Sola Scriptura Silence

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I think there is alot to be said that wasn’t touched here.

I agree, but JJ59 has already made up his mind, and this could turn into a large discussion, and could very easily cover multiple topics. Perhaps another time in another thread.

Pax!
 
this reminds me of something that happened to me in the 80’s the Bible is the only doctrine and it has to be a King James Version. This lady was trying to prove to me that the Catholic Church was a cult she quoted some verse in Revelation about adding to or taking away from this book, I took it to mean the book of Revelation but she said it meant the Bible. She then proceeded to tell me the Catholic Church added 7 books to the Bible so the Catholic Bible wasn’t a Bible therefore Catholics aren’t Christian, I did not argue with her I got a book from the library to show her the History of the Bible, she really couldn’t say much, she did not know The Bible was actually preserved by Catholics and if anyone had added to or taken books from, it was the Protestants. 😃
 
I’m diggin’ the seperate threads idea.

Sola Scriptura is a touchy topic. But what it all really boils down to is interpretation.

Any passage can be interpreted in any possible way. Without an infallible authority to guide you, Scripture is impossible to be figured out. For example, how are we saved? Faith, Works? Baptism? Do we need to have an “emotional experience” (born again), do we need to stay faithful until the end? Do we need to turn from sin? How’s one to know, truly have assurance, that they’re interpreting Scipture correctly? This is only found in the RCC.

Well, I haven’t made up my mind for good. I think everyone has a chance of converting if good points are brought up. (really good) I’m Catholic-bound for now, and am reasonbly assured that that’s the way, but I’m still open.

Anyway, I like this discussion. God Bless you all!!!
 
Cachonga’s original quotes truncated due to space limitations.
JJ59

As far as the Ethiopian eunuch, how was he convinced of the claims of Jesus Christ? Was it a church teaching, or was it by Phillip explaining scriptures?
You imply a dichotomy where none exists. Church teaching is scriptural.
When Paul was on his missionary journey, we see the people of Berea were commended. Why? Because “they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.” (Acts 17:11).
But the Bereans were not sola scripturists, the Thessalonians were - and many of them missed the gospel!
And let’s not forget Luke 24, specifically verses 25-27. I would consider Jesus authoritative! Also consider Mark 7:6-16. Jesus gives an example of holding up a tradition against Scripture to determine if it’s from God or just “a tradition of men” (any tradition that contradicts the scripture is NOT from God, as even the Catholic Church agrees).
Cachonga-

Thanks for your thoughts. I invite you to share any example of a Church teaching that contradicts scripture with us. I look forward to seeing what you have come up with. I also have a single question regarding sola scriptura: Where does the Bible itself teach sola scriptura? This is important, so I’d like the chapter and verse, please. If you are a bit of an AOMIN fan, you’ll no doubt be familiar with the fact that even Bishop White could not provide the winning answer in his debated on *sola *scriptura with Patrick Madrid. Of course a few years have passed since that whipping…perhaps the gang at AOMIN have come up with something by now. Mind sharing it with us? Thanks.
What about “Moses Seat” (Matt 23:1-3)? Does that disprove Sola
Scriptura? I don’t think so.
The reference to Moses Seat simply illustrates that Jesus Himself was familiar with and apparently passed along oral Tradition that was not recorded in the OT. Make of that what you will. As for words or deeds of Jesus or the Apostles, sure. We baptize infants, practice oral confession to our priests and celebrate mass according to the oral teachings of the Apostles.
As far as how we know what books belong in the Bible, I would first point out that Jesus held the Jews responsible for the Bible when He walked the earth. Did the Jews have an infallible knowledge? Did they have an infallible magisterium? I don’t think so. Yet, when Jesus said “it is written” they knew what he was referring to. I believe that godly men, led by the Holy Spirit, held the writings that God ordained as Sacred Scripture. This happened over hundreds of years for the Old Testament, and a lot less time for the New Testament. You may take a look at the Forum and see how the Church determined the Bible was inspired (I doubt the spiral argument described was applied to the book of Judith!). The Scriptures I have today are the result of this process, and I believe I will be held as accountable to them as the Jews were held accountable to the Old Testament by Jesus.
You mentioned the “Church” determined the inspired books. One question: which Church wrote, discerned, canonized, preserved, protected and preached the Scriptures prior to 1517?
In regard to the 33,000+ protestant denominations, I will simply direct you to the following site - aomin.org/aoblog/index.php?itemid=2218.
James White? “Dr.” James White? No thank you. But quick, off the top of your head, how many Protestant denominations can you personally name? 8? 10? 15? Okay, now how many “churches” did Jesus promise to build in Mt. 16:18? That’s right. One. That Church still exists and it is known by the same name that it has been known by since the end of the first century (within the lifetime of the Apostle John): the Catholic Church.
Just so you can see where I’m coming from - I was born and raised Roman Catholic. I have received 6 of the 7 sacraments by the time I was 30. I married a widow with 3 kids. We got a special dispensation from the Bishop and didn’t have to go through the 6 months pre-cana classes (we had a 3 month engagement). Her kids had been baptized, but that was it. During our engagement, I trained all 3 of our kids, and they all received their first communion the same day we were married. I had been reading my Bible for years. About 3 years after I was married, I was looking for something to read from the Library, and I found the Documents of Vatican II. I thought “Hey, I’ve read the Bible. Let’s see what I’m supposed to believe and defend as a Catholic”. I was surprised, shocked, and amazed. After seeking God’s will through prayer and fasting, I was convinced by the Scriptures.

I pray that God will guide you in the way of life!
He did when he called me OUT of Protestantism and INTO the one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church 30 years ago. But please, start a thread on each “shocking and amazing” quote from the Second Vatican Council that convinced you to leave the Church.

I’ll be happy to spend time with you in each thread.
 
Berean Rejection of Sola Scriptura
From Steve Ray’s article: catholic.com/thisrock/1997/9703fea3.asp

If one group could be tagged as believers in sola scriptura, who would it be, the Thessalonians or the Bereans? The Thessalonians, obviously. They, like the Bereans, examined the Scriptures with Paul in the synagogue, yet they rejected his teaching. They rejected the new teaching, deciding after three weeks of deliberation that Paul’s word contradicted the Torah. Their decision was not completely unjustified from their scriptural perspective. How could the Messiah of God be cursed by hanging on a tree like a common criminal, publicly displayed as one who bore the judgment of God? What kind of king and Messiah would that be? This seemed irreconcilable to them (see Simon J. Kistemaker, Acts [Grand Rapids, Michigan: Baker Books, 1990], 614).

When some of the Greeks and prominent citizens did accept Jesus as Messiah, the Jews became jealous—and rightfully so, from their perspective, since the new believers separated themselves from the synagogue and began meeting elsewhere, at Jason’s house. The Jews naturally considered themselves the authoritative interpreters of the Torah. Who were the Gentiles to interpret Scripture and decide important theological issues or accept additional revelation? They were the “dogs,” not the chosen custodians of the oracles of God (see William Barclay, The Acts of the Apostles [Philadelphia, Pennsylvania: Westminster Press, 1976], 128).

We can see, then, that if anyone could be classified as adherents to sola scriptura it was the Thessalonian Jews. They reasoned from the Scriptures alone and concluded that Paul’s new teaching was “unbiblical.”

The Bereans, on the other hand, were not adherents of sola scriptura, for they were willing to accept Paul’s new oral teaching as the word of God (as Paul claimed his oral teaching was; see 1 Thess. 2:13). The Bereans, before accepting the oral word of God from Paul, a tradition as even Paul himself refers to it (see 2 Thess. 2:15), examined the Scriptures to see if these things were so. They were noble-minded precisely because they “received the word with all eagerness.” Were the Bereans commended primarily for searching the Scriptures? No. Their open-minded willingness to listen was the primary reason they are referred to as noble-minded—not that they searched the Scriptures. A perusal of grammars and commentaries makes it clear that they were “noble-minded” not for studying Scripture, but for treating Paul more civilly than did the Thessalonians—with an open mind and generous courtesy (see I. Howard Marshall, “The Acts of the Apostles” in the Tyndale New Testament Commentaries [Grand Rapids, Michigan: Eerdmans, 1981], 5:280).

The Bereans searched the Torah no less than the Thessalonians, yet they were eager to accept words of God from the mouth of Paul, in addition to what they already held to be Scripture, that is, the Law and the Prophets. Even if one claims that Paul preached the gospel and not a “tradition,” it is clear that the Bereans were accepting new revelation that was not contained in their Scriptures. These Berean Jews accepted oral teaching, the tradition of the apostles, as equal to Scripture, in addition to, and as an “extension” of, the Torah. This is further illustrated by the Christian community’s reception of Paul’s epistles as divinely inspired Scripture (see 2 Peter 3:16; here Peter seems to acknowledges Paul’s writings as equal to the “other Scriptures,” which can be presumed to refer to the Old Testament).

+++

Those who followed the doctrine of sola scriptura, the Thessalonians, rejected Paul’s oral preaching and the long awaited Messiah. Those who accepted oral teaching AND scripture, the Bereans, accepted the Gospel and the Messiah.

Additionally, although both groups searched the scriptures, they came to contradictory conclusions about the Messiah. Clearly, scripture alone is insufficient to ensure proper interpretation.
 
In the case of Phillip teaching the eunuch, he showed him Jesus in the Scriptures (yes, this was what we call the Old Testament). What “Sacred Tradition” did Phillip teach that was not found in Scripture? Did he also tell the eunuch about Mary’s perpetual virginity? How about the primacy and infallibility of the Pope (who was probably not even in Rome at the time)? The question of “What if the Pharisees got to him first? …etc…” is a mute point. How do we know that wasn’t going to happen? Remember, Phillip didn’t happen to be taking a long walk; God had instructed him to be there, and then to join up with the chariot.
Philip, as an Apostle, was functioning in his role as a teaching authority within the Church. He was able to infallibly interpret the prophecies of the OT that pertained to Jesus.

Thus, Philip provides an excellent example of how the Magisterium of the Church (that is, the Pope and all of the Bishops in communion with him) operates: they infallibly interpret and teach the Word of God.

Thanks for bringing this excellent example to our attention!

Regarding the Perpetual Virginity of Mary and the infallibility of the Pope, these doctrines were there in the beginning (if you know where to look), but they were not among the first to be developed into full-blown understanding…the Church had other issues that were more pressing. Stephen had been stoned, James was soon put to the sword, and you may recall that a zealous Pharisee named Saul was breathing murderous threats and persecuting the Church from the get-go, for example.
 
This has been an interesting discussion so far. I apologize for the delay in responding. I have had some down time here at work, but things are starting to pick up, and I’ll be traveling soon. My home connection isn’t the best, but I should be able to keep up while on the road (most hotels have Wi-Fi these days). There has been a lot brought up, and I don’t have enough time to respond to everything. Since a big question seems to be in regard to “infallibly” interpreting scriptures, I would make a request: there are thousands of verses in the Bible, and the Church claims the authority to infallibly interpret them. Rather than ask for an exhaustive list, could you give me a list of 50 verses infallibly interpreted by the Church (along with their interpretation and when they were infallibly defined)? Any 50 you want to pick. If you can’t come up 50 verses, then I would suggest that your “infallible” authority is leaving room for personal interpretation (I would be very interested to see if Steve Ray’s teaching on Acts 17 makes the list).

Something I do not expect to find on the list is Luke 16:19-31. A caller recently asked Catholic apologist Tim Staples if the rich man in Luke 16:19-31 was in hell or purgatory. Tim explains the general sense of church tradition places the rich man in hell. Tim notes the Catholic Catechism also cites this text a few times as referring to a man who has died in mortal sin, therefore in hell. So, according to Tim, here we see an interpretive church tradition in action. The majority viewpoint of the church throughout the centuries has placed the rich man in hell, not purgatory. The Catechism cites the text with the underlying assumption the man is in hell, not purgatory.

What makes Tim’s answer so interesting is that he cites a fellow Catholic apologist, Patrick Madrid, denying the general sense of the church and the Catechism by placing the rich man in purgatory. Listen to the call for yourself - tquid.sharpens.org/staples_madrid_luke_16.mp3.

Tim lets us know it isn’t that big of deal when his friend Patrick Madrid places the rich man in purgatory. Nope, not that big of a deal at all to hold your own contrary opinion on something the Catechism affirms. Tim is careful to point out the church doesn’t have a definitive position on this text, so Madrid is free to interpret as he wishes. (If you would like to read the full article, you can see it here - aomin.org/aoblog/index.php?itemid=3192)

A quick word about the Sola Scriptura debate between James White and Patrick Madrid; when did Mr. Madrid ask about the cannon? It was during the Q & A period; where time is limited and no new material is supposed to be brought in (I have noticed other Catholic Answers Apologists use this same tactic). I have observed debates in high school, and I have seen people penalized for using this kind of tactic. Not only is Mr. Madrid bringing in new material during the Q & A, but it isn’t even on topic. (A debate on Sola Scriptura begins with the premise that both sides agree on what is accepted scriptures by each party. How we determine what is and is not scripture is a completely different topic.)

In regard to King James Only, you can go to vintage.aomin.org/apologetics.html and get some good information to refute them (as well as info to refute JW’s and Mormons). While I do primarily use the KJV, I have multiple versions on my personal computer (including the Douhey-Rhiems (forgive me if I misspelled it, I am at work)). From here, I use biblelookup.com/, which uses the KJV, NIV, RSV, YLT, ASV and NAS (and can even show verse side by side among the different versions).

Finally, I am willing to stick to this thread and continue the discussion because of JJ59. I did not come here looking to convert anyone, and, quite honestly, I don’t expect that to happen. When I saw JJ59 questioning, I felt I had to speak up, which is why I’m here now. Again, I may not be able to respond daily because of work (I do contract work with the railroads, anywhere in US and Canada). I do believe we all want to serve God to the best of our abilities! Rather than look for converts, I am content to plant and/or water (see 1 Cor 3:6-8). With that in mind, I await your response.
 
those who use it lie and misrepresent against brothers and sisters in Christ

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=306310So then you’re saying that there are not multiple thousands of n-C communities?

Whether it’s 33,000 (possible but questionable) or a mere 1,000, I don’t see what the difference is because the effect is the same and your “crusade” against the higher number is just tilting at windmills, because there is documentation for the thousands of them.

I don’t care specifically how many there are and no one can be sure since there are so many that essentially consider themselves independent of everyone else thus constituting a denomination of one. I would submit that there are probably 1,000 + of just those and either way (as I said) the result is the same.

It not a lie, (though you like to bandy that around), it’s a educated supposition that you have never offered any documentation to refute. Until then, I suggest that you have your homework cut out for you and would be wise to be about it before calling others liars.
 
So then you’re saying that there are not multiple thousands of n-C communities?

Whether it’s 33,000 (possible but questionable) or a mere 1,000, I don’t see what the difference is because the effect is the same and your “crusade” against the higher number is just tilting at windmills, because there is documentation for the thousands of them.

I don’t care specifically how many there are and no one can be sure since there are so many that essentially consider themselves independent of everyone else thus constituting a denomination of one. I would submit that there are probably 1,000 + of just those and either way (as I said) the result is the same.

It not a lie, (though you like to bandy that around), it’s a educated supposition that you have never offered any documentation to refute. Until then, I suggest that you have your homework cut out for you and would be wise to be about it before calling others liars.
It is a filthy misrepresentation.
 
It not a lie, (though you like to bandy that around), it’s a educated supposition that you have never offered any documentation to refute. Until then, I suggest that you have your homework cut out for you and would be wise to be about it before calling others liars.
I did my homework its why I know those who forward it are being deceitful and plus here is one of your own respectable apologists doing the refuting himself.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=4742437&postcount=177
 
I did my homework its why I know those who forward it are being deceitful and plus here is one of your own respectable apologists doing the refuting himself.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=4742437&postcount=177
I’m sorry but giving me a headache with bold, big, red letters does not help your case. :mad:

Did you read the post you are using to ‘refute’ the claim there many, many different non-Catholic christian groups? Like the ending?

“The solution to the “33000” enigma has now been solved. BTW, it is now 40000+ (Jan 2009) and by 2025 it will be 55000 (with the “counting by country” duplicates problem mentioned earlier).”

The questions is what do you do with scripture like Ephesians 4: 4-6

“4There is one body and one Spirit—just as you were called to one hope when you were called— 5one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all”

Emphasis mine.

If there is one faith where does one find it. Not in the many and varied interpretation of the many christian sects. Only in the Catholic church will you find the constant teachings of christianity confirmed, protected and, developed throughout the ages.
 
It is a filthy misrepresentation.
:rotfl:Yeah right. Prove me wrong then Martin.

Show me that there are not multiple thousands of n-C communities. You cannot do it so I submit that it is your own allegation that might better qualify as (how you put it)
…a filthy misrepresentation.
I did my homework its why I know those who forward it are being deceitful and plus here is one of your own respectable apologists doing the refuting himself.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=4742437&postcount=177
:yawn:

Anything to try to indict the Catholic faith, this has been discussed and debated and you just won’t accept that you are whacking a straw man when the documentation supports my own contention that the high end numbers are not as important and the fact that it exceeds any reasonable number and that the result is the very confusion that the New Testament plainly tells us cannot be from the Holy Spirit. 1st Corinthians 14:33
 
So then you’re saying that there are not multiple thousands of n-C communities?
:rotfl:Yeah right. Prove me wrong then Martin.

Show me that there are not multiple thousands of n-C communities. You cannot do it so I submit that it is your own allegation that might better qualify as (how you put it) :yawn:
The person quoted, said this…
protestant theology is very faulty because it has resulted in 30,000 different denominations.

NOT non-C.

More misrepping and deliberate wording…👍
 
The person quoted, said this…
protestant theology is very faulty because it has resulted in 30,000 different denominations.

NOT non-C.

More misrepping and deliberate wording… .👍
No it’s not. What they said is quite true. So long as they all want to play by the errant and unscriptural doctrine of Sola Scripture as the foundation of their theology then he’s spot on correct. Protestant theology is very faulty.
 
If everyone interprets scripture then you have errors in those interpretations everybody can’t be right, as in my example bof the scripture in Revelation about adding to or taking this book I interpretted it to mean the book of Revelations, she said it meant the Bible as the book it was refering to. That is just one scripture and 2 people who took it to mean 2 completely different things. That is the problem I see with Sola Scriptura. That is why we have different sects of Protestant denominations, The baptist don’t all agree so they have several subsects as do pentecostals and so on.
 
If everyone interprets scripture then you have errors in those interpretations everybody can’t be right, as in my example bof the scripture in Revelation about adding to or taking this book I interpretted it to mean the book of Revelations, she said it meant the Bible as the book it was refering to. That is just one scripture and 2 people who took it to mean 2 completely different things. That is the problem I see with Sola Scriptura. That is why we have different sects of Protestant denominations, The baptist don’t all agree so they have several subsects as do pentecostals and so on.
a pre catholic and a pre orthodox reviewed the doctrine of their prospective churches, the Orthodox interpretted the orthodox church to be right and the Catholic interpretted the Catholic to be right…
BOTH relied on their OWN interpretation!
 
a pre catholic and a pre orthodox reviewed the doctrine of their prospective churches, the Orthodox interpretted the orthodox church to be right and the Catholic interpretted the Catholic to be right…
BOTH relied on their OWN interpretation!
Which brings us back to the heart of the issue - Who has been given the authority to make definitive decisions for the Church. Did Jesus establish such an office for His Church.
 
The Protestants have become very unhappy at the mention of 30,000 ‘Bible based’ Protestant Denominations and one has told me that really there are only 28, the divisions beyond that being merely a matter mainly of geographical separation!! However if you consider the possible computations of their various (and all Bible based!) beliefs, it HAS to run into thousands - consider:

Some believe in the Trinity, some deny it (e.g a large proportion of Pentecostalists)
Some believe in ‘once saved always saved’ some absolutely deny this (again Pentecostlists)
Some believe in predestination and the effective absence of free will, others deny this
Some believe in the ‘rapture’, others deny it
Some believe that abortion is intrinsically wrong, others deny it (e.g. a large body of Methodists)
Some believe in the Real Presence (some Lutherans and Anglicans), most regard is as heresy
Some believe in the Communion of the Saints, some believe that the dead ‘sleep’ until the Second Coming
Some regard the office of Bishop to be necessary in the church, others do not
Some regard the Communion Service as being necessary once a month and some once a week, others less frequently
Some believe that infant baptism is valid, others that it is totally invalid
Some believe that total immersion is necessary for a baptism to be valid, others do not
Some believe that there is absolutely no salvation outside of their particular denomination, others do not
Some believe that ‘church’ organisations are unnecessary/invalid, others that they are absolutely necessary
THIS LIST IS NOT EXHAUSTIVE - But consider if one were to pick one from each ‘choice’ above, you would end up with thousands of combinations and that is EXACTLY what has happened. Jesus prayed that ‘they may be one’ and all those who nit-picked their way into founding one more denomination have directly and knowingly ignored the Lord’s stated wish and were unworthy of any following. Luther knew before he died that this would be the result and regretted it.
 
Since a big question seems to be in regard to “infallibly” interpreting scriptures, I would make a request: there are thousands of verses in the Bible, and the Church claims the authority to infallibly interpret them. Rather than ask for an exhaustive list, could you give me a list of 50 verses infallibly interpreted by the Church (along with their interpretation and when they were infallibly defined)? Any 50 you want to pick. If you can’t come up 50 verses, then I would suggest that your “infallible” authority is leaving room for personal interpretation (I would be very interested to see if Steve Ray’s teaching on Acts 17 makes the list).
The Catholic Church doesn’t need to interpret scripture verses individually-she wrote them. This means that, for example, if a person is confused about a verse or verses which relate to salvation, or if they’re wondering where the doctrine of the Trinity came from, they can know that the Church has the answer because she simply always has-or has done the defining for us. We don’t depend on scripture as direct authority. In fact it could be said that if for some reason God chose not to have His revelation recorded in written form, we’d still believe the same. But if someone wants to see the CC use scripture verses as everyone else does, to defend or support her position, the Catechism is replete with them along with other referenced source material. The Church’s infallibility lies simply in her ability to keep the deposit of faith free from error.
 
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