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Tim_Kirchoff
Guest
As (I believe) G. K. Chesterton once put it, how can you expect to see trains regularly unless you live near the tracks?
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inkaneer
Guest
You know, I have heard sola scripturists say that. And everyone of them claimed he was Spirit led and therefore his interpretation was the truth. Take the issue of infant Baptism. Baptists claimed to be Spirit led and say no to it. Lutherans also claim to be Spirit led but they say yes to it. Are all Baptists lying or is it all Lutherans who are lying when they claim to be Spirit led? And how can you tell who is Spirit led, if indeed, any of them are? Let’s face it everytime two sola scripturists disagree on a point of doctrine a new denomination is formed.
Now if you check scripture you will see that the promise of the Spirit to lead into all truth was not made to all of Jesus’ disciples. It was made to only a select few, the eleven Apostles. Jesus had far many more followers than just the eleven Apostles. But It was these eleven Apostles who formed the heirarchy of the church. Later they would ordain deacons [diakoni] and priests [presbuteros] but the Apostles were the only ones led into truth by the spirit. They in turn would lead the priests, deacons and believers into the truth by their teaching. So the claim that every believer is led by the spirit is not supported by scripture. Furthermore, in the sola scripturist denominations the one doing the leading is usually the pastor not the Holy Spirit.
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centurion210
Guest
I disagree with you, David. It was indeed not FINISHED. Without the RESURECTION it would just have been a good man dying for a just cause. So when Jesus said, “it is finished”, he did not actually mean what you just said.
Do you think all those Christians for hundreds of years after the crucifixion would have given their lives so freely if they didn’t believe in the resurrection?
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SteveGC
Guest
My goodness. My goodness. We just can’t seem to make Bible-only’s understand the absurdity of all this.
Ok…here we go.
“personal interpretation”, when the term is used by a Catholic to explain why it’s wrong to a Bible-only, means any person who prays to the Holy Spirit for guidance, to teach them (through Scripture ALONE) truths about faith and morals. In other words, anyone who prayerfully reads Scripture attempting to learn whether or not baptism saves, whether or not repentance of future sins is necessary, whether or not obedience is based on free will or is an automated response to ‘true’ faith. Anyone who does this is erroneously reading Scripture, and lacks the fullness of truth.
The PROBLEM with this personal interpretation is twofold.
- Truth has already been revealed. It was not concealed within Scripture, lying in wait for every john and jane believer to unearth the mystery of salvation by reading along with the Spirit of God. These truths were revealed 2000 years ago, and much of it wasn’t written down. It’s OUT THERE, folks. Yes, it’s essentially now contained within Scripture too, but the Bible is not some reference book we go to, to figure it all out for ourselves (with the Holy Spirit).
- When you hold to this errant theology of personal interpretation, what results is MORE THAN ONE TRUTH. I’ll spare everyone the claim of thousands of denominations that result. The simple reality is you get more than one truth, which is IMPOSSIBLE. ONE Truth can only exist. And again, it’s already out there, in teaching form, not in Book form. The Book is Sacred indeed, and is not contrary to the ONE authentic teaching. But it must be utilized in harmony with Sacred Tradition, which is essentially the undying Spirit-protected succession of human apostolic teaching.
If you get the wrong interpentation then you not spirit filled and you are in error.
makes no sense. For as soon as you cease to recognize that Christ instituted a human teaching authority, and NOT a Bible teaching authority, then through your personal HS-led reading that you do in isolation from the teaching authority, there is NO WAY that you will be able to determine IF your interpretation is wrong or not. The Holy Spirit WILL NOT TELL YOU this. It is not His purpose. He IS certainly within the baptized believer, convicting their hearts to grow in faith and understanding, but NOT a personal interpreter of Scripture used to discover some hidden truths about Christianity. Prayerful Scripture reading leads us to more fully understand the authentic human teaching (Apostolic Tradition), and reveal to us ways in which we can uniquely live our faith, applying our understanding to our lifelong Christian development. All this must be done under the umbrella of authentic Christ-appointed teaching, which does NOT originate in Scripture, yet is obviously fully supported by it.
God Bless
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Pirtek
Guest
This is a sad statement because the church is overflowing with miracles, try reading about PADRE PIO for starters.
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SHW
Guest
Howdy,
Perhaps “when” would be better, but there are two accounts. (Acts 10 and Acts 11) However, he showed absolutely no fear of the Jews.
I understood you, but circumcision is a bit drastic, don’t you think?
The “cross” is a stumbling block to some, too.1 Corinthians 1:23 “but we preach Christ crucified, to the Jews a stumbling block and to the Greeks foolishness,”
Pax,
SHW
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SHW
Guest
Hi,
Actually, the Holy Spirit was given to the eleven apostles in Matthew 28:19-20 “Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Amen.”
John 14:15 “If you love Me, keep My commandments. 16 And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. 18 I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you.”
Here He is speaking to His apostles at the Last Supper. The Holy Spirit is not promised to individuals in order for them to interpret Scripture infallibly. Infallibility is only promised to the Church hierarchy.
2 Peter 1:20 “knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private (individual) interpretation”
2 Peter 3:15-17 “our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, 16 as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures. 17 You therefore, beloved, since you know this beforehand, beware lest you also fall from your own steadfastness, being led away with the error of the wicked;”
If you are not taught by the successors of the Apostles, then you can not be sure that you are interpreting Scripture correctly. You can easily twist Scripture so that it no longer means what the writer intended it to mean and you can also lead others astray by your faulty interpretation.
Acts 8:26-35 "Now an angel of the Lord spoke to Philip, saying, “Arise and go toward the south along the road which goes down from Jerusalem to Gaza.” This is desert. 27 So he arose and went. And behold, a man of Ethiopia, a eunuch of great authority under Candace the queen of the Ethiopians, who had charge of all her treasury, and had come to Jerusalem to worship, 28 was returning. And sitting in his chariot, he was reading Isaiah the prophet. 29 Then the Spirit said to Philip, “Go near and overtake this chariot.”
30 So Philip ran to him, and heard him reading the prophet Isaiah, and said, “Do you understand what you are reading?”
31 And he said, “How can I, unless someone guides me?” And he asked Philip to come up and sit with him. 32 The place in the Scripture which he read was this:
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“ He was led as a sheep to the slaughter;
And as a lamb before its shearer is silent,
So He opened not His mouth.
33 In His humiliation His justice was taken away,
And who will declare His generation?
For His life is taken from the earth.”The eunuch had no clue what the Scripture passage really meant and so he asked Philip to guide him.
2 Timothy 4:3-5 “For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; 4 and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables. 5 But you be watchful in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry.”
Dangerous fables such as “premillennial rapture,” “eternal security,” “faith alone,” and “scripture alone” are taught by persons who privately or individually interpret Scripture for themselves and then they teach these fables to others and lead them astray also.
How are we supposed to learn the correct interpretation of Scripture?
We are supposed to learn from the successors of the Apostles and Paul tells the new bishop Timothy: 2 Timothy 2:2 “And the things that you have heard from me among many witnesses, commit these to faithful men who will be able to teach others also.”
We are supposed to listen to the Church hierarchy (bishops and priests in communion with the Pope and Magisterium) in order to learn the correct interpretation of Scripture.
James 3:1 “My brethren, let not many of you become teachers, knowing that we shall receive a stricter judgment.”
James warns that teachers will be held accountable by God to a stricter standard than other persons because they can easily lead others astray by their teachings!
Pax,
SHW
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juliamajor
Guest
You know it all sounds very well on paper but personal interpretation can be very dangerous thing.How do you think we got JW or Branch Davidians?How much does one’s background, ethnicity, intelligence and ego have to do with it? Can you divorce yourself
from your wants and desires to get the “purest” take on scripture?
from your wants and desires to get the “purest” take on scripture?
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thechristian
Guest
The Apostle Paul clearly taught that we receive the Holy Spirit the moment we believe in Jesus Christ as our Savior. First Corinthians 12:13 declares, “For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink.” Romans 8:9 tells us that if a person does not possess the Holy Spirit, he or she does not belong to Christ: “You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ.” Ephesians 1:13-14 teaches us that the Holy Spirit is the seal of salvation for all those who believe: “Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession-to the praise of his glory.”
These three passages make it clear that the Holy Spirit must be received at the moment of salvation. Paul could not say that we all were baptized by one Spirit and all given one Spirit to drink if not all of the Corinthian believers possessed the Holy Spirit. Romans 8:9 is even stronger. If a person does not have the Spirit, he does not belong to Christ. Therefore, the possession of the Spirit is an identifying factor of the possession of salvation. Further, the Holy Spirit could not be the “seal of salvation” (Ephesians 1:13-14) if He is not received at the moment of salvation. Many scriptures make it abundantly clear that our salvation is secured the moment we receive Christ as Savior.
This discussion is controversial because the ministries of the Holy Spirit are often confused. The receiving / indwelling of the Spirit occurs at the moment of salvation. The filling of the Spirit is an ongoing process in the Christian life. While we hold that the baptism of the Spirit also occurs at the moment of salvation, some Christians do not. This sometimes results in the baptism of the Spirit being confused with “receiving the Spirit” as an act subsequent to salvation. In conclusion, how do we receive the Holy Spirit? We receive the Holy Spirit by simply believing in the Lord Jesus Christ as our Savior (John 3:5-16). When do we receive the Holy Spirit? The Holy Spirit becomes our permanent possession the moment we believe. For clarification on the filling of the Spirit
These three passages make it clear that the Holy Spirit must be received at the moment of salvation. Paul could not say that we all were baptized by one Spirit and all given one Spirit to drink if not all of the Corinthian believers possessed the Holy Spirit. Romans 8:9 is even stronger. If a person does not have the Spirit, he does not belong to Christ. Therefore, the possession of the Spirit is an identifying factor of the possession of salvation. Further, the Holy Spirit could not be the “seal of salvation” (Ephesians 1:13-14) if He is not received at the moment of salvation. Many scriptures make it abundantly clear that our salvation is secured the moment we receive Christ as Savior.
This discussion is controversial because the ministries of the Holy Spirit are often confused. The receiving / indwelling of the Spirit occurs at the moment of salvation. The filling of the Spirit is an ongoing process in the Christian life. While we hold that the baptism of the Spirit also occurs at the moment of salvation, some Christians do not. This sometimes results in the baptism of the Spirit being confused with “receiving the Spirit” as an act subsequent to salvation. In conclusion, how do we receive the Holy Spirit? We receive the Holy Spirit by simply believing in the Lord Jesus Christ as our Savior (John 3:5-16). When do we receive the Holy Spirit? The Holy Spirit becomes our permanent possession the moment we believe. For clarification on the filling of the Spirit
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Jerry_Marino
Guest
Acts 1:8 “But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes upon you, and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, throughout Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.”
i read and read about sacred tradition of the church and to me there is a problem houston. i’ve asked this question on other threads but no one wants to touch with a 10’ pole. what is the primary goal of the Holy Spirit?
this is what i see in the difference of the catechism and the Bible though the catechism has some sound doctrine, the catechism has changed drastically throughout the years.
the Bible’s sole intention is to tell us of Jesus Christ from Genesis to Revelations while the catechism has a different view from the Bible. the Bible leads to Christ as Savior of the all humanity who believe in Him while the catechism teaches that mary is co-redeemer which is not biblical.
Jesus is the only way to the Father, there is no other name to call on, but yet sacred tradition teaches you can call on mary. at the Cross is where you find forgiveness of your sins, not by any kind of works such as baptism or sacraments. Jesus’ work on the Cross as He said, “it is finished.” but the church continues to tie burdens on the faithful with their sacred traditions.
that is why i say the Bible alone. now i read the arguments about how one can’t truly understand all of Scripture and we need someone to guide us through, but we have to be able to discern what is of God and not. the only way one can do that is by reading the Word and living it daily.
there is a new book called the shack, supposedly Christian but far from it. one does not need to read the entire book to come to that conclusion if one stays in the Word. all teachings no matter of what denomination must be held under the microscope of God’s Word.
God bless
i read and read about sacred tradition of the church and to me there is a problem houston. i’ve asked this question on other threads but no one wants to touch with a 10’ pole. what is the primary goal of the Holy Spirit?
this is what i see in the difference of the catechism and the Bible though the catechism has some sound doctrine, the catechism has changed drastically throughout the years.
the Bible’s sole intention is to tell us of Jesus Christ from Genesis to Revelations while the catechism has a different view from the Bible. the Bible leads to Christ as Savior of the all humanity who believe in Him while the catechism teaches that mary is co-redeemer which is not biblical.
Jesus is the only way to the Father, there is no other name to call on, but yet sacred tradition teaches you can call on mary. at the Cross is where you find forgiveness of your sins, not by any kind of works such as baptism or sacraments. Jesus’ work on the Cross as He said, “it is finished.” but the church continues to tie burdens on the faithful with their sacred traditions.
that is why i say the Bible alone. now i read the arguments about how one can’t truly understand all of Scripture and we need someone to guide us through, but we have to be able to discern what is of God and not. the only way one can do that is by reading the Word and living it daily.
there is a new book called the shack, supposedly Christian but far from it. one does not need to read the entire book to come to that conclusion if one stays in the Word. all teachings no matter of what denomination must be held under the microscope of God’s Word.
God bless
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ralphy
Guest
I understand that miracles and healing are still occuring, but are they at the hands of those who were “given the power”- passed down, as you say, by the apostles. God is still able to heal everything, it is not Him that I am questioning. RalphAs (I believe) G. K. Chesterton once put it, how can you expect to see trains regularly unless you live near the tracks?
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centurion210
Guest
***Acts 1:8 “But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes upon you, and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, throughout Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.”
i read and read about sacred tradition of the church and to me there is a problem houston. i’ve asked this question on other threads but no one wants to touch with a 10’ pole. what is the primary goal of the Holy Spirit?***
Jerry,
I wouldn’t presume to try to define the purposes of the Holy Spirit. Some are called to ministry; some to be parents; some to be deacons, etc. etc. I would say He does His will. I think my job is to ask the Holy Spirit to help me discern God’s will for me.
And as a Catholic, I would read the verse you mentioned in the context of the preceding
paragraphs, which clearly say. that Jesus was instructing the apostles; not the multitudes. I would read this with great comfort knowing that my bishop and priests under him have been given that same authority and that I can trust them for my spiritual guidance. I know with reasonable certainty (faith) that this message was properly passed on last 2000 years.
Do you guys (Protestants in general) believe that every phrase in the Bible has a special meaning all of its own?
i read and read about sacred tradition of the church and to me there is a problem houston. i’ve asked this question on other threads but no one wants to touch with a 10’ pole. what is the primary goal of the Holy Spirit?***
Jerry,
I wouldn’t presume to try to define the purposes of the Holy Spirit. Some are called to ministry; some to be parents; some to be deacons, etc. etc. I would say He does His will. I think my job is to ask the Holy Spirit to help me discern God’s will for me.
And as a Catholic, I would read the verse you mentioned in the context of the preceding
paragraphs, which clearly say. that Jesus was instructing the apostles; not the multitudes. I would read this with great comfort knowing that my bishop and priests under him have been given that same authority and that I can trust them for my spiritual guidance. I know with reasonable certainty (faith) that this message was properly passed on last 2000 years.
Do you guys (Protestants in general) believe that every phrase in the Bible has a special meaning all of its own?
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ralphy
Guest
Well, what a joy to read this statement above. I like all the scriptural quotes, the solid word. I do get tired of hearing all this (changeable) traditional discussion. I thank God that I have come out from it, now I stand on the solid word ,whereby I will be judged at the end time. PTL Ralph
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juliamajor
Guest
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
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Jerry_Marino
Guest
acts 1:6 When they had gathered together they asked him, “Lord, are you at this time going to restore the kingdom to Israel?” 7 He answered them, “It is not for you to know the times or seasons that the Father has established by his own authority. 8 But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes upon you, and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, throughout Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.” 9 When he had said this, as they were looking on, he was lifted up, and a cloud took him from their sight. 10 While they were looking intently at the sky as he was going, suddenly two men dressed in white garments stood beside them. 11 They said, "Men of Galilee, why are you standing there looking at the sky? This Jesus who has been taken up from you into heaven will return in the same way as you have seen him going into heaven."
o.k. there it is in context this was right before the Lord ascended to heaven, they asked a question about the kingdom, He answered by telling it is not for them to know but the will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes upon them, this promise He made to them in the Gospel of John and what were they going to do once the Holy Spirit came upon them; BE WITNESSES. that is what the Holy Spirit does to a person who comes to believe in Christ, enables to witness of Him. then after He told them this He ascended then the promise the two men who appeared said that He will return in the same way.
we are to tell the world if you don’t have that urge, like paul says, ‘examine yourselves’
do you want the whole chapter?
my friend the Bible speaks of Jesus Christ who is Lord and Savior.
God bless.
o.k. there it is in context this was right before the Lord ascended to heaven, they asked a question about the kingdom, He answered by telling it is not for them to know but the will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes upon them, this promise He made to them in the Gospel of John and what were they going to do once the Holy Spirit came upon them; BE WITNESSES. that is what the Holy Spirit does to a person who comes to believe in Christ, enables to witness of Him. then after He told them this He ascended then the promise the two men who appeared said that He will return in the same way.
we are to tell the world if you don’t have that urge, like paul says, ‘examine yourselves’
do you want the whole chapter?
my friend the Bible speaks of Jesus Christ who is Lord and Savior.
God bless.
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Ferde_Rombola
Guest
I second the motion.
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ralphy
Guest
This is our mandate, to witness with the gospel in the strength of the Holy Spirit. Ralph
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juliamajor
Guest
Where in the Bible does it say the Bible alone? The Jews believed and still use oral tradition . When God gave the commandments on Horeb the Jewish people believed that they also received an oral tradition-as a guide.When things were unclear, or seemed at odds with each other they relied on tradition.Oral tradition is how the Bible was first formed- by word of mouth and not on paper for centuries- if sacred tradition is unreliable then how can scripture be reliable? How would the sacred author know which version of oral scripture was reliable? Tradition would steer them in the right direction.Whether you like it or not you have a tradition too. You read and study the Bible in a certain way- that’s a tradition from the Reformers. Scripture would be a jangled mess if tradition had not been used…
Oh yeah, there is tradition and TRADITION- not all traditions are created alike.
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fhansen
Guest
The problem is, no matter how you slice it and regardless of whether we like it or not, we cannot discern Gods Word accurately for ourselves-not enough to understand the entire gospel with assurance-and eventually you’ll come to that conclusion. When *I *did I understood that the only options were the Orthodox or Catholic Churches or none at all, again, whether I liked it or not. Fortunately, and to my own surprise, God opened the door so I’d begin to appreciate the Catholic Church prior to reentering after 25 years away from her and ever since (10+ years) my appreciation has continued to grow.
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juliamajor
Guest
That’s still only a pericope. In context can mean-quoting the whole chapter or quoting several chapters- or quoting the whole bible.! Acts was meant to be read in tandem - so by pulling it away from Luke you can lose the context!
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