painting by means of colours. It is only right then, in accordance with true reason and very ancient tradition, that icons should be honoured and venerated in a derivative way because of the honour which is given to their archetypes, and it should be equal to that given to the sacred book of the holy gospels and the representation of the precious cross.

 

[Loboto-Me]

Sola scriptura was intended to correct that abuse.

And look where it’s landed non-Catholics. They can’t figure out heads or tails of their own salvation. One sect believes their saved by a one time prayer, another believes in sacraments, yet another thinks that dancing with snakes is a sign of their faith.

 

[Loboto-Me]

For, just as through the written words which are contained in the book (book of the holy gospels), we all shall obtain salvation,

Yup through the written word… ALL of the written word. No ignoring the Real Presence, the Authority and how that authority can bind and loose on earth and it will be bound or loosed in heaven. Confession to a priest, the faith AND works, Mary or the proper interpretation of those who actually put those documents he’s talking about together.

I wonder what Jesus means by binding and loosing? If for some very good and pious reason the Pope suddenly decreed that part of our salvation was to drink holy water on the fist friday of every month and wear yellow hats,(binding) and it was passed as part of doctrine, guess what? Heaven would bind it. What if the Pope suddenly decreed that we no longer have to be abstinent before marriage,(loosing) then Heaven would also loose that requirement.

Now please understand that these are off the top of my head situations. The Holy Spirit guides the Pope in faith and morals, therefore my fake situations would not be passed… thank God!!

So much cherry picking of scripture done by those who believe that those words are their sole means of salvation. If scripture was MY only means toward salvation, I’d be studying it and using it fully (then I’d discover that Jesus actually started a physical Church and that Church is still here as promised)

 

[FantomScholar]

For what it is worth… after reading through this thread, and I know that jumping into a conversation always poses significant risks of not having followed it adequately… but I do not believe that an accurate presentation of Sola Scriptura is being presented here. At least, not in the assertions made in the original post or any of the subsequent replies and counter-replies.

 

[Beth_Martin]

Fourth Council of Constantinople : 869-870

Canon 3 First paragraph

We decree that the sacred image of our lord Jesus Christ, the redeemer and saviour of all people, should be venerated with honour equal to that given to the book of the holy gospels. For, just as through the written words which are contained in the book (book of the holy gospels), we all shall obtain salvation, so through the influence that colours in painting exercise on the imagination, all, both wise and simple, obtain benefit from what is before them; for as speech teaches and portrays through syllables, so too does painting by means of colours. It is only right then, in accordance with true reason and very ancient tradition, that icons should be honoured and venerated in a derivative way because of the honour which is given to their archetypes, and it should be equal to that given to the sacred book of the holy gospels and the representation of the precious cross.

Again. Wow!
For, just as through the written words which are contained in the book (book of the holy gospels), we all shall obtain salvation,

Does this imply that the book of the holy gospels is sufficient for salvation?

And that we obtain benefit from other things?

If you asked me I would say it is a slap in the face to the Word of God to say it should be worshipped (venerated) like an image of the Christ should be; how insulting to the Word of God and to the Lord Himself in my opinion.

 

[Beth_Martin]

Galations 3:8 **The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, {saying,} “ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU.” **

Galatians 3:22 But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

Is the promise of faith given as a gift by faith in Jesus Christ to those who have a genuine heart of repentance according to Scipture? Was it not in the Scripture that God preached the gospel, yes the gospel, to Abraham? What is beforehand, before what?

 

[Beth_Martin]

Yup through the written word… ALL of the written word. No ignoring the Real Presence, the Authority and how that authority can bind and loose on earth and it will be bound or loosed in heaven. Confession to a priest, the faith AND works, Mary or the proper interpretation of those who actually put those documents he’s talking about together.

I wonder what Jesus means by binding and loosing? If for some very good and pious reason the Pope suddenly decreed that part of our salvation was to drink holy water on the fist friday of every month and wear yellow hats,(binding) and it was passed as part of doctrine, guess what? Heaven would bind it. What if the Pope suddenly decreed that we no longer have to be abstinent before marriage,(loosing) then Heaven would also loose that requirement.

Now please understand that these are off the top of my head situations. The Holy Spirit guides the Pope in faith and morals, therefore my fake situations would not be passed… thank God!!

So much cherry picking of scripture done by those who believe that those words are their sole means of salvation. If scripture was MY only means toward salvation, I’d be studying it and using it fully (then I’d discover that Jesus actually started a physical Church and that Church is still here as promised)

Do you know that the concept that Jesus used with all of His disciples of loosing and binding was taught by all the Jewish leaders, the Sadducees, Pharisees, Scribes and chief priests? If you keep the law you are loosed from your sins and if you do not keep the law, then you are bound in your sins? Would heaven be in agreement with that? Yes.

What did these religious rulers have to say about Jesus, who they recognized as a teacher of the law, but not as God? look below and see what they said and what they called Him.

"Why does this man speak that way? He is blaspheming; who can forgive sins but God alone?"-----Mark 2:7

**The scribes and the Pharisees began to reason, saying, "Who is this {man} who speaks blasphemies? Who can forgive sins, but God alone?" ------Luke 5:21

The concept Jesus taught His or we should say reiterated to His disciples, including the apostles, is the very same and applies to all true followers of Jesus Christ even till now.

***“I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven.” ***—Matthew 16:19 (to the apostles)

---

"Truly I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven.*** ------- Matthew 18:18 (to the apostles and the disciples who were following Him - for this is a sermon; notice the similar teachings in the Sermon on the mount and the fact that there is a child there, so this is not just the apostles there, but His followers)

So if the self righteous religious leaders taught this and called Jesus a blasphemer when He said “your sins are forgiven” because they did not know or belief He was God; did they not realize what all Christians realize; it is not the messenger forgiving the sin, but the rejection of the one who sent the message of salvation, God which forgives? The answer is YES. Therefore when you make the claim that Peter and the apostles had the ability to actually and really forgive sins you are blaspheming the Lord of Hosts. Also true with anyone else who claims or is appointed to “forgive” sins, they are blasphemers. If the Pope had that ability, then why would He allow any Roman Catholic to perish? Because He has no power to forgive sins; Good alone has that power.

Why is earth and heaven mentioned in the context of agreement? Because whoever accepts the message of the gospel of Jesus Christ they are loosed and heaven agrees, since the message and the author are one and from heaven and the opposite is true.

You will not be able to handle the truth I just showed you as it is written.

As for your last statement we can all assume that you have read the Bible from cover to cover and studied it in great detail to drawl your inaccurate conclusion…right?

If you had done such a thing, which I recommend, then you would have read this verse

*For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us. 19 For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God. * 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. — Romans 8:1-21

Who are the son of God that are not yet revealed? The saints and who are the saints collectively? The church? Has the church of Jesus which He said “I will build” (still in progress) been revealed? No, so where is the promise you claim of the physical and visible church you claim is the Roman Catholic Church found in Scripture? It is not. What is visible is all the local churches and assembling of people which are both tares and wheat, but which are the tares and which are the wheat? Only God knows and the He allows obedient and mature Christian to be blessed to know with assurance as the Scripture teaches.

So you see that Scripture teaches both a visible church and a true church yet to be revealed. If you did not have such contempt for the Scripture and for God, then you might know these things from reading and studying the Scripture.

 

[rinnie]

Rinnie,

You just hate the fact that the RCC testified via canon that salvation can be found through the book. You can try to spin it, twist it, and manipulate it any which way possible, but it doesn’t change the fact. It’s all about faith in Christ Rinnie.

Fourth Council of Constantinople : 869-870

Canon 3 First paragraph

We decree that the sacred image of our lord Jesus Christ, the redeemer and saviour of all people, should be venerated with honour equal to that given to the book of the holy gospels. For, just as through the written words which are contained in the book (book of the holy gospels), we all shall obtain salvation, so through the influence that colours in painting exercise on the imagination, all, both wise and simple, obtain benefit from what is before them; for as speech teaches and portrays through syllables, so too does painting by means of colours. It is only right then, in accordance with true reason and very ancient tradition, that icons should be honoured and venerated in a derivative way because of the honour which is given to their archetypes, and it should be equal to that given to the sacred book of the holy gospels and the representation of the precious cross.

Again no it does not. It does not state that Salvation is found in the bible. It states that Salvation can be obtained by the WORDS of Jesus Christ not by a book. You continue to try to make that say something it does not say. Please read it again. Then please read that book. In that book you will find that

There are many things that are necessary for salvation.

John 3:5 No one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit. (That cannot be obtained through a book, I am sorry it must be done through the church

Mark 16:16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved. A bool cannot baptise you, I am sorry you are wrong.

THe bible is not the pillar and foundation of all truth the Church is.

Please go and read it. 1 Tim 3:15

That statement never said that a book can replace the living CHrist the CC the Pillar and foundation of all truth.

 

[rinnie]

Yup through the written word… ALL of the written word. No ignoring the Real Presence, the Authority and how that authority can bind and loose on earth and it will be bound or loosed in heaven. Confession to a priest, the faith AND works, Mary or the proper interpretation of those who actually put those documents he’s talking about together.

I wonder what Jesus means by binding and loosing? If for some very good and pious reason the Pope suddenly decreed that part of our salvation was to drink holy water on the fist friday of every month and wear yellow hats,(binding) and it was passed as part of doctrine, guess what? Heaven would bind it. What if the Pope suddenly decreed that we no longer have to be abstinent before marriage,(loosing) then Heaven would also loose that requirement.

Now please understand that these are off the top of my head situations. The Holy Spirit guides the Pope in faith and morals, therefore my fake situations would not be passed… thank God!!

So much cherry picking of scripture done by those who believe that those words are their sole means of salvation. If scripture was MY only means toward salvation, I’d be studying it and using it fully (then I’d discover that Jesus actually started a physical Church and that Church is still here as promised)

Lobo read what Shawn said he said salvation can be obtained through a book.

 

[rinnie]

[SIGN][/SIGN]

Four points:

1. It’s a fine line between veneration, adoration, reverence, worshp, and idolotry. The words can be used interchangebly. The difference is a matter of degree which is subjective. A look at their definitions shows that they chain together in their meanings.

Christ does not dwell in man-made things.

1. Some of the early churches were not wrong in all their teachings. Some Judaizers preached Christ, but also observed Jewish Laws. Were they completely wrong, no!

JW and Mormon’s oppose abortion too. Should we follow their beliefs too?

1. I never said I disagreed with all the teachings of the CC.
2. [SIGN]As the paragraph states, salvation can be found through the book (book of the holy gospels).

[/SIGN]

See, but as I stated thats what Shawn states not the RCC.

 

[Loboto-Me]

Salvation is only found through Jesus, but many of the instruction are in the book. The point I’m trying to make is that nothing in the CC goes against that book, because the CC has interpreted it properly all along, it was the job of the CC to protect it from false interpretations. Another point is that that very book that they say can save them also has teachings in it that they ignore completely, therefore that book(its instructions) cannot save them until they follow it the way it should be followed.

 

[rinnie]

Do you know that the concept that Jesus used with all of His disciples of loosing and binding was taught by all the Jewish leaders, the Sadducees, Pharisees, Scribes and chief priests? If you keep the law you are loosed from your sins and if you do not keep the law, then you are bound in your sins? Would heaven be in agreement with that? Yes.

What did these religious rulers have to say about Jesus, who they recognized as a teacher of the law, but not as God? look below and see what they said and what they called Him.

"Why does this man speak that way? He is blaspheming; who can forgive sins but God alone?"-----Mark 2:7

***The scribes and the Pharisees began to reason, saying, “Who is this {man} who speaks blasphemies? ***Who can forgive sins, but God alone?” ------Luke 5:21

The concept Jesus taught His or we should say reiterated to His disciples, including the apostles, is the very same and applies to all true followers of Jesus Christ even till now.

***“I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven.” ***—Matthew 16:19 (to the apostles)

---

"Truly I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven.*** ------- Matthew 18:18 (to the apostles and the disciples who were following Him - for this is a sermon; notice the similar teachings in the Sermon on the mount and the fact that there is a child there, so this is not just the apostles there, but His followers)

So if the self righteous religious leaders taught this and called Jesus a blasphemer when He said “your sins are forgiven” because they did not know or belief He was God; did they not realize what all Christians realize; it is not the messenger forgiving the sin, but the rejection of the one who sent the message of salvation, God which forgives? The answer is YES. Therefore when you make the claim that Peter and the apostles had the ability to actually and really forgive sins you are blaspheming the Lord of Hosts. Also true with anyone else who claims or is appointed to “forgive” sins, they are blasphemers. If the Pope had that ability, then why would He allow any Roman Catholic to perish? Because He has no power to forgive sins; Good alone has that power.

Why is earth and heaven mentioned in the context of agreement? Because whoever accepts the message of the gospel of Jesus Christ they are loosed and heaven agrees, since the message and the author are one and from heaven and the opposite is true.

You will not be able to handle the truth I just showed you as it is written.

As for your last statement we can all assume that you have read the Bible from cover to cover and studied it in great detail to drawl your inaccurate conclusion…right?

If you had done such a thing, which I recommend, then you would have read this verse

***For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us. 19 For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God. *** 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. — Romans 8:1-21

Who are the son of God that are not yet revealed? The saints and who are the saints collectively? The church? Has the church of Jesus which He said “I will build” (still in progress) been revealed? No, so where is the promise you claim of the physical and visible church you claim is the Roman Catholic Church found in Scripture? It is not. What is visible is all the local churches and assembling of people which are both tares and wheat, but which are the tares and which are the wheat? Only God knows and the He allows obedient and mature Christian to be blessed to know with assurance as the Scripture teaches.

So you see that Scripture teaches both a visible church and a true church yet to be revealed. If you did not have such contempt for the Scripture and for God, then you might know these things from reading and studying the Scripture.

Um Beth How could a Pope let any Roman Catholic perish? The Pope has no control over a Roman Catholic. God does not even control us for goodness sakes. The Pope hasp the authority given to him by Christ to forgive sins in his name.

But we must repent and confess our sins. The Pope has not control over that. That is up to us not the Pope. I do not understand what you are saying.

And the RCC is visible. Jesus said you are Peter and upon this rock I will Build MY CHURCH. When did the RCC become hidden? It has been here from the time of Christ.

Here is the scripture you asked or.

1Tim 3;5 But If I should be delayed you should know to behave in the household of God. which is the Church of the Living God the Pillar and foundation of Truth. I am sorry how could you possibly deny this scripture?

And I am also sorry that you deny the words of Christ. Do you not believe that Jesus had the power to forgive sins? IF you do agree that he has this power how can you deny this power that he gave to the APostles then to use in his name? I do not understand? You either believe Jesus or you don;t.

I am sorry that you cannot see that the Living Church of Christ has yet to be revealed. Its been here like for over 2000 years.