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KathleenGee
Guest
Sigh…
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guanophore
Guest
No, it just means that we are not at liberty to embrace the heresies spawned during the Reformation, such as Sola Scriptura.
Perhaps you can start a new thread on this. It is off topic here.
The NT is a product of Catholic Sacred Tradition, and it is pretty clear.
This is not a “doctrinal error” of any kind, Beth. The only error is in your perception. You somehow see God working as separate from the Aposltes seeking and acting according to His will. God worked through the Apostles. The Church is incarnational, ensouled by the HS, she has a human and divine elements, just as Jesus does. They are not separated.
The production of scripture is another example of this incarnational principle. Men, moved by the HS, spoke from God. God working through fallible humans to create that which is without error.
And because it is part of the Sacred Tradition. There is no separation between the two,
We do not see a dichotomy, because we see God working through fallible human beings to fulfill His will.
Men, acting through the HS, made those rules.
You seem to be contradicting yourself again. First you say there are doctrinal errors, now you say that there are no deviations. It seems you are so bent on finding fault with Catholism that you can’t even keep your accusations in order.
Are you trying to use this to support your doctrine of Sola Scriptura?
We are not at liberty to give up what the Apostles committed to the church to embrace what constitutes “a different gospel”. If we were to embrace the heresies of the Reformation, then the Apostolic pronouncement of “let him be accursed” would fall upon us.
A good example of a tradition of men that contradicts the Scriptures.
It is sometimes easier to see our own shortcomings in others than to recognize them in ourselves.
K
KathleenGee
Guest
Thank you Guanaphore for all your catechesis…
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guanophore
Guest
I agree with you here. Humans developed an innovative doctrine called “sola scriptura” about 500 years ago, and claim that it is from God. However, it cannot be found in Scripture, or anywhere in the history of the Church. It is a very dangerous practice, for sure.
No. What have you got against Communion?
You have misunderstood the Teaching of the Church.
Do you not believe that God can save whoever He wants, however He likes? Do you object if He decides to save a child of Abraham who does not call himself a Christian?
No, I do not. Scripture is authoritative, but cannot be a 'supreme authority". The reason for this is because we all filter what we read through our own knowledge (or lack of it) and expereinces. That is why there are as many different understandings of Scripture as there are belly buttons. That is also why Jesus left people in authority, not writings, however Holy.
What you seem to be saying is that if something agrees with your perceptions and interpretation of scripture, then it is acceptable.
It is definitely unacceptable for individuals to come on the scene 2000 years after the fact, invent doctrines that were not consistent with the Apostolic faith, and claim they are an authority unto themselves. This is a consequence of the errant doctrine of Sola Scriptura.
How is that?
There you go again, making sweeping assumptions. What you don’t realize is that many of us here have converted or reverted from Protestantism, and formerly embraced many heresies, including Sola Scriptura. For that reason, we are very familiar with what it means, and what it does not mean.
You are right that no Catholic can accept such a departure from the Apostolic Teaching. It is BECAUSE we understand it that this is not possible. We recognize that it is part of “a different gospel” than the one that was preached to us from the Apostles.
We are here for just such persons as yourself, Beth. I hope your hostility toward the Catholic Church will not prevent you from finding out about all the misconceptions you have about our faith. This thread has made it clear that you hold a great deal of misinformation.
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guanophore
Guest
People like Beth have enriched me a great deal. I have learned volumes about my faith since coming to CAF. These encounters inspire me to research, and to study.
I also am very grateful, having been at one time where Beth is now, I realize how richly I am blessed in the One True Church.
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rinnie
Guest
Would give my eye teeth to just have you show us one.
K
KathleenGee
Guest
Guanaphore,
After reading all of the posts here, all I can say is I am so glad I am Catholic and what grace it is. so I echo what you say from a different perspective but same sentiment.
I am a cradle Catholic, lived a simple life. My father was in the seminary for two years. He had alot of good books in our house and taught us well. I went through a time of questioning, indifference, had some erroneous thinking but priests helped me. I have visited and respected Protestant services. But I get anxious and can’t wait to get back home…I mean, in 30 minutes…that fast.
After reading all of the posts here, all I can say is I am so glad I am Catholic and what grace it is. so I echo what you say from a different perspective but same sentiment.
I am a cradle Catholic, lived a simple life. My father was in the seminary for two years. He had alot of good books in our house and taught us well. I went through a time of questioning, indifference, had some erroneous thinking but priests helped me. I have visited and respected Protestant services. But I get anxious and can’t wait to get back home…I mean, in 30 minutes…that fast.
T
Texasgringo70
Guest
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rinnie
Guest
Hi Texas I would like to take a stab at answering your question.
First of all you must remember the Pope and Bishops are not infallible. They have sin also. The Pope goes to confession everyday.
But although the Pope and Bishops are not infallible they can porclaim Christ’s doctrine infallibly. But they must maintain the bond of unity among themselves and with Peter’s successor. ( the Pope). They concur in a single viewpoint as the one that must be held conclusively.
The way my Dad told me years ago and made it simple was this, it must always in no way go against scripture. Scripture must agree with scripture and Tradition. ( their definitions must always be adhered to with submission of faith. (Lumen Gentium 25)
But the Pope is the Supreme Teacher. Jesus said to Peter, Feed my Sheep in John. I have prayed for you that your faith may not fail. (Luke) and Matt. You are Peter.
So they all have the gift of the Holy Spirit to teach scripture. But what one teaches the other must also. They must be in agreement because the teaching does not come from them it comes from God by the Power of the Holy Spirit.
Christ instructed the Church to preach and teach everything he taught ( matt 2819-20) and promised the PROTECTION of the HOLY SPIRIT to guide you into all truth (Jon 6:13)
We have the promise that the church will never fall away from Gods teachings Matt 16:18 1 Tim 3:15 if even if individual Catholics might.
Augustine stated Rome has spoken the case is concluded (Sermons 131. 10)
Cyprian of Carthage said this Would the herestics dare to come to the very seat of peter whence apostolic faith is derived and whither no errors can come?
First of all you must remember the Pope and Bishops are not infallible. They have sin also. The Pope goes to confession everyday.
But although the Pope and Bishops are not infallible they can porclaim Christ’s doctrine infallibly. But they must maintain the bond of unity among themselves and with Peter’s successor. ( the Pope). They concur in a single viewpoint as the one that must be held conclusively.
The way my Dad told me years ago and made it simple was this, it must always in no way go against scripture. Scripture must agree with scripture and Tradition. ( their definitions must always be adhered to with submission of faith. (Lumen Gentium 25)
But the Pope is the Supreme Teacher. Jesus said to Peter, Feed my Sheep in John. I have prayed for you that your faith may not fail. (Luke) and Matt. You are Peter.
So they all have the gift of the Holy Spirit to teach scripture. But what one teaches the other must also. They must be in agreement because the teaching does not come from them it comes from God by the Power of the Holy Spirit.
Christ instructed the Church to preach and teach everything he taught ( matt 2819-20) and promised the PROTECTION of the HOLY SPIRIT to guide you into all truth (Jon 6:13)
We have the promise that the church will never fall away from Gods teachings Matt 16:18 1 Tim 3:15 if even if individual Catholics might.
Augustine stated Rome has spoken the case is concluded (Sermons 131. 10)
Cyprian of Carthage said this Would the herestics dare to come to the very seat of peter whence apostolic faith is derived and whither no errors can come?
K
KathleenGee
Guest
TexasGringo…
Yes, as Rinnie said, the emphasis is teaching. And the Pope, cardinals and bishops are also learning every day as us. And we do not look at them separate from Christ through the Holy Spirit.
All the faithful, including the ecclesiastics who have not lost their faith – and that happens – know Jesus Christ personally and together. And we know each other in Christ…what it means to be in Him, to suffer for Him, to witness the suffering of all people in the world who are God’s children.
And one of things a person does in maturing of one’s faith in the Church is not to be overly dependent or project entrustment issues on the clergy. There are some ethnic cultures who have done this, and had families who encouraged and placed their offsprings into the religious life, only to not really have a calling to it and cause abuse.
Or clerics sin…but in no way does their sin detract from the presence of Jesus Christ who is nurturing us and healing us in the ministers of the sacraments. We are really called to pray and do penance for them always, and many of us, like myself have failed in that at times. So our prayers for them strengthen them…if we do our part. We are all here to support each other in faith.
The bishops represent every believer in their diocese. The bishop has episcopal conferences, both national and regional. But he still is to report directly to the Holy Father in Rome who does appoint the bishops to their duties. The Cardinals are appointed, chosen, and do specific functions. They are also the ones who pray to the Holy Spirit to select the next pope. But what I have heard is that there is no stipulation that they have to be only cardinals to select a pope, that it can include others who are not…may be someone else can further define the role of cardinals.
But the bishop is a successor to the apostles. I have read documents by bishops appointed by some of the apostles. I have read some letters of those who were their pupils. The writings are very similar and educational. But I have found that those who were chosen by the apostles teach in a universal spirit like you see in the epistles…they are truly chosen.
The bishops today have the same presence and power of the apostles…but they are also relating to people in the spirit of our times.
The highest level of truth in the spirit of the church are the teachings of the pope in union with all the bishops – who represent us, know us, live among us, know our concerns – and they come forth to form decrees and councils. The documents of Vatican II represent the spirit of the church for today. The Holy Father, to teach infallibly, which isn’t hardly any time at all now, teaches first from Sacred Scripture through the Holy Spirit in union with Tradition — representing us the Church from the foundations set down by the Apostles through their appointed bishops and successors, in union with the bishops. So whatever is taught cannot contradict Scripture and Tradition and the grace of the Holy Spirit is intertwined in these two as well at work in the sacred calling of the sacrament of Holy Orders. Again, we must separate them and their humanity and their own walk in salvation from their ability to teach.
The second highest level of truth is our catechism – that defines God, Christ, Holy Spirit, creed, the Sacraments, morality derived from the 10 commandments and helps us know right from wrong in present times, such as abortion and stem cell research, etc., to prayer and spirituality. All prayer must center on the will of God for it to be sanctioned as Christian.
Third, then we have encyclicals, letters written by the Holy Fathers…and not all carry equal weight of truth. They range on a variety of topics, teachings.
So I hope this gives you some background, derived from our faith and canon law, as to understanding the administration of our church.
Yes, as Rinnie said, the emphasis is teaching. And the Pope, cardinals and bishops are also learning every day as us. And we do not look at them separate from Christ through the Holy Spirit.
All the faithful, including the ecclesiastics who have not lost their faith – and that happens – know Jesus Christ personally and together. And we know each other in Christ…what it means to be in Him, to suffer for Him, to witness the suffering of all people in the world who are God’s children.
And one of things a person does in maturing of one’s faith in the Church is not to be overly dependent or project entrustment issues on the clergy. There are some ethnic cultures who have done this, and had families who encouraged and placed their offsprings into the religious life, only to not really have a calling to it and cause abuse.
Or clerics sin…but in no way does their sin detract from the presence of Jesus Christ who is nurturing us and healing us in the ministers of the sacraments. We are really called to pray and do penance for them always, and many of us, like myself have failed in that at times. So our prayers for them strengthen them…if we do our part. We are all here to support each other in faith.
The bishops represent every believer in their diocese. The bishop has episcopal conferences, both national and regional. But he still is to report directly to the Holy Father in Rome who does appoint the bishops to their duties. The Cardinals are appointed, chosen, and do specific functions. They are also the ones who pray to the Holy Spirit to select the next pope. But what I have heard is that there is no stipulation that they have to be only cardinals to select a pope, that it can include others who are not…may be someone else can further define the role of cardinals.
But the bishop is a successor to the apostles. I have read documents by bishops appointed by some of the apostles. I have read some letters of those who were their pupils. The writings are very similar and educational. But I have found that those who were chosen by the apostles teach in a universal spirit like you see in the epistles…they are truly chosen.
The bishops today have the same presence and power of the apostles…but they are also relating to people in the spirit of our times.
The highest level of truth in the spirit of the church are the teachings of the pope in union with all the bishops – who represent us, know us, live among us, know our concerns – and they come forth to form decrees and councils. The documents of Vatican II represent the spirit of the church for today. The Holy Father, to teach infallibly, which isn’t hardly any time at all now, teaches first from Sacred Scripture through the Holy Spirit in union with Tradition — representing us the Church from the foundations set down by the Apostles through their appointed bishops and successors, in union with the bishops. So whatever is taught cannot contradict Scripture and Tradition and the grace of the Holy Spirit is intertwined in these two as well at work in the sacred calling of the sacrament of Holy Orders. Again, we must separate them and their humanity and their own walk in salvation from their ability to teach.
The second highest level of truth is our catechism – that defines God, Christ, Holy Spirit, creed, the Sacraments, morality derived from the 10 commandments and helps us know right from wrong in present times, such as abortion and stem cell research, etc., to prayer and spirituality. All prayer must center on the will of God for it to be sanctioned as Christian.
Third, then we have encyclicals, letters written by the Holy Fathers…and not all carry equal weight of truth. They range on a variety of topics, teachings.
So I hope this gives you some background, derived from our faith and canon law, as to understanding the administration of our church.
B
benedictus2
Guest
Firstly, I am not sure who did that translation. But this is the translation that I found:
***The holy images of our Lord Jesus Christ shall be honored in like manner as the Gospel-book. For, as the words of the Gospel lead us to salvation, so also do the pictures through their colors produce the same effect, ***and all, learned and unlearned, can derive benefit therefrom. The message that comes to us through the written word, the same is brought home to us through the color of the Picture. Since the honor directed toward the picture reverts in intention to the prototype, it follows, in accordance with right reason and ancient tradition, that pictures must be honored in the same manner as the Gospel-book and the picture of the precious cross. If, therefore, anyone does not now honor the picture of Christ, he shall not see His form when He comes to glorify His saints. Likewise do we design pictures and images of His Blessed Mother and of the angels, as also the Sacred Scriptures picture them for us in words; also of the Apostles, prophets, martyrs, and all the saints .
Conclusions:
Point 1: No it does not support Sola Scriptura in any way. We all affirm that the Gospel leads to salvation (when followed and lived). The question is whether we follow the Gospel or not. Part of that Gospel (part of the words in the gospel book are words of Christ that most protestants do not follow).
Point 2: If you are saying that we should uphold this canon, then don’t you think we should uphold it in it’s entirety with all it’s implications. So read the rest of the text . Slowly
**That translation was barely intelligible. Was there an an intent to obfuscate somehow? **
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rinnie
Guest
Texas your question kind of reminded me of something that the Priest told my husband almost 30 years ago.He was protestatant and had alot of questions for Father.
He said Father can I ask you a question, Father was young, maybe only ten years older than us at the time. He said I will try. But I may not have you the answer but I can promise you one thing. I can get you the answer.
Father said if he has a question he goes to the Bishop. If the Bishop cant answer it as you said he goes up. Father told my husband I will get you the answer if we have to go clear up to the Pope!
You must remember Catholic teaching is exactly what it claims. Catholic teaching. There is so so much to learn. We as individuals do the best we can. But as you can see, we as Catholics correct eachother also. But here is the difference if I say one thing and Guan says another and KG says another we go to the Church. If the Church would say Rinnie is right and guan, and KG is wrong
(sorry guys I gotta be on top once in awhile) then as the story goes Rome has spoken. We stand to be corrected and we move on. We all have alot to learn in our own faith trust me. And its constant and hard.My Dad has studied the Bible and Church teachings for most of his 83 years in this world. And was still learning the day before he died. ITs a growing thing. Grace is never given at one time. Grace is the mustard seed that takes off, if we water it.
K
KathleenGee
Guest
Correct, Rinnie.
The other point is that we are all on different levels. We are relaying truth…but again, it is in communion we see the Church as a whole.
What I shared came from my priest instructor who studied at the Angelicum in Rome. He was appointed by Archbishop Levada at that time – who is now serving Pope Benedict at the Vatican --and was assigned to correct any errors that were being taught by professional lay ministers. I was raising my family at that time, but was supported by my parish to get my training. I am now only beginning to go back out.
People come on to CAF and say this theologian said this … or that that appears to contradict a teaching of the church. It is all about context and the times…and small church traditions change, such as eating of meat on Fridays.
But it is good we have a church that makes demands on us. I am thinking of Bosnia during time of Tito. If you publicly worshiped, you would not get promoted. The Orthodox Serbs and Muslims did not go to church in a faithful way like the Catholics who made it to Mass every Sunday, and did not get economically promoted.
Rules and laws help make us one and define our unity and character, and raise the bar to always help us desire to become better. You can’t call that works, but a life seeking a more mystical one united with the Lord, and not to be so attached to the passing things of this world.
Rinnie or Benedictus, can you share more on the role of cardinals…
The other point is that we are all on different levels. We are relaying truth…but again, it is in communion we see the Church as a whole.
What I shared came from my priest instructor who studied at the Angelicum in Rome. He was appointed by Archbishop Levada at that time – who is now serving Pope Benedict at the Vatican --and was assigned to correct any errors that were being taught by professional lay ministers. I was raising my family at that time, but was supported by my parish to get my training. I am now only beginning to go back out.
People come on to CAF and say this theologian said this … or that that appears to contradict a teaching of the church. It is all about context and the times…and small church traditions change, such as eating of meat on Fridays.
But it is good we have a church that makes demands on us. I am thinking of Bosnia during time of Tito. If you publicly worshiped, you would not get promoted. The Orthodox Serbs and Muslims did not go to church in a faithful way like the Catholics who made it to Mass every Sunday, and did not get economically promoted.
Rules and laws help make us one and define our unity and character, and raise the bar to always help us desire to become better. You can’t call that works, but a life seeking a more mystical one united with the Lord, and not to be so attached to the passing things of this world.
Rinnie or Benedictus, can you share more on the role of cardinals…
B
benedictus2
Guest
Aaah, but we do not say that the ministers of the Church are infallible. People make this mistake all the time. What that Church teaches is that Pope and the Magisterium will not make an error in promulgating doctrine.
Individually they can argue as is the case with all doctrines that have been pronounced by the church. One must remember that some of the heresies came from Bishops such as Nestorius.
Only where the dispute is not concerning something that has been promulgated as dogma
Take for example the doctrine on the Trinity. When the church was wrestlng with this doctrine, there were about 7 heresies relating to this doctrine. Once the Chuch has spoken - setting out the doctrine as Three Persons in One God - then that doctrine cannot once again be put under dispute.
Yes. But in deciding anything they always pass this by Holy Tradition. It must be remembered that prior to being written, the NT was part of oral Tradition. As a matter of fact, when the cannon was first established, Pope St Clement referred to it not as the Canon of Scriptures but as the “Canon of our Traditions”.
B
benedictus2
Guest
Well, how about you name a few.
By the way: before you do, you might want to click on this "Ag_nots Catholic Scriptural Challenge - just ONE proven example wins!! "
link (thread) first and see if the Catholic teaching you are about to write as an example is truly contradictory to Scripture.
B
benedictus2
Guest
How about starting with the Catechism. Here is a link. Go slowly.
vatican.va/archive/catechism/ccc_toc.htm
Now, because you asked, you are actually bound to read it. Really read it. Else you are being intellectually dishonest and don’t really humbly want to to learn and dispel the ignorance…
Happy reading
T
Texasgringo70
Guest
OK y’all. I think I got it. Y’all answered my questions and then some. Thanks especially for helping me understand the difference between a Bishop and a Cardinal. I always thought that Cardinals were between the Pope and the Bishops in ranking of authority. For now I think that this is all I can absorb. I’ll be having a busy weekend, so I won’t be ably to keep this up anyway. If I have any more questions I’ll just have to ask them later. Thanks again for all your efforts. I am humbled that you would exert this much effort on little old me.
K
KathleenGee
Guest
Why are you leaving??? It is only the beginning…
And the history…and the Orthodox…and the Anglicans, Lutherans…
And how Catholics relate to Scripture…it is very good and systematic…and with the Holy Spirit of course…
And the history…and the Orthodox…and the Anglicans, Lutherans…
And how Catholics relate to Scripture…it is very good and systematic…and with the Holy Spirit of course…
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guanophore
Guest
CAF is here for you! I appreciate the opportunity for dialogue, as it helps me grow in my faith also,
Yes, the disagreements have been settled according to the pattern we seen in Acts. The authorties put in place by Christ meet, pray, discuss, and discern the will of God, then come to a decision. Once that is done, the faithful are instructed, just as they were in the letter sent by the Apostles to the faithful.
The ministers of the Church are not infallible. The gift of infallibity applies to the teaching. The HS protects the church from error (“the HS will lead you into all Truth”) supernaturally. He does this through flawed human beings. None of the Apostles and disciples in the council of Jerusalem described in Acts were impeccable (sinless). however, they were able to come to an infallible decision because of the HS.
Yes. It is the decision that is infallible, not the people. They are upheld by the HS to come to the decision. it is the same as the writing of scripture. Fallible persons engaged in an infallible act (writing what the Spirit guided).
These kinds of disputes have been going on since the NT times. The divisions wound the Body,an d in some cases it has taken the Church years to sort things out. However, once the Church reaches the conclusion “it seemed right to the HS and to us”, the matter is settled. Those who may not agree get on board, or they are heretics.
Yes, and history bears out this fact. However, it is not just the Scriptures, but the Sacred Tradition that guides the decisions.
Please do start as many threads as you have skirts.
E
Esdra
Guest
Hello everybody!
I have often read here in CAF that Catholics believe in ST (=Sacred Tradition), which means that there are more things than in the bible handed down through the ages by the priests who are the desectors of the Apostels (Apostolic Succession). [By the way that’s comparable to the “Doctrine and Covenants” by Joseph Smith in the LDS Church!]
But what does it mean then when Paul writes in 1 Cor 11:34
NASB:
Where did they know it from? From the apostels? Have they spoken to the apostels?
I simply don’t get it…
I simply think that the Sacred Tradition ARE the Sacred Scriptures.
So there we are: Sola Scriptura.
In Christ,
Esdra
I have often read here in CAF that Catholics believe in ST (=Sacred Tradition), which means that there are more things than in the bible handed down through the ages by the priests who are the desectors of the Apostels (Apostolic Succession). [By the way that’s comparable to the “Doctrine and Covenants” by Joseph Smith in the LDS Church!]
But what does it mean then when Paul writes in 1 Cor 11:34
Does it mean that the decestors of the Apostels decided, “hey that’s good we have to write it down in Catechism”, or what?
Where did they know it from? From the apostels? Have they spoken to the apostels?
I simply don’t get it…
I simply think that the Sacred Tradition ARE the Sacred Scriptures.
So there we are: Sola Scriptura.
In Christ,
Esdra
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