Sola Scriptura Revisited

[rinnie]

Salvation is only found through Jesus, but many of the instruction are in the book. The point I’m trying to make is that nothing in the CC goes against that book, because the CC has interpreted it properly all along, it was the job of the CC to protect it from false interpretations. Another point is that that very book that they say can save them also has teachings in it that they ignore completely, therefore that book(its instructions) cannot save them until they follow it the way it should be followed.

I agree! My point is he is trying to say that the RCC teaches that you can be saved through a book, That is what he stated. He is trying to make the Church say something it does not say.

 

[Loboto-Me]

Do you know that the concept that Jesus used with all of His disciples of loosing and binding was taught by all the Jewish leaders, the Sadducees, Pharisees, Scribes and chief priests? If you keep the law you are loosed from your sins and if you do not keep the law, then you are bound in your sins? Would heaven be in agreement with that? Yes.

What did these religious rulers have to say about Jesus, who they recognized as a teacher of the law, but not as God? look below and see what they said and what they called Him.

"Why does this man speak that way? He is blaspheming; who can forgive sins but God alone?"-----Mark 2:7

***The scribes and the Pharisees began to reason, saying, “Who is this {man} who speaks blasphemies? ***Who can forgive sins, but God alone?” ------Luke 5:21

The concept Jesus taught His or we should say reiterated to His disciples, including the apostles, is the very same and applies to all true followers of Jesus Christ even till now.

***“I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven.” ***—Matthew 16:19 (to the apostles)

"Truly I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven. ------- Matthew 18:18 (to the apostles and the disciples who were following Him - for this is a sermon; notice the similar teachings in the Sermon on the mount and the fact that there is a child there, so this is not just the apostles there, but His followers)

So if the self righteous religious leaders taught this and called Jesus a blasphemer when He said “your sins are forgiven” because they did not know or belief He was God; did they not realize what all Christians realize; it is not the messenger forgiving the sin, but the rejection of the one who sent the message of salvation, God which forgives? The answer is YES. Therefore when you make the claim that Peter and the apostles had the ability to actually and really forgive sins you are blaspheming the Lord of Hosts. Also true with anyone else who claims or is appointed to “forgive” sins, they are blasphemers. If the Pope had that ability, then why would He allow any Roman Catholic to perish? Because He has no power to forgive sins; Good alone has that power.

Why is earth and heaven mentioned in the context of agreement? Because whoever accepts the message of the gospel of Jesus Christ they are loosed and heaven agrees, since the message and the author are one and from heaven and the opposite is true.

You will not be able to handle the truth I just showed you as it is written.

As for your last statement we can all assume that you have read the Bible from cover to cover and studied it in great detail to drawl your inaccurate conclusion…right?

If you had done such a thing, which I recommend, then you would have read this verse

***For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us. 19 For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God. ***20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. — Romans 8:1-21

Who are the son of God that are not yet revealed? The saints and who are the saints collectively? The church? Has the church of Jesus which He said “I will build” (still in progress) been revealed? No, so where is the promise you claim of the physical and visible church you claim is the Roman Catholic Church found in Scripture? It is not. What is visible is all the local churches and assembling of people which are both tares and wheat, but which are the tares and which are the wheat? Only God knows and the He allows obedient and mature Christian to be blessed to know with assurance as the Scripture teaches.

So you see that Scripture teaches both a visible church and a true church yet to be revealed. If you did not have such contempt for the Scripture and for God, then you might know these things from reading and studying the Scripture.

Obviously you don’t know how the priesthood works. When a priest forgives sins he is in Persona Christi. It is not the priest forgiving sin, it’s Jesus/God Himself. I suggest that you read up on the role of the priest in the Catholic Church, then you’ll see how it works.

I also see that you don’t know the workings of the Church… another example of not following all the teachings of the book “that can save you”.

 

[Loboto-Me]

I agree! My point is he is trying to say that the RCC teaches that you can be saved through a book, That is what he stated. He is trying to make the Church say something it does not say.

I was hoping to make him realize that he’s wrong… because book and Tradition and Church are the full instructions given by Jesus, but it’s obviously not sinking in. I guess I’m looking at this situation in too much of a Catholic slant, I just don’t get how someone can possibly not follow the whole of scripture if THAT’s what’s going to save them! I’m having a hard time with stepping back and understanding their reasoning.

A book will NOT save you. The instructions are in there, but the way to read them eludes without the proper “Index” (Church)

 

[rinnie]

I was hoping to make him realize that he’s wrong… because book and Tradition and Church are the full instructions given by Jesus, but it’s obviously not sinking in. I guess I’m looking at this situation in too much of a Catholic slant, I just don’t get how someone can possibly not follow the whole of scripture if THAT’s what’s going to save them! I’m having a hard time with stepping back and understanding their reasoning.

A book will NOT save you. The instructions are in there, but the way to read them eludes without the proper “Index” (Church)

IT is sad isn’t it. Maybe this can help them, and they can read the CCC which is quite clear before they speak for our faith.

CCC 737 The mission of Christ and the Holy Spirit is brought to COMPLETION in the CHURCH which IS the Body of CHrist and the Temple of the Holy Spirit!!

Hopefully they can learn it is through the sacrament of the Church Christ communicates his Holy And sanctifying Spirit to the members of his body. Not by a book.

 

[simspt]

For what it is worth… after reading through this thread, and I know that jumping into a conversation always poses significant risks of not having followed it adequately… but I do not believe that an accurate presentation of Sola Scriptura is being presented here. At least, not in the assertions made in the original post or any of the subsequent replies and counter-replies.

Please clarify so we are on the same page.

 

[FantomScholar]

Please clarify so we are on the same page.

The original poster seemed to indicate that the Council of Constantinople is affirming Sola Scriptura by stating that through the gospels, we can be given salvation. While the statement that we are given faith and salvation through the preaching of God’s word is certainly true, it doesn’t have a direct bearing on the practice of Sola Scriptura. So arguing against a statement that doesn’t demonstrate Sola Scriptura, is not arguing against Sola Scriptura.

 

[Texasgringo70]

And look where it’s landed non-Catholics. They can’t figure out heads or tails of their own salvation. One sect believes their saved by a one time prayer, another believes in sacraments, yet another thinks that dancing with snakes is a sign of their faith.

I wasn’t trying to bash you of the Church. I am sorry if I cam across that way. I was actually disagreeing with Shawn38, not you. He seemed to focus on salvation coming only from the scriptures. Based on your comments in the thread I think we are in agreement with the point that salvation comes from God through Jesus Christ. The Bible contains the words of our Lord, but the power to save resides in the Godhead.

John 6:68 Simon Peter answered him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life.

As far as the confusion amongst different denominations I too agree that unbridled interpretation of the scriptures can lead to false teaching. Blindly following anything can set you up to being deceived. I hope we can agree that the Bible is an objective standard we can use to evaluate any church or any teaching, and that studying it can keep us on the right path. Most protestants do not reject the need for correct interpretation of the scriptures, but the idea that only a priest can correctly interpret the scriptures.

I think that if you take a careful look at many of the main stream protestant churches you will find most of them are in agreement regarding the path of salvation. There are many methods of expression, but not very many denominations disagree about the fundamentals of the nature of God and God’s salvation. I can define that point further if you like, but I’ll leave it like that for now so as to not detract from the main subject.

I will admit that my understanding of the teachings of the Catholic Church are not that great, so if I don’t get something right let me know. I want to learn more about it. I am not out to change anybody’s mind. I think we have so much more in common than we disagree on. My main purpose here is to broaden my understanding and help others do the same by sharing my perspective from time to time.

 

[Beth_Martin]

Um Beth How could a Pope let any Roman Catholic perish? The Pope has no control over a Roman Catholic. God does not even control us for goodness sakes. The Pope hasp the authority given to him by Christ to forgive sins in his name.

But we must repent and confess our sins. The Pope has not control over that. That is up to us not the Pope. I do not understand what you are saying.

And the RCC is visible. Jesus said you are Peter and upon this rock I will Build MY CHURCH. When did the RCC become hidden? It has been here from the time of Christ.

Here is the scripture you asked or.

1Tim 3;5 But If I should be delayed you should know to behave in the household of God. which is the Church of the Living God the Pillar and foundation of Truth. I am sorry how could you possibly deny this scripture?

And I am also sorry that you deny the words of Christ. Do you not believe that Jesus had the power to forgive sins? IF you do agree that he has this power how can you deny this power that he gave to the APostles then to use in his name? I do not understand? You either believe Jesus or you don;t.

I am sorry that you cannot see that the Living Church of Christ has yet to be revealed. Its been here like for over 2000 years.

First, my point is that no man has the ability to forgive any sin against God; even the most devout Jews knew that and they were along a lot longer than your church, but they understood.

Second, since your church has given itself the authority to have a priest hear a confession and forgive sins against God through some type of pennance, then refer to point 1.

1 Tim 3:15; who makes up the household of God? Is it not the collective body of all the individual saints with each having a spiritual gift(s) that we are commanded to exercise? Is the church the household of God? Yes. Is that collective body of all the saints the Roman Catholic Church? NO. Are some of those in the Roman Catholic Church part of the collective body of saints that make up the household of God? Yes Is it the entire colective body that is the pillar and support of the truth, which is Gods Holy Word? Yes

Do you see that you miss the entire point of 1 Tim 3:15? I hope so for your sake. The power and the authority is with the message, not with the messenger. The message is “repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand, which is through the Person of Jesus”, which is why one who rejects the message rejects the One who the message is about and from, which is Jesus. Now do you get it?

The misinterpretation and unbelievable stretch of John 20 that your church uses as its authority is sad in my opinion because it gives authority to others that belongs to God and leaves a person with the notion their sins are forgiven when they are not because no man, not even the apostles had the ability to forgive sins. Notice Jesus siad receive the Holy Spirit, which they did a few days later on Pentecost and at that point they were giving the gospel message of their salvation. What would happen if you were to share the gospel of repentance to your neighbor and they rejected it, could you say to your neighbor that your sins are not forgiven because you have rejected the only way in which one can be forgiven? The answer to that question is yes. So where is your authority? It comes from heaven via the message of the Messenger. This is why it pertains to all true Christians and why all Christians are commanded to share the gospel, which most do not unfortunately. But Jesus said the harvest is great, but the workers are few.

Perhaps if you did actually read and the study the entire Bible in great detail, then you could easily undestand these truths contained in Scripture. I believe you should keep in line with your faith and your leader, which you said the Pope has no authority over Catholics, which I found rather strange since I do not kno wmnay devout Catholics who would agree with that statement.

I love the step by step listed here. Perhaps you can use it as the logic and the reasoning is flawed.

Personally to me it doesn’t matter because I know that God has a church to be revealed which will contain Catholics and Protestants alike; I just hope you are among those that will be there as I feel the same about everyone associated with some form of Christianity. I wish Jesus had said there were many who enter the narrow gate and not few, but the reality is that i believe Jesus and what He has said and that he meant it.

 

[Beth_Martin]

Obviously you don’t know how the priesthood works. When a priest forgives sins he is in Persona Christi. It is not the priest forgiving sin, it’s Jesus/God Himself. I suggest that you read up on the role of the priest in the Catholic Church, then you’ll see how it works.

I also see that you don’t know the workings of the Church… another example of not following all the teachings of the book “that can save you”.

I am very familiar with the “persona Christi’” title and its claims.

Just as in Baptism an “exchange of clothing” is given, an exchanged destination, a new existential communion with Christ, so also in priesthood there is an exchange: in the administration of the sacraments, the priest now acts and speaks "in persona Christi’. In the sacred mysteries, he does not represent himself and does not speak expressing himself, but speaks for the Other, for Christ.

Source: Taken from:
L’Osservatore Romano
Weekly Edition in English
13 April 2007, page 2

Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. 5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness, ----Romans 4

It is God alone who can justify the ungodly; forgive sins - no one acting on behalf of God can justify the ungodly can they? No!!

The apostle Paul understood exactly who forgave sins; is the apostle wrong?
**"Therefore let it be known to you, brethren, that through Him forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you, and through Him everyone who believes is freed from all things, from which you could not be freed through the Law of Moses. ** ------ Acts 2:38

***"I, even I, am the one who wipes out your transgressions *for My own sake, And I will not remember your sins.-- **Isaiah 43:25

Isaiah understood that and all the rest understood that and no one pretended to be “Christ in person”, but God did tell us this would the claim of many.

Here is a great explanation of “both” priesthoods you faith contains. [HERE](http://parishbulletin.com/Organizations/8190/Documents/(name removed by moderator)ersonaChristie.pdf) The priesthood of believers is the only one that remains in Scripture, this second priesthood as ordained by your church was never taught in Scripture and all earthly priesthood, except the royal priesthood of believers was done away with at the commencment of the New Covenant as Hebrews teaches through the Holy Spirit. So again if you actually were to read and study the entire Bible from cover to cover you may see things in a different light, but praise be to god for the salvation of both Catholics and Protestants, albeit few and not many as Scripture teaches.

 

[Marc_Anthony]

I am very familiar with the “persona Christi’” title and its claims.

Just as in Baptism an “exchange of clothing” is given, an exchanged destination, a new existential communion with Christ, so also in priesthood there is an exchange: in the administration of the sacraments, the priest now acts and speaks "in persona Christi’. In the sacred mysteries, he does not represent himself and does not speak expressing himself, but speaks for the Other, for Christ.

Source: Taken from:
L’Osservatore Romano
Weekly Edition in English
13 April 2007, page 2

Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. 5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness, ----Romans 4

It is God alone who can justify the ungodly; forgive sins - no one acting on behalf of God can justify the ungodly can they? No!!

Of course not. But what if God is acting through the Priests, as Catholics believe? It’s not a Priest representing Christ, it is Christ working through a Priest.

 

[Loboto-Me]

You recite bits and pieces of scripture yet you ignore the very scripture that gave authority to priest through apostolic succession for our priests to act Persona Christi.

What about John ?

21 He said therefore to them again: Peace be to you. As the Father hath sent me, I also send you. 22 When he had said this, he breathed on them; and he said to them: Receive ye the Holy Ghost. 23 Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained.

2 Corinthians

17 If then any be in Christ a new creature, the old things are passed away, behold all things are made new. 18 But all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Christ; and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation.

James 5

14 Is any man sick among you? Let him bring in the priests of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord. 15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick man: and the Lord shall raise him up: **and if he be in sins, they shall be forgiven him. **

Now tell me that Christ didn’t authorise the Church of our apostles to forgive sins in Persona Christi. He breathed on them so that they could continue His ministry on earth. Through the laying of the hands, from apostle to disciple to bishop to priesthood. Our priesthood is authorised by Christ Himself to do what it does.

Our priests DO NOT justify, it is Christ who justifies, we never claimed our priests ever justified. You are the one who seems to have Persona Christi confused and therefore maybe you are having a hard time understanding how it works.

Also, please don’t say that our priests are pretending because what you are saying in that instance that Jesus’ word is not to be trusted. His breath was only “hot air”. You claim to know your bible yet you ignore and cherry pick your beliefs from that bible.

 

[rinnie]

[SIGN][/SIGN]

[SIGN][SIGN]First, my point is that no man has the ability to forgive any sin against God; even [/SIGN][/SIGN]the most devout Jews knew that and they were along a lot longer than your church, but they understood.

Second, since your church has given itself the authority to have a priest hear a confession and forgive sins against God through some type of pennance, then refer to point 1.

1 Tim 3:15; who makes up the household of God? Is it not the collective body of all the individual saints with each having a spiritual gift(s) that we are commanded to exercise? Is the church the household of God? Yes. Is that collective body of all the saints the Roman Catholic Church? NO. Are some of those in the Roman Catholic Church part of the collective body of saints that make up the household of God? Yes Is it the entire colective body that is the pillar and support of the truth, which is Gods Holy Word? Yes

Do you see that you miss the entire point of 1 Tim 3:15? I hope so for your sake. The power and the authority is with the message, not with the messenger. The message is “repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand, which is through the Person of Jesus”, which is why one who rejects the message rejects the One who the message is about and from, which is Jesus. Now do you get it?

The misinterpretation and unbelievable stretch of John 20 that your church uses as its authority is sad in my opinion because it gives authority to others that belongs to God and leaves a person with the notion their sins are forgiven when they are not because no man, not even the apostles had the ability to forgive sins. Notice Jesus siad receive the Holy Spirit, which they did a few days later on Pentecost and at that point they were giving the gospel message of their salvation. What would happen if you were to share the gospel of repentance to your neighbor and they rejected it, could you say to your neighbor that your sins are not forgiven because you have rejected the only way in which one can be forgiven? The answer to that question is yes. So where is your authority? It comes from heaven via the message of the Messenger. This is why it pertains to all true Christians and why all Christians are commanded to share the gospel, which most do not unfortunately. But Jesus said the harvest is great, but the workers are few.

Perhaps if you did actually read and the study the entire Bible in great detail, then you could easily undestand these truths contained in Scripture. I believe you should keep in line with your faith and your leader, which you said the Pope has no authority over Catholics, which I found rather strange since I do not kno wmnay devout Catholics who would agree with that statement.

I love the step by step listed here. Perhaps you can use it as the logic and the reasoning is flawed.

Personally to me it doesn’t matter because I know that God has a church to be revealed which will contain Catholics and Protestants alike; I just hope you are among those that will be there as I feel the same about everyone associated with some form of Christianity. I wish Jesus had said there were many who enter the narrow gate and not few, but the reality is that i believe Jesus and what He has said and that he meant it.

Lets start here. Okay then you are saying that you deny Jesus Christ a truly Man then right?

How do you ignore this scripture.

Matt 9:6 But that you may know the Son of Man has Authority to forgive sin he then said to the Paralytic Rise;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;

WHen the crowds saw this they were struck with awe and glorified God who had given such AUTHORITY TO HUMAN BEINGS!!!

Now do you deny just Jesus as a Human being or the Apostles and Priests also or what

 

[shawn38]

So you are saying Protestants do venerate relics, they just don’t “over do” it like the Catholics (and Orthodox)?

Some may just as some Catholics probably don’t. Just because someone’s Catholic doesn’t mean that the adhere to all the doctrines of the Catholic Church. .

 

[shawn38]

I wonder what Jesus means by binding and loosing? If for some very good and pious reason the Pope suddenly decreed that part of our salvation was to drink holy water on the fist friday of every month and wear yellow hats,(binding) and it was passed as part of doctrine, guess what? Heaven would bind it. What if the Pope suddenly decreed that we no longer have to be abstinent before marriage,(loosing) then Heaven would also loose that requirement.

If that’s your mindset, would you be willing to worship the beast of Rev 13 if decreed by the Pope? I would hope not.

if the Pope suddenly decreed that we no longer have to be abstinent before marriage,(loosing) then Heaven would also loose that requirement.

If heaven had to loose that requirement, then God would be made a lier. That’s fornication.

Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are fornication, uncleanness, immodesty, luxury, …Envies, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like. Of the which I foretell you, as I have foretold to you, that they who do such things shall not obtain the kingdom of God.

 

[Loboto-Me]

Did you not read the sentence that said that the Church would never make rules like that? Remember, the Holy Spirit guides the Church (Jesus said so and he’s no liar)

Do you really think that the Pope would decree worshipping the beast for a very good and pious reason??? Come on now!

 

[shawn38]

Again no it does not. It does not state that Salvation is found in the bible. It states that Salvation can be obtained by the WORDS of Jesus Christ not by a book. You continue to try to make that say something it does not say. Please read it again. Then please read that book. In that book you will find that

There are many things that are necessary for salvation.

John 3:5 No one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit. (That cannot be obtained through a book, I am sorry it must be done through the church

Mark 16:16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved. A bool cannot baptise you, I am sorry you are wrong.

THe bible is not the pillar and foundation of all truth the Church is.

Please go and read it. 1 Tim 3:15

That statement never said that a book can replace the living CHrist the CC the Pillar and foundation of all truth.

Rinnie,

You know it’s belief in the message (1 Cor 15 and Rom 10) within the book that saves!

I know you believe that salvation is only found within the RCC. So do others:

Pope Eugene IV, Cantate Domino
The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes, and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before death they are joined with Her… no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church

Pope Bonidace VIII, Unam Sanctam
We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff

Vatican II backed off on this position.

 

[shawn38]

Did you not read the sentence that said that the Church would never make rules like that? Remember, the Holy Spirit guides the Church (Jesus said so and he’s no liar)

Do you really think that the Pope would decree worshipping the beast for a very good and pious reason??? Come on now!

If the Pope would authorize fornication, why not. It’s just as rediculous, but that was the example given by Loboto.

 

[Beth_Martin]

Of course not. But what if God is acting through the Priests, as Catholics believe? It’s not a Priest representing Christ, it is Christ working through a Priest.

For there is one God, {and} one mediator also between God and men, {the} man Christ Jesus, — 1 Tim. 2:5

But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, by as much as He is also the mediator of a better covenant, which has been enacted on better promises. ------ Hebrews 8:6

No more need for a common man to intercede, we are living under the New Covenant, not the old where daily sacrafices by men via the Levitical priesthood were conducted.

Study the section on Melchezidek in the book of Hebrews and see why God said Jesus priesthood was like his and not like that of men (Levitical). Your church claims to be after that of Melchezidek, but one od a few problems that your priesthood has that the Levitical priesthood had, that separates it from Melchezidek and Jesus, the priests keep dying a physical death. Another problem and difference, Jesus made on sacrafice for all and SAT DOWN, whereas the Levitical priest and the Catholic priests stand daily ministering sacrafices, which you would call the Mass. See for your self; it is all there in the Scripture and is not hidden.

Again, regardless there will be both Catholics and Protestants in heaven and when we see Him we will be like Him. That is the joy i see in all of this!!

 

[Beth_Martin]

[SIGN][/SIGN]

Lets start here. Okay then you are saying that you deny Jesus Christ a truly Man then right?

How do you ignore this scripture.

Matt 9:6 But that **you may know the Son of Man has Authority to forgive sin **he then said to the Paralytic Rise;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;

WHen the crowds saw this they were struck with awe and glorified God who had given such AUTHORITY TO HUMAN BEINGS!!!

Now do you deny just Jesus as a Human being or the Apostles and Priests also or what

No it is you denying that Jesus is God by mocking Him like the Scribes did in verse 3 and ridiculing the Word of God and what it says. Never talk to me again; I will not respond to any of your posts.
May God show mercy toward you!!
Beth

 

[Beth_Martin]

Of course not. But what if God is acting through the Priests, as Catholics believe? It’s not a Priest representing Christ, it is Christ working through a Priest.

In the blue above, you better look more closley as to what the claim of the priesthood and the ordination and powers given through the Holy Orders Sacrament. That statement is not correct in “blue” above.

“For there is one God, {and} one mediator also between God and men, {the} man Christ Jesus,”---- 1 Tim 2:5

Does God lie? Are His Scriptures full of half truths and lies? Does the Scripture above contradict Catholic teaching? Yes it does in my opinion as I compare the two.

I would say the beginning of birth pangs began when the priesthood and the confessional began as the Scripture speaks concerning thoses acting in His persona.