Sola Scriptura Silence

[Jerry_Marino]

i understand the Gospel maybe i don’t understand the entire Bible but the Gospel, i go it my friend, i understood that i was a sinner heading straight to hell for all of eternity and there was nothing i could do to change the course i was on. then i heard the Gospel of Jesus Christ, that He died while i was still in sin that was His love for me and to the grave He went but death could not hold cause by the POWER of GOD, He resurrected and sits at the right hand of God interceding on my behalf. that is the Gospel of Christ; death and resurrection.

1 Corinthians 15:1 Now I am reminding you, brothers, of the gospel I preached to you, which you indeed received and in which you also stand. 2 Through it you are also being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you, unless you believed in vain. 3 For I handed on to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the scriptures; 4 that he was buried; that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the scriptures; 5 that he appeared to Cephas, then to the Twelve. 6 After that, he appeared to more than five hundred brothers at once, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. 7 After that he appeared to James, then to all the apostles. 8 Last of all, as to one born abnormally, he appeared to me. 9 For I am the least of the apostles, not fit to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. 10 But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace to me has not been ineffective. Indeed, I have toiled harder than all of them; not I, however, but the grace of God (that is) with me. 11 Therefore, whether it be I or they, so we preach and so you believed.

that’s all folks!

God bless.

 

[juliamajor]

i understand the Gospel maybe i don’t understand the entire Bible but the Gospel, i go it my friend, i understood that i was a sinner heading straight to hell for all of eternity and there was nothing i could do to change the course i was on. then i heard the Gospel of Jesus Christ, that He died while i was still in sin that was His love for me and to the grave He went but death could not hold cause by the POWER of GOD, He resurrected and sits at the right hand of God interceding on my behalf. that is the Gospel of Christ; death and resurrection.
Yes, I believe that also- but if you get the rest of the Bible you will understand the NT better. Salvation History just didn’t start with the NT- It starts in Genesis and goes all the way to the end.
1 Corinthians 15:1 Now I am reminding you, brothers, of the gospel I preached to you, which you indeed received and in which you also stand. 2 Through it you are also being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you, unless you believed in vain. 3 For I handed on to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the scriptures; 4 that he was buried; that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the scriptures; 5 that he appeared to Cephas, then to the Twelve. 6 After that, he appeared to more than five hundred brothers at once, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. 7 After that he appeared to James, then to all the apostles. 8 Last of all, as to one born abnormally, he appeared to me. 9 For I am the least of the apostles, not fit to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. 10 But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace to me has not been ineffective. Indeed, I have toiled harder than all of them; not I, however, but the grace of God (that is) with me. 11 Therefore, whether it be I or they, so we preach and so you believed.

that’s all folks!

God bless.

Paul is talking either of OT scripture( already in print!) or oral tradition- scripture as a manuscripted form had a few years to go…Peace and blessings in Christ.

 

[SHW]

This is our mandate, to witness with the gospel in the strength of the Holy Spirit. Ralph

Hi Ralph,

First you have to understand the gospel before you can witness correctly. If you do not understand what the original writers meant by their words, then you cannot possibly be a true witness to the gospel. Teachers are held to a stricter standard because they have the power to mislead others.

James 3:1 “My brethren, let not many of you become teachers, knowing that we shall receive a stricter judgment.”

Scripture warns that many persons will be led astray by false teachers (teachers who corrupt the gospel with their own private interpretations). I documented this fact with Scripture in posts # 158 and # 187.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=5009295&postcount=158

http://forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=5014510&postcount=187

We are supposed to be taught by the successors of the Apostles, and Paul demonstrates this fact when he tells the new bishop Timothy: 2 Timothy 2:2 “And the things that you have heard from me among many witnesses, commit these to faithful men who will be able to teach others also.”

Doctrinal Dispute:
Let’s say that one of the following is true:

1. We are regenerated spiritually (born again) through baptism.
2. Baptism is merely an outward sign to show others your acceptance of Jesus as Savior.

If one person says that we are regenerated spiritually through baptism, and if you or someone else does not believe this, but instead thinks that baptism is merely an outward sign to show that he has accepted Jesus as his Savior; then how is it determined who is correct? Both of you claim that the Holy Spirit guided you to your conclusions as to what to believe. Yet both of you cannot possibly be correct because only one can be true. This is the problem with individual interpretation. The Bible cannot interpret itself. There has to be an authority to decide these disputes on doctrine and Scripture interpretation.

This authority is the Catholic Church. She alone was given this authority in Luke 10:16 and other Scriptures documented in the other posts linked in this post.

The Church (the pope and magisterium in communion with him) is the highest authority. Jesus instructs His Church leaders:

Matthew 18:15-18 “Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother. 16 But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that ‘by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’ 17 And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector. 18 “Assuredly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.”

How is this knowledge of the true gospel of Jesus passed from one generation to another? Through apostolic succession. Paul instructs his new bishop Timothy:

2 Timothy 2:2 “And the things that you have heard from me among many witnesses, commit these to faithful men who will be able to teach others also.”

This is why “Scripture Alone” is a false gospel and it is taught by false teachers. Paul warns: Galatians 1:9 “As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed.”

Pax,
SHW

P.S. Baptism regenerates a soul from spiritual death to spiritual life. It is not merely an outward sign of commitment to Christ.

 

[thechristian]

The Word of God is the only authority for the Christian faith. Traditions are valid only when they are based on Scripture and are in full agreement with Scripture. Traditions that contradict the Bible are not of God and are not a valid aspect of the Christian faith. Sola scriptura is the only way to avoid subjectivity and personal opinion from taking priority over the teachings of the Bible. The essence of sola scriptura is basing your spiritual life on the Bible alone, and rejecting any tradition or teaching that is not in full agreement with the Bible. Second Timothy 2:15 declares, “Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a workman who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the Word of truth.”

Sola scriptura does not nullify the concept of church traditions. Rather, sola scriptura gives us a solid foundation on which to base church traditions. There are many practices, in both Catholic and Protestant churches, that are the result of traditions, not the explicit teaching of Scripture. It is good, and even necessary, for the church to have traditions. Traditions play an important role in clarifying and organizing Christian practice. At the same time, in order for these traditions to be valid, they must not be in disagreement with God’s Word. They must be based on the solid foundation of the teaching of Scripture. The problem with the Roman Catholic Church (and many other churches) is that it bases traditions on traditions which are based on traditions which are based on traditions – often with the initial tradition not being in full harmony with the Scriptures. That is why Christians must always go back to sola scriptura, the authoritative Word of God, as the only solid basis for faith and practice.

 

[JJ59]

Holy Ham Soup!

This is the third time I’ve said it, but we need to organize this thread!

For anyone who’s interested, I’m currently Catholic-inclined, and will be baptized the first chance I get.

Please listen, folks!

 

[graceandglory]

But now for my real question:
One of the obvious flaws Catholics point out in the doctrine of Sola Scriptura (myself included) is that the Bible never says that the Bible alone is our authority.
Then I got thinking: Should the Bible say that? Why?
.
.
So I’m unsure… The matter of authority was not a problem back then, and Scripture was quoted frequently and spoken of as “God-breathed”, the way one would speak of it if they held it as the sole authority. Is the silence of Sola Scriptura meaningful? Are the protestants right??
.

"Lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world".

*"All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age."
Matthew 28:18-20 ***

If Jesus promised to be with us always, and commanded his apostles to go and make disciples of all nations, teaching them to observe all that he commanded, they had to do that without the New Testament. It hadn’t even been written. **“Upon this rock, I’ll build my Kingdom, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.” **Forever and ever it shall stand…

The Church of Christ stood for 1500 years before sola scriptura came along. Sola Scriptura came along with the invention of the printing press. The first Bible was printed in Germany in the 1400s.

The theology of Sola Scriptura, came relatively soon after. Of course people had to have bibles first in order for Sola Scriptura to work. People also had to be literate enough to read scripture in the language it was printed in.

If the bible was first being printed in Germany, what does that do for the faithful who don’t read Latin? In the 1500s, few people could read the language they spoke. Mass literacy didn’t happen until the 1800s.

The Church lasted for 1500 years before Sola Scriptura. The Catholic Church and her tradition is still going on strong. Sola Scriptura brought about a mass exodus from orthodox Christian teaching, and also brought about the fractured nature of denominationalism.

How could it be right?

St. Paul preached to the Romans. His understanding was that the word would be preached. The word would be listened to, and the word would be responded to. Our faith does not rest on the ability to read, understand, and interpret the scriptures ourselves.

---

13* For, “every one who calls upon the name of the Lord will be saved.” 14 But how are men to call upon him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without a preacher? 15* And how can men preach unless they are sent? As it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who preach good news!”*** 16* But they have not all obeyed the gospel; for Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed what he has heard from us?” 17 So **faith comes from what is heard, and what is heard comes by the preaching of Christ.
**

St. Paul said, “Faith comes from what is heard, and what is heard comes by the preaching of Christ.”

 

[SteveGC]

The Word of God is the only authority for the Christian faith. Traditions are valid only when they are based on Scripture and are in full agreement with Scripture. Traditions that contradict the Bible are not of God and are not a valid aspect of the Christian faith. Sola scriptura is the only way to avoid subjectivity and personal opinion from taking priority over the teachings of the Bible. The essence of sola scriptura is basing your spiritual life on the Bible alone, and rejecting any tradition or teaching that is not in full agreement with the Bible. Second Timothy 2:15 declares, “Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a workman who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the Word of truth.”

Sola scriptura does not nullify the concept of church traditions. Rather, sola scriptura gives us a solid foundation on which to base church traditions. There are many practices, in both Catholic and Protestant churches, that are the result of traditions, not the explicit teaching of Scripture. It is good, and even necessary, for the church to have traditions. Traditions play an important role in clarifying and organizing Christian practice. At the same time, in order for these traditions to be valid, they must not be in disagreement with God’s Word. They must be based on the solid foundation of the teaching of Scripture. The problem with the Roman Catholic Church (and many other churches) is that it bases traditions on traditions which are based on traditions which are based on traditions – often with the initial tradition not being in full harmony with the Scriptures. That is why Christians must always go back to sola scriptura, the authoritative Word of God, as the only solid basis for faith and practice.

A valiant effort here…but unfortunately an erroneous view of Tradition.

Again, “Word of God” is not solely the Bible…it IS GOD, who is NOT limited to the written word. It helps to stop thinking of “Word” as as literally words on paper. The entire universe was created with the WORD, and this was not text in a book. This is why limiting our understanding of Word of God can be unintentionally limiting God.

Tradition is not “subject” to Scripture to authenticate it. Tradition just IS, as much as Scripture just IS. They both simultaneously come from God. They are harmonious, and are unified under the Church of Christ. Scripture only authenticates a teaching inasmuch as Scripture is understood from the Apostolic Tradition. They are inseparable. What is meant by this is, there is One authentic Tradition, which is the gold standard of all others. It is truly apostolic, it needs no authentication from Scripture, for Scripture (the New Testament) is a part of it. It’s like trying to authenticate a child by going to her sister. No, you go to their mother and father. Tradition and Scripture are the children, Christ and His Church are the parents who we go to. By this, we mean that people must recognize that God entrusted humans, OT prophets and NT apostles, to deliver His message. He wanted it delivered orally and scripturally. They are equally important, mutually supportive, and inseparable.

The human part didn’t suddenly become unimportant simply because much of the teaching was written down. It was written down to preserve the teachings, for God understood in our mortality the difficulty in maintaining the full teachings from generation to generation. But this didn’t mean He felt humans were no longer necessary. On the contrary, the humans were inspired FIRST, and are incipient to scripture, and are in fact, necessary to accompany scripture throughout the ages, to ensure it is properly interpreted. The human inspiration is incredibly significant and part of God’s plan for salvation. We just have to align ourselves with these inspired humans. God has preserved them through the gift of ordination (laying on of hands) which we witness briefly in Scripture as the first apostles initiate the lifelong lineage required to accompany The Church until Christ comes again for Her.

God Bless

 

[thechristian]

You can dance around and avoid the truth all you want…but the truth is that scripture leeds
all believers in faith to the true knowledge and understanding of God as much as we can understand it in this fleshly tent. Only when we put on our spirtural body…will the full glory of God be revealed.

God loves you…God bless

david

 

[orignal]

The Word of God is the only authority for the Christian faith. Traditions are valid only when they are based on Scripture and are in full agreement with Scripture. Traditions that contradict the Bible are not of God and are not a valid aspect of the Christian faith. Sola scriptura is the only way to avoid subjectivity and personal opinion from taking priority over the teachings of the Bible. The essence of sola scriptura is basing your spiritual life on the Bible alone, and rejecting any tradition or teaching that is not in full agreement with the Bible. Second Timothy 2:15 declares, “Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a workman who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the Word of truth.”

Sola scriptura does not nullify the concept of church traditions. Rather, sola scriptura gives us a solid foundation on which to base church traditions. There are many practices, in both Catholic and Protestant churches, that are the result of traditions, not the explicit teaching of Scripture. It is good, and even necessary, for the church to have traditions. Traditions play an important role in clarifying and organizing Christian practice. At the same time, in order for these traditions to be valid, they must not be in disagreement with God’s Word. They must be based on the solid foundation of the teaching of Scripture. The problem with the Roman Catholic Church (and many other churches) is that it bases traditions on traditions which are based on traditions which are based on traditions – often with the initial tradition not being in full harmony with the Scriptures. That is why Christians must always go back to sola scriptura, the authoritative Word of God, as the only solid basis for faith and practice.

If as you said, sola scriptura gave you a “solid foundation” on which to base your traditions than it doesn’t follow you would have 200 unique denominations spring fourth since the reformation let alone 30,000+ and growing. If that many denominations is an acceptable consequence to this “solid foundation” than something somewhere must be skewed – perhaps the definitions of both terms ‘solid’ & ‘foundation’ need to be re-defined in the dictionary to validate this new criteria.

Also, your statement presupposes the Catholic Church’s Teachings / Tradition is somehow not in accord with the Word of God. One the contrary, I find it really hard to believe that a Church that has been through so much: scandals of un-faithful priests, attacks from within by those with dissident ideas, attacks from with out by all other denominations, society, pop-culture, ect. has not gone the way of other church’s that continually split, dissolve, change… if it were not ENTIRELY adherent to the Word of God, guided by the Holy Spirit, preserved in Truth. Any institution that can last that long with out bending/changing/adapting to societal pressure, reformers, fads must indeed have the attributes associated with a “solid foundation”.

 

[SteveGC]

You can dance around and avoid the truth all you want…but the truth is that scripture leeds
all believers in faith to the true knowledge and understanding of God as much as we can understand it in this fleshly tent. Only when we put on our spirtural body…will the full glory of God be revealed.

God loves you…God bless

david

I agree. When we pass from this earth, the FULL Glory of God will be revealed. But God’s plan for salvation is not waiting behind that door for us to ‘finally see’. The plan for salvation is here and now. But, to claim that it’s wrapped up in Scripture, and the HS will lead us all to the true knowledge of it is a flat denial of the fact that it is not shown in reality to be so. What is reality is the manifestation of hundreds of different plans of salvation for hundreds of groups of Bible-only’s, all reading it under the “leadership” of the HS. We are indeed limited, “fleshly tented” beings, but God does NOT want us to understand His salvific plan “in our own time”. It’s been revealed. It’s been known for 2000 years. It’s NOT based on our maturity in the faith. It’s not left to the idea that ‘well, when you have enough faith, you’ll know God’s plan for salvation’. God doesn’t want that at all. Your maturity in the faith is not a prerequisite for access to The Truth. Your maturity in the faith is a prerequisite for eternal life. We don’t just keep seeking for what God intends for us to be saved, hoping we don’t perish before we figure it out. That makes no sense. If a teenager seeks The Truth, they go to The Church for it. It’s there waiting for them. They don’t have to wait perhaps a lifetime to finally uncover salvific essentials. That’s not how it works. They (and all of us) spend a lifetime *perfecting *it, but not trying to unearth it from the pages of Scripture.

 

[thechristian]

Exactly how many hundreds is that? The bible teaches only one way to salvation, and that is thru faith in christ jesus as your own personal lord and savior…for only the saved can say “Jesus is lord” and absolutely mean it. It’s not about denominations…its not about the RCC, its about christ.

God loves you…god bless

 

[ralphy]

Hi Ralph,

First you have to understand the gospel before you can witness correctly. If you do not understand what the original writers meant by their words, then you cannot possibly be a true witness to the gospel. Teachers are held to a stricter standard because they have the power to mislead others.

James 3:1 “My brethren, let not many of you become teachers, knowing that we shall receive a stricter judgment.”

Scripture warns that many persons will be led astray by false teachers (teachers who corrupt the gospel with their own private interpretations). I documented this fact with Scripture in posts # 158 and # 187.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=5009295&postcount=158

http://forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=5014510&postcount=187

We are supposed to be taught by the successors of the Apostles, and Paul demonstrates this fact when he tells the new bishop Timothy: 2 Timothy 2:2 “And the things that you have heard from me among many witnesses, commit these to faithful men who will be able to teach others also.”

Doctrinal Dispute:
Let’s say that one of the following is true:

1. We are regenerated spiritually (born again) through baptism.
2. Baptism is merely an outward sign to show others your acceptance of Jesus as Savior.

If one person says that we are regenerated spiritually through baptism, and if you or someone else does not believe this, but instead thinks that baptism is merely an outward sign to show that he has accepted Jesus as his Savior; then how is it determined who is correct? Both of you claim that the Holy Spirit guided you to your conclusions as to what to believe. Yet both of you cannot possibly be correct because only one can be true. This is the problem with individual interpretation. The Bible cannot interpret itself. There has to be an authority to decide these disputes on doctrine and Scripture interpretation.

This authority is the Catholic Church. She alone was given this authority in Luke 10:16 and other Scriptures documented in the other posts linked in this post.

The Church (the pope and magisterium in communion with him) is the highest authority. Jesus instructs His Church leaders:

Matthew 18:15-18 “Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother. 16 But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that ‘by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’ 17 And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector. 18 “Assuredly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.”

How is this knowledge of the true gospel of Jesus passed from one generation to another? Through apostolic succession. Paul instructs his new bishop Timothy:

2 Timothy 2:2 “And the things that you have heard from me among many witnesses, commit these to faithful men who will be able to teach others also.”

This is why “Scripture Alone” is a false gospel and it is taught by false teachers. Paul warns: Galatians 1:9 “As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed.”

Pax,
SHW

P.S. Baptism regenerates a soul from spiritual death to spiritual life. It is not merely an outward sign of commitment to Christ.

The way I see it, the Roman catholic church falls under Gal 1:9, they certainly preach another gospel contrary to scripture, salvation through works is one of the biggest faults. When Eph 2:8,9 is ignored Ralph

 

[inkaneer]

The Word of God is the only authority for the Christian faith. Traditions are valid only when they are based on Scripture and are in full agreement with Scripture. Traditions that contradict the Bible are not of God and are not a valid aspect of the Christian faith. Sola scriptura is the only way to avoid subjectivity and personal opinion from taking priority over the teachings of the Bible. The essence of sola scriptura is basing your spiritual life on the Bible alone, and rejecting any tradition or teaching that is not in full agreement with the Bible. Second Timothy 2:15 declares, “Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a workman who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the Word of truth.”

Sola scriptura does not nullify the concept of church traditions. Rather, sola scriptura gives us a solid foundation on which to base church traditions. There are many practices, in both Catholic and Protestant churches, that are the result of traditions, not the explicit teaching of Scripture. It is good, and even necessary, for the church to have traditions. Traditions play an important role in clarifying and organizing Christian practice. At the same time, in order for these traditions to be valid, they must not be in disagreement with God’s Word. They must be based on the solid foundation of the teaching of Scripture. The problem with the Roman Catholic Church (and many other churches) is that it bases traditions on traditions which are based on traditions which are based on traditions – often with the initial tradition not being in full harmony with the Scriptures. That is why Christians must always go back to sola scriptura, the authoritative Word of God, as the only solid basis for faith and practice.

The word of God is not limited to scripture. St. Paul told the Thessalonians and everybody else to hold on to the traditions you have received from us either by word of mouth or by letter [2 Thess 2:15] This is the wooden stake in the heart of sola scriptura. It is the death knell of sola scriptura. And let us be clear about what we speak of when we say the “T” word. There are two traditions. With a small ‘t" the word tradition refers to customs, practices etc. These were the traditions referred to by Jesus in Mark 7:8. However, Tradition [with a capital “T”] refers to Apostolic Tradition otherwise known as Oral Tradition and refers to the oral teaching of the Apostles. Here “Tradition” means teaching. A lot of this Oral Tradition is present in protestantism. For instance worship on Sunday rather than the Jewish Sabbath and infant baptism. Neither of these are commanded nor forbidden by the scriptures. Furthermore this emphasis on the written word by protestantism is inherently not scriptural. Jesus was certainly not a sola scripturist. For instance in Matthew 23:2 Jesus says, "The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses’ seat;" Try to find any reference to “Moses seat” in the OT. You won’t find any. The term only exists in the Jewish Oral Tradition to designate a seat or chair of authority. Furthermore, the Apostle Paul did not tell Timothy to write anything in a book. Instead we read in (2 Tim. 2:2), “What you have heard from me before many witnesses entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also”. In this passage he refers to the first four generations of apostolic succession—his own generation, Timothy’s generation, the generation Timothy will teach, and the generation they in turn will teach. No sola scriptura there, in fact, no scriptura at all. Jesus never commanded any of the Apostles to write anything either. In Matthew 28:19-20 Jesus gives the church itrs marching orders by stating, “19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age.” Nothing there about writing a book. Furthermore try to find anyone in the first 15 centuries of the church that tauhght sola scriptura. You won’t find any. Sola scriptura is one of those “traditions of man” that Jesus spoke of in Mark 7:8.

 

[Jerry_Marino]

Paul is talking either of OT scripture( already in print!) or oral tradition- scripture as a manuscripted form had a few years to go…Peace and blessings in Christ.

it says Scripture

 

[ralphy]

Exactly how many hundreds is that? The bible teaches only one way to salvation, and that is thru faith in christ jesus as your own personal lord and savior…for only the saved can say “Jesus is lord” and absolutely mean it. It’s not about denominations…its not about the RCC, its about christ.

God loves you…god bless

I believe that my friend with all my heart. I received the Lord as my personal Savior in 1977 and I praise Him everyday…Ralph

 

[ralphy]

The word of God is not limited to scripture. St. Paul told the Thessalonians and everybody else to hold on to the traditions you have received from us either by word of mouth or by letter [2 Thess 2:15] This is the wooden stake in the heart of sola scriptura. It is the death knell of sola scriptura. And let us be clear about what we speak of when we say the “T” word. There are two traditions. With a small ‘t" the word tradition refers to customs, practices etc. These were the traditions referred to by Jesus in Mark 7:8. However, Tradition [with a capital “T”] refers to Apostolic Tradition otherwise known as Oral Tradition and refers to the oral teaching of the Apostles. Here “Tradition” means teaching. A lot of this Oral Tradition is present in protestantism. For instance worship on Sunday rather than the Jewish Sabbath and infant baptism. Neither of these are commanded nor forbidden by the scriptures. Furthermore this emphasis on the written word by protestantism is inherently not scriptural. Jesus was certainly not a sola scripturist. For instance in Matthew 23:2 Jesus says, "The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses’ seat;" Try to find any reference to “Moses seat” in the OT. You won’t find any. The term only exists in the Jewish Oral Tradition to designate a seat or chair of authority. Furthermore, the Apostle Paul did not tell Timothy to write anything in a book. Instead we read in (2 Tim. 2:2), “What you have heard from me before many witnesses entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also”. In this passage he refers to the first four generations of apostolic succession—his own generation, Timothy’s generation, the generation Timothy will teach, and the generation they in turn will teach. No sola scriptura there, in fact, no scriptura at all. Jesus never commanded any of the Apostles to write anything either. In Matthew 28:19-20 Jesus gives the church itrs marching orders by stating, “19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age.” Nothing there about writing a book. Furthermore try to find anyone in the first 15 centuries of the church that tauhght sola scriptura. You won’t find any. Sola scriptura is one of those “traditions of man” that Jesus spoke of in Mark 7:8.

Just in case you did not notice, Math 28:19 says “go and make disciples of all nations”, then after they became disciples, they were baptised, not befor. Ralph

 

[Tim_Kirchoff]

it says Scripture

And to what “Scripture” does it refer? Paul certainly wasn’t referring to *his own *writings- how egotisical would that be?- but to the Old Testament (which from his view may well have included the deuterocanonicals )

It is totally irrational to take any New Testament claims about Scripture, where it invariably refers to the Old Testament, and treat it as though it is applicable to Scripture as a whole. The only possible exception I could imagine would be when Peter speaks of those who misinterpret Paul’s letters to their own desctruction (or something like that).

At any rate, if Sola Scriptura is the “true Christian” view, what historical evidence is there for early Christians believing it? If it was what Jesus, Peter, and Paul taught, then surely someone in that time period must have heard it, learned it, and possibly spoke or wrote about it. Can you show us any evidence of this happening?

 

[Tim_Kirchoff]

Holy Ham Soup!

This is the third time I’ve said it, but we need to organize this thread!

For anyone who’s interested, I’m currently Catholic-inclined, and will be baptized the first chance I get.

Please listen, folks!

Well, most apologetics threads tend to roam a bit, in my experience. But if you want this thread organized, why don’t you propose something more specific to discuss, such as Scriptural evidence for or against Sola Scriptura, or historcial evidence?

 

[Jerry_Marino]

And to what “Scripture” does it refer? Paul certainly wasn’t referring to *his own *writings- how egotisical would that be?- but to the Old Testament (which from his view may well have included the deuterocanonicals )

It is totally irrational to take any New Testament claims about Scripture, where it invariably refers to the Old Testament, and treat it as though it is applicable to Scripture as a whole. The only possible exception I could imagine would be when Peter speaks of those who misinterpret Paul’s letters to their own desctruction (or something like that).

At any rate, if Sola Scriptura is the “true Christian” view, what historical evidence is there for early Christians believing it? If it was what Jesus, Peter, and Paul taught, then surely someone in that time period must have heard it, learned it, and possibly spoke or wrote about it. Can you show us any evidence of this happening?

oh well:shrug:

 

[juliamajor]

it says Scripture

and- your point?