Sola Scriptura Silence

[inkaneer]

so what does it mean, “None is righteous, no, not one” romans 3:10 or when Jesus said, “Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone.” mark 10:18?

i have to be careful as to what i say but mary born without sin?

what does the Bible say about this?

Luke 1:46 And Mary said, "My soul magnifies the Lord, 47 and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior,

if mary was without sin, why would say this?

all far short of the Glory of God and in need of a Savior.

One must realize why Mary was created without sin. What was the reason for miracle of God? The reason is Jesus. Without Jesus Mary is created in sin just like all of us. So yes, Jesus is the savior of Mary. But her salvation is pre emptive. Here is a good analogy supposed there is a ditch on the sin of a path and the ditch is half filled with mud and water. How do you save someone from that ditch? There are two ways. You can pull them out after they have fallen in which corresponds to the way we are saved. They will be muddy and taintedbut saved none the less. The other way to save someone is you can prevent them from falling in in the first place. That way they are not tainted they are in fact immaculate. This was the way Mary was saved. Now which is the better way?

 

[ralphy]

Can infants sin? Yes or No?
Can mentally deficient people sin? Yes or No?
Did Jesus sin? Yes or No?

Have ALL sinned? Yes or No?

“All” does not mean “each and every single person who has ever been born.”

Accept it.

I don’t believe that infants sin, however they were born in sin. Can mentally deficient people sin, I don’t think so, however ,they were born in sin. Did Jesus sin, no He did not sin. Yes, all have sinned and come short of the glory of God. Christ is God incarnate and could not sin. I somehow think you know that. Ralph

 

[SteveGC]

did not know paul, peter, james and john lived that long, it makes perfect sense now thank you steve

Is that a sarcastic reply in an attempt to avoid the essence of my post?

Of course they did not live nearly long enough to be alive at the time the Bible was first canonized. The last of them died nearly 300 years before that.

So, would you care to address my post?

 

[SteveGC]

I don’t believe that infants sin, however they were born in sin. Can mentally deficient people sin, I don’t think so, however ,they were born in sin. Did Jesus sin, no He did not sin. Yes, all have sinned and come short of the glory of God. Christ is God incarnate and could not sin. I somehow think you know that. Ralph

It doesn’t say ‘all were *born in *sin’.

It says 'all have sinned’

Which implies an act of the “all” to freely sin. It is an action, not a state of birth (original sin) that is being inferred in these verses.

Understanding that context, and understanding the fact that NOT ALL have freely sinned of their own accord (infants, mentally disabled, etc), may help you come to terms with the fact that the term “ALL” must be understood in the language under which it was first uttered (as others here have educated you on), and that therefore Scripture indeed allows for the truth about Mary’s immaculate conception.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Jesus’ birth is documented as to how he was conceived not mary’s

Depends on where you’re looking for the documentation, I suppose.

The original Church, the only one founded by Jesus Himself and given the gift of infallibility, has discerned from the scriptures and from the writings of the Early Church Fathers who passed on the oral traditions of the Apostles, that Mary was conceived without sin.

When discussing the Immaculate Conception, an implicit reference may be found in the angel’s greeting to Mary. The angel Gabriel said, “Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with you” (Luke 1:28). The phrase “full of grace” is a translation of the Greek word kecharitomene. It therefore expresses a characteristic quality of Mary.

The traditional translation, “full of grace,” is better than the one found in many recent versions of the New Testament, which give something along the lines of “highly favored daughter.” Mary was indeed a highly favored daughter of God, but the Greek implies more than that (and it never mentions the word for “daughter”). The grace given to Mary is at once permanent and of a unique kind. Kecharitomene is a perfect passive participle of charitoo, meaning “to fill or endow with grace.” Since this term is in the perfect tense, it indicates that Mary was graced in the past but with continuing effects in the present. So, the grace Mary enjoyed was not a result of the angel’s visit. In fact, Catholics hold, it extended over the whole of her life, from conception onward. She was in a state of sanctifying grace from the first moment of her existence.

Hope this helps. :tiphat:

 

[Jerry_Marino]

since this thread is sola scriptura, i just would like where this doctrine of mary comes from and this just of her sinless life, no one has even touched that she not die which also is not found in scripture so please enlighten me. don’t argue with me show me convince me in what you believe to be true.

 

[ralphy]

One must realize why Mary was created without sin. What was the reason for miracle of God? The reason is Jesus. Without Jesus Mary is created in sin just like all of us. So yes, Jesus is the savior of Mary. But her salvation is pre emptive. Here is a good analogy supposed there is a ditch on the sin of a path and the ditch is half filled with mud and water. How do you save someone from that ditch? There are two ways. You can pull them out after they have fallen in which corresponds to the way we are saved. They will be muddy and taintedbut saved none the less. The other way to save someone is you can prevent them from falling in in the first place. That way they are not tainted they are in fact immaculate. This was the way Mary was saved. Now which is the better way?

They were born tainted. Ralph

 

[ralphy]

Depends on where you’re looking for the documentation, I suppose.

The original Church, the only one founded by Jesus Himself and given the gift of infallibility, has discerned from the scriptures and from the writings of the Early Church Fathers who passed on the oral traditions of the Apostles, that Mary was conceived without sin.

When discussing the Immaculate Conception, an implicit reference may be found in the angel’s greeting to Mary. The angel Gabriel said, “Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with you” (Luke 1:28). The phrase “full of grace” is a translation of the Greek word kecharitomene. It therefore expresses a characteristic quality of Mary.

The traditional translation, “full of grace,” is better than the one found in many recent versions of the New Testament, which give something along the lines of “highly favored daughter.” Mary was indeed a highly favored daughter of God, but the Greek implies more than that (and it never mentions the word for “daughter”). The grace given to Mary is at once permanent and of a unique kind. Kecharitomene is a perfect passive participle of charitoo, meaning “to fill or endow with grace.” Since this term is in the perfect tense, it indicates that Mary was graced in the past but with continuing effects in the present. So, the grace Mary enjoyed was not a result of the angel’s visit. In fact, Catholics hold, it extended over the whole of her life, from conception onward. She was in a state of sanctifying grace from the first moment of her existence.

Hope this helps. :tiphat:

The gift of infallibility? Where is that gift listed in scripture. Only God is infallible. Ralph

 

[fhansen]

since this thread is sola scriptura, i just would like where this doctrine of mary comes from and this just of her sinless life, no one has even touched that she not die which also is not found in scripture so please enlighten me. don’t argue with me show me convince me in what you believe to be true.

That’s like someone demanding that unless every event in your life is documented in written form they must not have happened. And even if they were so documented, how does that, by itself, prove anything anyway?

 

[SteveGC]

The gift of infallibility? Where is that gift listed in scripture. Only God is infallible. Ralph

Well, it doesn’t say “God is infallible” in Scripture either, but it does *infer *it…such as here:

Matthew 5:48 "Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect

You wouldn’t argue that “perfect” is a suitable term for “infallible”, no? I would assume you must agree, since there’s not much else scripturally to go by to assume God is infallible.

And in this verse, is it not also inferred that, through the GIFT of grace, God is capable of making US perfect? Therefore YOU ARE TO BE PERFECT…

And therefore, as the Holy Spirit (GIFT of GRACE) was breathed onto the Twelve (The Church), and they were promised that the Spirit would guide them into all Truth, and ALL TRUTH is nothing less than perfect, is it not obvious that this is the gift of perfection…the gift of infallibility?

 

[ralphy]

That’s like someone demanding that unless every event in your life is documented in written form they must not have happened. And even if they were so documented, how does that, by itself, prove anything anyway?

I find this statement rather odd: do you believe anything that is documemted? ralph

 

[fhansen]

I find this statement rather odd: do you believe anything that is documemted? ralph

Of course, but I don’t believe everything just because it’s documented.

 

[ralphy]

Well, it doesn’t say “God is infallible” in Scripture either, but it does *infer *it…such as here:

Matthew 5:48 "Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect

You wouldn’t argue that “perfect” is a suitable term for “infallible”, no? I would assume you must agree, since there’s not much else scripturally to go by to assume God is infallible.

And in this verse, is it not also inferred that, through the GIFT of grace, God is capable of making US perfect? Therefore YOU ARE TO BE PERFECT…

And therefore, as the Holy Spirit (GIFT of GRACE) was breathed onto the Twelve (The Church), and they were promised that the Spirit would guide them into all Truth, and ALL TRUTH is nothing less than perfect, is it not obvious that this is the gift of perfection…the gift of infallibility?

Not while we are still in the flesh, no perfection there, sorry. Born again Christians also have the Holy Spirit, and are lead by the Holy Spiritin into ALL TRUTH, but I know that they are not “infallible”. Ralph

 

[SteveGC]

since this thread is sola scriptura, i just would like where this doctrine of mary comes from and this just of her sinless life, no one has even touched that she not die which also is not found in scripture so please enlighten me. don’t argue with me show me convince me in what you believe to be true.

Actually, Jerry…this thread ISN’T sola scriptura as in ‘everything we discuss MUST be shown to me from scripture’. You can start a new thread based on that if you want…

This thread is about whether or not the scriptural absence of the SS doctrine is evidence that it is not a valid doctrine. You may want to revisit the OP.

To that end, I would say that the absence of anything in the Bible proves nothing either way. Scripture doesn’t say anything about 'accepting Christ as your personal Lord and Savior"…yet all fundamentalists believe that is the way to salvation. Are they right? Well, that’s debatable for sure…but what we CAN say is that Scripture’s lack of that “doctrine” does not prove, nor disprove, the notion. In the same way, the absence of direct, explicit explanation of all things “Mary”, does not disprove that these things are in fact, true about Her.

God Bless

p.s. I suppose neither you nor Ralph are interested in responding to my earlier post (295)?

 

[SteveGC]

Not while we are still in the flesh, no perfection there, sorry. Born again Christians also have the Holy Spirit, and are lead by the Holy Spiritin into ALL TRUTH, but I know that they are not “infallible”. Ralph

Sorry, wrong Ralphy.

If you read Matt 5 closely, toward verse 43 through 48…you’ll clearly see that the call to perfection through Christ is referring to earthly life, not just the afterlife.

It does NOT say “you WILL BE perfect”, which would infer what you would like it to infer, solely a future (afterlife) event…but no…it says “ARE TO BE perfect”, which in the context of what Jesus is telling them, is a present participle, i.e. NOT future tense. In other words, Jesus is talking about their earthly life behaviors, and exhorting them in righteousness. He does this all the way up to verse 48, in which He tells them they “are to be perfect”. He doesn’t go through all the trouble of explaining to the disciples how to behave, and then sum it all up with ‘you’ll eventually be perfect when you die and go to heaven’. That’s not a contextual reading of those verses at all.

Through the gift of grace, we are capable, although not assured of, perfection in THIS LIFE. I’m sure not many attain it, but that doesn’t change the clear fact that Grace makes it possible…just like grace made Mary’s perfection (and the Church’s teaching perfection) possible.

God Bless

 

[inkaneer]

[QUOTEIf I understand the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception correctly, the inference is that God can grant complete immunity from sin to human beings yet grants it only to one. So why not just grant immunity to everybody and save everybody that way?
=Benadam;5036264]Free will

Because God planned for the salvation of mankind through the Incarnation. The Immaculate Conception was a part of that plan. And one more thing The Incarnation is not merely the “Word made Flesh”. It is the entire plan of God for the remption of mankind encompassing everything from the Immaculate Conception to the Nativity to The Passion, Crucifixion and Resurrection.

 

[inkaneer]

The gift of infallibility? Where is that gift listed in scripture. Only God is infallible. Ralph

Try Matthew 16:19 where Jesus says to Peter: “I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”

Did you ever try binding or loosening something in heaven? Do you know the significance of what it means to bind or to loose? Do you know the significance of the Keys?

 

[baddog]

Not while we are still in the flesh, no perfection there, sorry. Born again Christians also have the Holy Spirit, and are lead by the Holy Spiritin into ALL TRUTH, but I know that they are not “infallible”. Ralph

How can the truth be fallible? With that, where do we find truth?

1 Tim. 3:15 if I am delayed, you may know how one ought to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth.

 

[Ferde_Rombola]

Not while we are still in the flesh, no perfection there, sorry. Born again Christians also have the Holy Spirit, and are lead by the Holy Spiritin into ALL TRUTH, but I know that they are not “infallible”. Ralph

You’re making no sense again, Ralph. If you’re led into all truth, how is it you’re not infallible? If you’re not infallible, how can you be led to all truth?

These are the kinds of knots protestants tie themselves up in when they open with the notion they are ALL authorized to interpret Scripture.

 

[centurion210]

since this thread is sola scriptura, i just would like where this doctrine of mary comes from and this just of her sinless life, no one has even touched that she not die which also is not found in scripture so please enlighten me. don’t argue with me show me convince me in what you believe to be true.

The Immaculate Conception occurred when Mary was conceived in the womb of her mother. She was conceived in the normal way, but from the moment of her conception she was spared the stain of original sin. This was done by grace alone through her son Jesus Christ who is also her Savior.
The analogy given before, by someone on this thread, was an excellent example. Saving a person before they fall down, does the same thing as picking them up after they fall, but it saves them from getting dirty. This is essentially what happened in our Blessed Mother’s case .
Why this happened, although not explicit in Scripture, is certainly implicit. First of all, the early church believed that Mary was the new “Eve”, just as they believed Jesus was the new Adam. Whereas, sin entered the world through Eve, salvation came through Mary.
Now, I think it is safe to say that the Old Testament foreshadows all that happened in the New Testament. Since Eve entered the world without sin, could Mary, the Ark of the new covenant, be any less? Do you remember how the Ark of the covenant was treated in the Old Testament? It was made of the finest purest materials. It could only be touched by certain individuals. Only the chief priests were allowed into the inner sanctum where it was kept. Also, if you remember in 2 Kings, when they were moving the Ark; it started to fall and someone reached over to grab it. They were struck dead immediately. Such was the importance God placed on the contents of the Ark. When he shows us in the Old Testament how much he values the contents of the Ark, does he really have to spell it out for us considering how much greater the contents of the new covenant (our Savior Jesus Christ)? So, here we apply faith and reason.
Although it’s been covered very well by others, the angels greeting to Mary does clearly indicate that she was, is and always will be “Full of Grace”. Furthermore, how could the blood that would be shed for the entire world come from anything but a pure source.
Frankly, to diminish Mary in any way, is an insult to the Lord. Everything in the way we honor Mary is to glorify the Lord even more.