Sola Scriptura Revisited

[Marc_Anthony]

I’m sorry, but what are you talking about? The Priest is not the mediator. He is the instrument Christ uses to work, the “channel” if you will.

You’re also completely ignoring, “Whatever you bind on Earth will be bound in Heaven, and whatever you loose on Earth will be loosed in Heaven.” And in Acts of the Apostles, the Apostles perform miracles in Jesus’s name ALL THE TIME. Does that mean that what they’re doing is unscriptural? Impossible, since it’s in Scripture.

 

[Beth_Martin]

You recite bits and pieces of scripture yet you ignore the very scripture that gave authority to priest through apostolic succession for our priests to act Persona Christi.

What about John ?

21 He said therefore to them again: Peace be to you. As the Father hath sent me, I also send you. 22 When he had said this, he breathed on them; and he said to them: Receive ye the Holy Ghost. 23 Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained.

2 Corinthians

17 If then any be in Christ a new creature, the old things are passed away, behold all things are made new. 18 But all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Christ; and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation.

James 5

14 Is any man sick among you? Let him bring in the priests of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord. 15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick man: and the Lord shall raise him up: **and if he be in sins, they shall be forgiven him. **

Now tell me that Christ didn’t authorize the Church of our apostles to forgive sins in Persona Christi. He breathed on them so that they could continue His ministry on earth. Through the laying of the hands, from apostle to disciple to bishop to priesthood. Our priesthood is authorized by Christ Himself to do what it does.

Our priests DO NOT justify, it is Christ who justifies, we never claimed our priests ever justified. You are the one who seems to have Persona Christi confused and therefore maybe you are having a hard time understanding how it works.

Also, please don’t say that our priests are pretending because what you are saying in that instance that Jesus’ word is not to be trusted. His breath was only “hot air”. You claim to know your bible yet you ignore and cherry pick your beliefs from that bible.

I just wrote an entire post and for some unknown reason the next thing I know Iam on a subscription about Arizona and its dispute with California???

Anyway, I’m not rewriting the whole thing, I addressed the John 20 earlier using your own “Objections and Responses”, which were not logical, rational or Biblical and I did post the link. It is you all that must cherry pick, that is how one reconciles contradictions to their own teachings. We just use the Word of God and therefore we need not cherry pick for we use the only source of Biblical truth to start with.

You left out much in 2 Cor 5, the ministry of reconciliation is the gospel of repentance and the ambassadors are all Christians and the same word is used on one other time in the form and context in Ephesians 6:20 and again it is the proclamation of the gospel.

Justification comes from what? The forgiveness of sins, so you said it right your priests have no ability to justify or forgive sins just as the Scripture teaches, God alone can forgive sins.

Persona Christi is found in Matthew 24, the true priesthood is spoken of in Hebrews and Melkezidek is an everlasting priesthood, different from the Levitical because in the Levitical the human priests kept dying, just as your priests do and another difference is that Jesus made on sacrifice and sat down whereas the Levitical kept ministering daily the sacrifices just as your priests do; Jesus made the one perfect one and sat down next to the Father because no more sacrifices were needed, not even reenactments.

James 5 is not a physical healing, but a spiritual healing which comes from who? God
Scripture alone is where the God has spoken to men about salvation and how to live our lives as Christians and albeit only a few will ever enter, there will be both Catholics and Protestants who will come by faith alone in Christ alone by His mercy, His Grace and his choice as the Scripture teaches.

 

[Loboto-Me]

Beth Martin in regular script
Loboto-Me in bold blue

Anyway, I’m not rewriting the whole thing, I addressed the John 20 earlier using your own “Objections and Responses”, which were not logical, rational or Biblical and I did post the link.

I looked at the posts and I fail to see where you responded to John 20. It’s probably there somewhere, but I just can’t find it, so if you don’t mind reposting it, I’ll see where you went wrong.
And as for logical and rational or biblical… LOL! I’ve got to take that one with a grain of salt considering what you’ve been writting lol!

It is you all that must cherry pick, that is how one reconciles contradictions to their own teachings. We just use the Word of God and therefore we need not cherry pick for we use the only source of Biblical truth to start with

You left out much in 2 Cor 5, the ministry of reconciliation is the gospel of repentance and the ambassadors are all Christians and the same word is used on one other time in the form and context in Ephesians 6:20 and again it is the proclamation of the gospel.

Cor2, you mean I left out "19 For God indeed was in Christ, reconciling the world to himself, not imputing to them their sins; and he hath placed in us the word of reconciliation. 20 For Christ therefore we are ambassadors, God as it were exhorting by us. For Christ, we beseech you, be reconciled to God"

Let’s examine this a bit… first we must see know what a ministry is
min·is·try
n. pl. min·is·tries **1. ****a. **The act of serving; ministration.
**b. **One that serves as a means; an instrumentality.

**2. ****a. **The profession, duties, and services of a minister.
**b. **The Christian clergy.
**c. **The period of service of a minister.

**3. ****a. **A governmental department presided over by a minister.
**b. **The building in which such a department is housed.
**c. **The duties, functions, or term of a governmental minister.
**d. **often Ministry Governmental ministers considered as a group

Now considering I added to the Cor which mentions that they (Paul and the “ministry”) are Ambassadors, let’s define that word

am·bas·sa·dor n. **1. **A diplomatic official of the highest rank appointed and accredited as representative in residence by one government or sovereign to another, usually for a specific length of time.
**2. **A diplomatic official heading his or her country’s permanent mission to certain international organizations, such as the United Nations.
**3. **An authorized messenger or representative.
**4. **An unofficial representative: ambassadors of goodwill.

Commonsense tells us that the ambassadors are official since they have a ministry… although they are also ambassadors of goodwill (Official ones)

**Also, remember, that Jesus gave AUTHORITY to Peter and BREATHED on the apostles and told them of their official Ministry some times before this letter. **

 

[Loboto-Me]

Justification comes from what? The forgiveness of sins, so you said it right your priests have no ability to justify or forgive sins just as the Scripture teaches, God alone can forgive sins.

I wholeheartedly agree that forgiveness comes from Jesus (God), but then you’ve decided to ignore all of the authority and ministy and ambassadorship that Jesus had the authority to give to the Apostles. What did Jesus tell them to do? Go forth and forgive sins, and baptise and spread the word. You see my friend, the CC has carried on the ministry, and if you read where our Popes come from, you’ll also see that our first Pope was Peter himself . Through the ages, into the 3rd millenium now, we have apostolic authority.

So, in Persona Christi (A term you don’t seem to understand yet) our priests have been forgiving sins through Jesus himself and with Jesus’ wholehearted approval too … sorry, I know you don’t like hearing this truth.

Persona Christi is found in Matthew 24, the true priesthood is spoken of in Hebrews and Melkezidek is an everlasting priesthood, different from the Levitical because in the Levitical the human priests kept dying, just as your priests do and another difference is that Jesus made on sacrifice and sat down whereas the Levitical kept ministering daily the sacrifices just as your priests do; Jesus made the one perfect one and sat down next to the Father because no more sacrifices were needed, not even reenactments.

**Matt 24: **
**False messiahs and false prophets will arise, and they will perform signs and wonders so great as to deceive, if that were possible, even the elect. **

How disingenuous to compare Persona Christi to this line in scripture! You have just insulted Jesus Himself with this! You have no better retort than this?? You need to insult Jesus and call Him a liar because you can’t think of anything better to defend yourself with?

**Instead of insulting the term of Persona Christi, perhaps you should read your bible and you could have found an actual event where it’s used and MENTIONED. **

2 Cor:
**6 To him who is such a one, this rebuke is sufficient, which is given by many: 7 So that on the contrary, you should rather forgive him and comfort him, lest perhaps such a one be swallowed up with overmuch sorrow. 8 Wherefore, I beseech you, that you would confirm your charity towards him. 9 For to this end also did I write, that I may know the experiment of you, whether you be obedient in all things. 10 And to whom you have pardoned any thing, I also. For, what I have pardoned, if I have pardoned any thing, for your sakes have I done it in the person of Christ. **

**Wow, our priests do exactly like Paul does and in the same person too! Perhaps you should retract your rude statement about Jesus and Persona Christi which means “In The Person of Christ”. **

**Our priests keep dying but obviously you’re in the dark about how priesthood works. Laying on of the hands by Bishops create priests. But I’ve explained how we inherited our clergy… from Jesus Himself. **

James 5 is not a physical healing, but a spiritual healing which comes from who? God

Through who? His priests?? You mean that whole paragraph of scripture, of directions could have just been crumpled up and tossed in the trash? Why would James even bother to say to BRING IN THE PRIEST? Why would he even bother to instruct the PRIEST on what has to be done? Through who would God work? Did you know that our priests also annoint the sick? Who do really think God works through? By the way, what does it matter what kind of healing it is? They are instructions to people to bring a priest, what does it matter why?

Scripture alone is where the God has spoken to men about salvation and how to live our lives as Christians and albeit only a few will ever enter, there will be both Catholics and Protestants who will come by faith alone in Christ alone by His mercy, His Grace and his choice as the Scripture teaches.

I** have to pity those poor poor souls that lived without scripture for 400 yrs before the Catholic Church put all the documents together. I mean, Jesus was the new covenant, so there were new “rules” to follow and oh goodness, nobody had scripture for 400 yrs!! These poor people didn’t know how to live out their lives as Christians for all this time because they didn’t have scripture. **

It’s a good thing the Catholic Church came to save the day and put all that scripture together eh? The Catholic Church to the rescue!

By the way, this topic is on Sola Scriptura and we’ve already showed you through our responses how very wrong it is.

 

[Texasgringo70]

Loboto-Me,

Easy there cowboy. If you keep that up you might just blow a gasket. I can see from your responses that there is a major disconnect between y’all. Maybe I can help. You see, us protestants have not rejected the idea of ministers and priests. We just disagree about who gets to wear that title. I think there is something there about forgiveness, but I haven’t figured out how all that works. As I said earlier, the primary function of sola scripura, is to elevate the authority of scripture above the authority of the Church. Most all protestants believe that all Christians have the responsibility to act as a priest in one extent or another. Because the Holy Spirit indwells all true Christians it is the the Holy Spirit acting though a Christian that makes that Christian a priest. If you want to attack us, let me help. I’ll tell you how we come to that belief and then you can attack that and really hut us.

Do a word search in the NT on the words saint and priest. You will see that when the apostles talked about saints they talked about people who were still alive and didn’t have any statues of themselves made yet. Basically the biblical term saint is synonymous with disciple or Christian. Church tradition has made sainthood very formal. My intent is not to attack the Church’s current definition of saint, but to accurately establish the Biblical definition. The word priest is used mostly to describe Jewish Priests. After Acts it is only used in Hebrews, to refer to Christ, and then in 1st Peter and Revelation, to refer to all Christians. Here are all the references I found after Hebrews:

1 Peter 2:5 you also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.

1 Peter 2:9 But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people belonging to God

Rev 1:6 and has made us to be a kingdom and priests to serve his God and Father—to him be glory and power for ever and ever! Amen.

Rev 5:9b with your blood you purchased men for God
from every tribe and language and people and nation.
10You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God,
and they will reign on the earth."

Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.

A priest is basically a servant of God and a servant of the people for God. If you think about that definition in terms of the Church I believe you will agree that it is correct. The question that remains is what special power is imparted by being employed by the Roman Catholic Church that is not already imparted by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit? If a lay person is moved by the Spirit of God to act in a way that can be defined as a priestly service is that act of service somehow less than the same act of service performed by an employee of the Church. Is God’s power and his ability to act though his believers somehow limited by who signs the pay check?

On flip side, does being employed by the Church make it impossible to commit sin? I seriously doubt that you will find a priest that will agree to that. I don’t know if you saw it or remember it, but in the movie Braveheart, Longshanks had a line, “The problem with Scotland is that it’s full of Scotsmen.” Well, I propose to you that the problem with the Church is that it is full of men. Protestants have the view that if being employed by the Church does not make one perfect, then it is theoretically possible that an imperfect man can say or do something that can be made into a dogma or tradition that the resulting dogma or tradition would then be imperfect.

If this can happen then the next question is what to do if it does happen? At that point then our only resources for truth are the family of believers, the word of God and the spirit of God. Of those only the word of God is objective and biased only by the scholarship of those who interpret it. All sola scripura implies is that if an employee of the Church goes against the word of God then the word of God wins. Are you suggesting that the Church has the authority to go against the word of God? I don’t think you are, but if you aren’t then what exactly are you saying?

The truth is though that even though you claim not believe in the supremacy of the word of God, in practice you have proved sola scriptura to be true. Your posts repeatedly go back to the Bible to make your points and you rely on those texts for proof of your beliefs. There is nothing wrong with that, but it does seem illogical to use the Bible to prove that you don’t believe the Bible is the final authority. Looks to me like we find ourselves in agreement again, but that we are dividing ourselves over semantics.

Both protestants and Catholics do well to remember that Luther did not want to separate from the Church. That is why it is called the protestant reformation. Luther protested to some of the practices of the Church and wished to reform it. Alas, he failed and was forced to leave, but he did not want to leave. Based on that fact I do not see you as an adversary, but a brother. Even apart from all things church you are a fellow brother of the human race and I hope that I have not offended you.

 

[VetA]

Most all protestants believe that all Christians have the responsibility to act as a priest in one extent or another. Because the Holy Spirit indwells all true Christians it is the the Holy Spirit acting though a Christian that makes that Christian a priest. If you want to attack us, let me help. I’ll tell you how we come to that belief and then you can attack that and really hut us.

indeed this is our beliefe too.we are all by our batisms are called to be a priest, prophet and king

II. THE LAY FAITHFUL

897 "The term ‘laity’ is here understood to mean all the faithful except those in Holy Orders and those who belong to a religious state approved by the Church. That is, the faithful, who by Baptism are incorporated into Christ and integrated into the People of God, are made sharers in their particular way in the priestly, prophetic, and kingly office of Christ, and have their own part to play in the mission of the whole Christian people in the Church and in the World."430

The vocation of lay people

898 "By reason of their special vocation it belongs to the laity to seek the kingdom of God by engaging in temporal affairs and directing them according to God’s will. . . . It pertains to them in a special way so to illuminate and order all temporal things with which they are closely associated that these may always be effected and grow according to Christ and maybe to the glory of the Creator and Redeemer."431

 

[VetA]

899 The initiative of lay Christians is necessary especially when the matter involves discovering or inventing the means for permeating social, political, and economic realities with the demands of Christian doctrine and life. This initiative is a normal element of the life of the Church:

Lay believers are in the front line of Church life; for them the Church is the animating principle of human society. Therefore, they in particular ought to have an ever-clearer consciousness not only of belonging to the Church, but of being the Church, that is to say, the community of the faithful on earth under the leadership of the Pope, the common Head, and of the bishops in communion with him. They are the Church.432
900 Since, like all the faithful, lay Christians are entrusted by God with the apostolate by virtue of their Baptism and Confirmation, they have the right and duty, individually or grouped in associations, to work so that the divine message of salvation may be known and accepted by all men throughout the earth. This duty is the more pressing when it is only through them that men can hear the Gospel and know Christ. Their activity in ecclesial communities is so necessary that, for the most part, the apostolate of the pastors cannot be fully effective without it.433

The participation of lay people in Christ’s priestly office

901 "Hence the laity, dedicated as they are to Christ and anointed by the Holy Spirit, are marvelously called and prepared so that even richer fruits of the Spirit maybe produced in them. For all their works, prayers, and apostolic undertakings, family and married life, daily work, relaxation of mind and body, if they are accomplished in the Spirit - indeed even the hardships of life if patiently born - all these become spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. In the celebration of the Eucharist these may most fittingly be offered to the Father along with the body of the Lord. And so, worshipping everywhere by their holy actions, the laity consecrate the world itself to God, everywhere offering worship by the holiness of their lives."434

902 In a very special way, parents share in the office of sanctifying "by leading a conjugal life in the Christian spirit and by seeing to the Christian education of their children."435

903 Lay people who possess the required qualities can be admitted permanently to the ministries of lector and acolyte.436 When the necessity of the Church warrants it and when ministers are lacking, lay persons, even if they are not lectors or acolytes, can also supply for certain of their offices, namely, to exercise the ministry of the word, to preside over liturgical prayers, to confer Baptism, and to distribute Holy Communion in accord with the prescriptions of law."437

Participation in Christ’s prophetic office

904 "Christ . . . fulfills this prophetic office, not only by the hierarchy . . . but also by the laity. He accordingly both establishes them as witnesses and provides them with the sense of the faith [sensus fidei] and the grace of the word"438

To teach in order to lead others to faith is the task of every preacher and of each believer.439
905 Lay people also fulfill their prophetic mission by evangelization, “that is, the proclamation of Christ by word and the testimony of life.” For lay people, "this evangelization . . . acquires a specific property and peculiar efficacy because it is accomplished in the ordinary circumstances of the world."440

This witness of life, however, is not the sole element in the apostolate; the true apostle is on the lookout for occasions of announcing Christ by word, either to unbelievers . . . or to the faithful.441
906 Lay people who are capable and trained may also collaborate in catechetical formation, in teaching the sacred sciences, and in use of the communications media.442

907 "In accord with the knowledge, competence, and preeminence which they possess, [lay people] have the right and even at times a duty to manifest to the sacred pastors their opinion on matters which pertain to the good of the Church, and they have a right to make their opinion known to the other Christian faithful, with due regard to the integrity of faith and morals and reverence toward their pastors, and with consideration for the common good and the dignity of persons."443

Participation in Christ’s kingly office

908 By his obedience unto death,444 Christ communicated to his disciples the gift of royal freedom, so that they might “by the self-abnegation of a holy life, overcome the reign of sin in themselves”:445

That man is rightly called a king who makes his own body an obedient subject and, by governing himself with suitable rigor, refuses to let his passions breed rebellion in his soul, for he exercises a kind of royal power over himself. And because he knows how to rule his own person as king, so too does he sit as its judge. He will not let himself be imprisoned by sin, or thrown headlong into wickedness.446

 

[VetA]

909 "Moreover, by uniting their forces let the laity so remedy the institutions and conditions of the world when the latter are an inducement to sin, that these may be conformed to the norms of justice, favoring rather than hindering the practice of virtue. By so doing they will impregnate culture and human works with a moral value."447

910 "The laity can also feel called, or be in fact called, to cooperate with their pastors in the service of the ecclesial community, for the sake of its growth and life. This can be done through the exercise of different kinds of ministries according to the grace and charisms which the Lord has been pleased to bestow on them."448

911 In the Church, "lay members of the Christian faithful can cooperate in the exercise of this power [of governance] in accord with the norm of law."449 And so the Church provides for their presence at particular councils, diocesan synods, pastoral councils; the exercise of the pastoral care of a parish, collaboration in finance committees, and participation in ecclesiastical tribunals, etc.450

912 The faithful should "distinguish carefully between the rights and the duties which they have as belonging to the Church and those which fall to them as members of the human society. They will strive to unite the two harmoniously, remembering that in every temporal affair they are to be guided by a Christian conscience, since no human activity, even of the temporal order, can be withdrawn from God’s dominion."451

913 “Thus, every person, through these gifts given to him, is at once the witness and the living instrument of the mission of the Church itself 'according to the measure of Christ’s bestowal.”'452

 

[Loboto-Me]

Hi Texas,

I admit to getting “warmed up” in sections of my “Blue Reply” but that was a build up from previous posts by Beth where she came in here being obstinate about the Catholic Tradition and finally insulting our priesthood and Jesus with a thinly veiled part of scripture. Basically at that time I was replying in the same spirit as Beth had been posting.

It seems that VetA has already replied to your post, so I’m not going to repeat reply (I think I’ve posted enough, don’t you? lol) Thank you for reminding me about losing my “niceness”. I realized that I was pretty impassioned when I re-read my post but by then I was wallowing in it and didn’t care. Funny how the “morning after” is always different As for writting posts that include scripture, that is what I do when I need to explain things to people who only believe in scripture. You must realize that Beth ignores anything by the ECF or declarations from our Church, which I completely understand on her part. Why should she? That’s not part of her belief system.

I do appologize to you Beth, I should not have let my emotions run away with me because control is *supposed *to be something that Catholics practice regularly considering our style of worship If I were to reply to your post at this moment, I’d say much the same thing… include admonishing, but it would have been done in a more Catholic way. Once again, sorry.

 

[Beth_Martin]

Did you not read the sentence that said that the Church would never make rules like that? Remember, the Holy Spirit guides the Church (Jesus said so and he’s no liar)

Do you really think that the Pope would decree worshipping the beast for a very good and pious reason??? Come on now!

Come on; did God say the Holy Spirit is guiding the Catholic Church? You are correct Jesus never lied!!

Did Jesus promise the holy Spirit to those whom come to Him with a true heart of repentance? Is the work of the Holy Spirit to lead and to guide the sons of God into the Truth? Does the holy Spirit lie?

 

[Beth_Martin]

I’m sorry, but what are you talking about? The Priest is not the mediator. He is the instrument Christ uses to work, the “channel” if you will.

You’re also completely ignoring, “Whatever you bind on Earth will be bound in Heaven, and whatever you loose on Earth will be loosed in Heaven.” And in Acts of the Apostles, the Apostles perform miracles in Jesus’s name ALL THE TIME. Does that mean that what they’re doing is unscriptural? Impossible, since it’s in Scripture.

Read through the thread; i have addressed the loose and binding, a rabannical teaching with common use in Jesus day, which is why He used the phrase. The Jewish authorities who were around much longer the Catholic Church understood the concept; why don’t you?

The Jewish leaders would say if you keep the law you are loosed from your sins, but it you violate the law you are bound in your sins and heaven would be in agreement because the message is from heaven and given by the only authority in heaven and all of the universe, God.

Now bring that concept to the New Covenant or NT and in relation to the gospel, which is from heaven by the only true authority, God. So if you reject the gospel, then you are bound in your sins and if you accept then you are loosed. This is why it was first told to the apostles in Matthew 16 and Peter had the privledge to be the first to preach the NT gospel. But in Matthew 18 the same message is repeated to all of His disciples (followers) as Jesus was preaching; notice the words of Matthew 18 and compare the message to those spoken in the Sermon on the Mount; He was in full preaching mode, which is why the child He used as an example to make a point was near by.

The power is in the message and the authority is from heaven and the privledge and responsibility to deliver the message is of the Christian.

Now I hope you have an understanding and I also hope you see that what you have come to understand is contrary to the reality.

What was Jesus answer to His disciples when they asked Him how they should pray? How did Jesus tell us to confess our sins against God? Any confessional booth or priest as you know a priest involved? It is your religion and your beliefs, but you must recognize that much of it is contrary to Scripture, which is why I believe there are so many cafeteria, I believe that is how you all label them, Catholics who see through the externals and why I know that God will have both Catholics and non-Catholics in heaven because there will be those from both sides coming to Him on the basis of His grace and Mercy by faith alone in Jesus alone.

If you think about it; which I have lately, if you prepare and perform the Sacraments and say it is out of love for God, then you have no expectations for doing them except out of love; however the truth and the reality you perform and prepare tham and expect God to provide saving grace as you progress; therefore you are doing it out of selfish expectation and not out of love, otherwise you would not expect anything in return would you? Same thing with the confession; you go with the expectation that you will confess to the priest, then he will give you something to do such has say a few prayers or the rosary, then you walk away feeling better that you have a clean slate; whereas the true repentant comes to God not with the hope of forgiveness, for God has already forgiven the sins at salvation, but you come with a contrite heart and great sorrow for offending Him and give glory to him by coming to Him with a true heart of sorrow without any other expectations, but you also realize that because you did sin that God is righteous if He were to decide to discipline you. the priest has no right to decide the discipline, that is also of God privledge and right.

That is just not my religion of external, but mine is rom the attitude of how sin has ruined the entire creation and that I am worthy of death, but seeking God and begging for mercy, He is happy to give it to the huble in spirit and as a Christian we are to live our entire lives with this heartfelt attitude of sadness of our sin and rejoicing of our salvation and thankfulness to God for His lovingkindness.

 

[rinnie]

Some may just as some Catholics probably don’t. Just because someone’s Catholic doesn’t mean that the adhere to all the doctrines of the Catholic Church. .

Not true shawn, not true at all. You must adhere to all the teachings of the CC in order to be a Catholic.

 

[Beth_Martin]

Beth Martin in regular script
Loboto-Me in bold blue

Anyway, I’m not rewriting the whole thing, I addressed the John 20 earlier using your own “Objections and Responses”, which were not logical, rational or Biblical and I did post the link.

I looked at the posts and I fail to see where you responded to John 20. It’s probably there somewhere, but I just can’t find it, so if you don’t mind reposting it, I’ll see where you went wrong.
And as for logical and rational or biblical… LOL! I’ve got to take that one with a grain of salt considering what you’ve been writting lol!

It is you all that must cherry pick, that is how one reconciles contradictions to their own teachings. We just use the Word of God and therefore we need not cherry pick for we use the only source of Biblical truth to start with

You left out much in 2 Cor 5, the ministry of reconciliation is the gospel of repentance and the ambassadors are all Christians and the same word is used on one other time in the form and context in Ephesians 6:20 and again it is the proclamation of the gospel.

Cor2, you mean I left out "19 For God indeed was in Christ, reconciling the world to himself, not imputing to them their sins; and he hath placed in us the word of reconciliation. 20 For Christ therefore we are ambassadors, God as it were exhorting by us. For Christ, we beseech you, be reconciled to God"

Let’s examine this a bit… first we must see know what a ministry is
min·is·try
n. pl. min·is·tries **1. ****a. **The act of serving; ministration.
**b. **One that serves as a means; an instrumentality.

**2. ****a. **The profession, duties, and services of a minister.
**b. **The Christian clergy.
**c. **The period of service of a minister.

**3. ****a. **A governmental department presided over by a minister.
**b. **The building in which such a department is housed.
**c. **The duties, functions, or term of a governmental minister.
**d. **often Ministry Governmental ministers considered as a group

Now considering I added to the Cor which mentions that they (Paul and the “ministry”) are Ambassadors, let’s define that word

am·bas·sa·dor n. **1. **A diplomatic official of the highest rank appointed and accredited as representative in residence by one government or sovereign to another, usually for a specific length of time.
**2. **A diplomatic official heading his or her country’s permanent mission to certain international organizations, such as the United Nations.
**3. **An authorized messenger or representative.
**4. **An unofficial representative: ambassadors of goodwill.

Commonsense tells us that the ambassadors are official since they have a ministry… although they are also ambassadors of goodwill (Official ones)

Also, remember, that Jesus gave AUTHORITY to Peter and BREATHED on the apostles and told them of their official Ministry some times before this letter.

Try looking at the Greek definitions of the ambasadors and see if you can figure out which actually applies in the context of 2 Corithians and Ephians 6, then you might see the truth.

I am not going through John 20 again, but will give a brief comment; I assume you understand this is one place where the your church claims it authority as a Chruch and how Holy Orders gives a priest the right to forgive. My contention is that God alone forgives and no priest nor apostle can forgive sins, but the authority rests with the message that was given from the authority in heaven and the authority in heaven gave the privledge to the apostles and all Christians to preach the message and the acceptance or rejection of the message is what determines if the sins are forgiven or retained, which is why heaven would be in agreement because the message and the authority behind the message come from God.

Why This Gospel Was Written: the theme in the last few verses of John 20
***30 Therefore many other signs Jesus also performed in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book; 31 but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name. ***

This passage also demonstrates the “assurance of salvation to the true believer”.

 

[rinnie]

Read through the thread; i have addressed the loose and binding, a rabannical teaching with common use in Jesus day, which is why He used the phrase. The Jewish authorities who were around much longer the Catholic Church understood the concept; why don’t you?

The Jewish leaders would say if you keep the law you are loosed from your sins, but it you violate the law you are bound in your sins and heaven would be in agreement because the message is from heaven and given by the only authority in heaven and all of the universe, God.

Now bring that concept to the New Covenant or NT and in relation to the gospel, which is from heaven by the only true authority, God. So if you reject the gospel, then you are bound in your sins and if you accept then you are loosed. This is why it was first told to the apostles in Matthew 16 and Peter had the privledge to be the first to preach the NT gospel. But in Matthew 18 the same message is repeated to all of His disciples (followers) as Jesus was preaching; notice the words of Matthew 18 and compare the message to those spoken in the Sermon on the Mount; He was in full preaching mode, which is why the child He used as an example to make a point was near by.

The power is in the message and the authority is from heaven and the privledge and responsibility to deliver the message is of the Christian.

Now I hope you have an understanding and I also hope you see that what you have come to understand is contrary to the reality.

What was Jesus answer to His disciples when they asked Him how they should pray? How did Jesus tell us to confess our sins against God? Any confessional booth or priest as you know a priest involved? It is your religion and your beliefs, but you must recognize that much of it is contrary to Scripture, which is why I believe there are so many cafeteria, I believe that is how you all label them, Catholics who see through the externals and why I know that God will have both Catholics and non-Catholics in heaven because there will be those from both sides coming to Him on the basis of His grace and Mercy by faith alone in Jesus alone.

If you think about it; which I have lately, if you prepare and perform the Sacraments and say it is out of love for God, then you have no expectations for doing them except out of love; however the truth and the reality you perform and prepare tham and expect God to provide saving grace as you progress; therefore you are doing it out of selfish expectation and not out of love, otherwise you would not expect anything in return would you? Same thing with the confession; you go with the expectation that you will confess to the priest, then he will give you something to do such has say a few prayers or the rosary, then you walk away feeling better that you have a clean slate; whereas the true repentant comes to God not with the hope of forgiveness, for God has already forgiven the sins at salvation, but you come with a contrite heart and great sorrow for offending Him and give glory to him by coming to Him with a true heart of sorrow without any other expectations, but you also realize that because you did sin that God is righteous if He were to decide to discipline you. the priest has no right to decide the discipline, that is also of God privledge and right.

That is just not my religion of external, but mine is rom the attitude of how sin has ruined the entire creation and that I am worthy of death, but seeking God and begging for mercy, He is happy to give it to the huble in spirit and as a Christian we are to live our entire lives with this heartfelt attitude of sadness of our sin and rejoicing of our salvation and thankfulness to God for His lovingkindness.

Who said the Priest disciplines you? Where does the Church ever teach that. The Church teaches the words of Jesus. By the Power of the Holy Spirit they have the authority to forgive sin in Gods name. How can you reject that authority given to them by Jesus.

St Athanasius (360AD) Let us note that the very tradition, teaching and faith of the Catholic Church from the beginning, which the Lord gave, was preached by the Apostles and was preserved by the Fathers. On this was the Church founded, and if anyone departs from this he neither is nor any longer ought to be called a Christian. (four letter to serapion of thmius 1, 28)

 

[rinnie]

Come on; did God say the Holy Spirit is guiding the Catholic Church? You are correct Jesus never lied!!

Did Jesus promise the holy Spirit to those whom come to Him with a true heart of repentance? Is the work of the Holy Spirit to lead and to guide the sons of God into the Truth? Does the holy Spirit lie?

Yes he did promise us that. He promised us he was sending the Advocate the Holy Spirit to lead the CC into all truth.

 

[Loboto-Me]

Beth I’m no longer replying to your posts. I looked at the other posts you’ve posted through your profile, and I see that even other bible believing christians thought your ideas were off the wall.
The funny thing is, you’re rehashing the very same concepts you had no satifactory approval of from other threads into this one. So basically, your “questions” have been answered.

You’ve demonstrated to us Catholics a good demonstration of what Sola Scriptura can do to people.

Well, I’m off Camping for the long weekend… Woohoo! Be Back Monday or Tuesday

 

[Beth_Martin]

Justification comes from what? The forgiveness of sins, so you said it right your priests have no ability to justify or forgive sins just as the Scripture teaches, God alone can forgive sins.

I wholeheartedly agree that forgiveness comes from Jesus (God), but then you’ve decided to ignore all of the authority and ministry and ambassadorship that Jesus had the authority to give to the Apostles. What did Jesus tell them to do? Go forth and forgive sins, and baptize and spread the word. You see my friend, the CC has carried on the ministry, and if you read where our Popes come from, you’ll also see that our first Pope was Peter himself . Through the ages, into the 3rd millennium now, we have apostolic authority.

.

The authority lies within the message, not the messenger.

2 Corinthians 2 is about people forgiving another person for harm done to that person - person to person.

Jesus told them to preach the gospel and those that accept are forgiven and those that do not they remain in their sins; th the authority given was to preach the gospel and with that message, the acceptance or rejection comes forgiveness or not. Do you understand why we are called to preach the gospel; not going around saying you are forgiven and I don’t like the way you look so you are not. It is the message and the authority behind the message; why don’t you get it?

James 5

**and the prayer offered in faith will restore the one who is sick, and the Lord will raise him up, and if he has committed sins, they will be forgiven him. **

Again the same point, the Lord alone forgives and has nothing to do with a man forgiving sins.

1. Is it necessary to be celibate to receive the sacrament of Holy Orders?

It is always necessary to be celibate for the episcopacy. For the priesthood in the Latin Church men who are practicing Catholics and celibate are chosen, men who intend to continue to live a celibate life “for the kingdom of heaven” (Matthew 19:12). In the Eastern Churches marriage is not permitted after one has been ordained. Married men can be ordained to the permanent diaconate.

1. What are the effects of the sacrament of Holy Orders?

This sacrament yields a special outpouring of the Holy Spirit which configures the recipient to Christ in his triple office as Priest, Prophet, and King, according to the respective degrees of the sacrament. Ordination confers an indelible spiritual character and therefore cannot be repeated or conferred for a limited time.

Beth:

Won’t find this in Scripture

1. With what authority is the priestly ministry exercised?

Ordained priests in the exercise of their sacred ministry speak and act not on their own authority, nor even by mandate or delegation of the community, but rather in the Person of Christ the Head and in the name of the Church. Therefore, the ministerial priesthood differs essentially and not just in degree from the priesthood common to all the faithful for whose service Christ instituted it.

Beth:

Read Hebrews, you will see the total opposite of this.

Note

Compendium of the Catechism of the Catholic Church.
© 2005 Liberia Editrice Vaticana, 00120 Citta Del Vatican
www.vatican.va

As a side not: The term you use as priest is overseer, there is a separate word used for “priest”, like that of the Levitical type that offered sacrifices. The only sacrifices that are commanded by the Lord concerning the “royal priesthood” of believers is the following:

Therefore I urge you, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable to God, {which is} your spiritual service of worship. – Romans 12:1

Here you find the true and only Biblical priesthood according to God. I praise and thank God that few on both sides will have salvation through faith in Jesus Christ something I hope we both agree on since we do not agree on much else.

Beth

 

[KathleenGee]

Beth,

I was directed to this thread…

Who verifies the veracity of the message? How do you know? What sources do you have that insures the true intent of Christ?

The Gospels and Acts prove that Christ was no stranger to misunderstandings with people who even spoke the same language and grew up in the same town as Him…that alone is pretty bad…and then when the Lord had his apostles with Him, people were still misunderstanding and accusing Him…very bad…and then the Acts speak of people coming out with different doctrines and contradicting the Apostles…so bad…

Just wondering…I may not be staying very long either.

So with all the troubles of communicating the Message from Christ Himself, and the problems He had, to the apostles and the problems they had, how do you know and what safeguards you against misunderstandings of the Word of God?

 

[Beth_Martin]

Hi Texas,

I admit to getting “warmed up” in sections of my “Blue Reply” but that was a build up from previous posts by Beth where she came in here being obstinate about the Catholic Tradition and finally insulting our priesthood and Jesus with a thinly veiled part of scripture. Basically at that time I was replying in the same spirit as Beth had been posting.

The intent is not to insult the priesthood you believe in, but rather show from Scripture that it doesn’t exist in a Biblical sense and in fact Hebrews eliminates it in the way your church practices it. I could have said it differently and not come acorss as hostile toward your priesthood; after all it is your belief that it is legitimate according to your religion and my belief that it is not from a Biblical perspective. It is a difference in our religious beliefs more than anything else; so I apologize for insulting you and accept your apology as well.

 

[Beth_Martin]

Beth I’m no longer replying to your posts. I looked at the other posts you’ve posted through your profile, and I see that even other bible believing christians thought your ideas were off the wall.
The funny thing is, you’re rehashing the very same concepts you had no satifactory approval of from other threads into this one. So basically, your “questions” have been answered.

You’ve demonstrated to us Catholics a good demonstration of what Sola Scriptura can do to people.

Well, I’m off Camping for the long weekend… Woohoo! Be Back Monday or Tuesday

Name one Bible believing Christian who said “I was off the wall”; you can’t because it doesn’t exist. Have fun on your camping trip and stay safe i will pray for your safe travel and return.

Beth