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Jerry_Marino
Guest
that the taught from scripture that’s all nothing else
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juliamajor
Guest
Again OT or NT?
Since NT was not written yet it had to be OT- scripture implies writing, though we use oral scripture as a very loose term which is actually tradition since only people’s word of mouth kept the Way going in lieu of written text.Paul’s writings, being the earliest of written texts in the 40’s a.d. still leaves about 6-7 yrs without any written form of Christ’s Gospel.So who passed it on and by what means? Oral traditions. the Jews used in successfully for centuries and it was very much a part of their cultural life -Jewish Christians would have used it.Besides would written documents be of such great import when the Second coming was thought to be imminent?
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Jerry_Marino
Guest
julie, julie, julie di you love me?
new testament was not written, girlfriend.
God bless you
new testament was not written, girlfriend.
God bless you
T
Tim_Kirchoff
Guest
But they didn’t teach exclusively from Scripture. It’s not the “Scriptura” to which the Catholic Church objects, but the “sola”
Take the time to look at some official Church documents. They are hardly lacking in Scriptural citations.
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Jerry_Marino
Guest
the foundation of our faith is in Scripture outside of Scripture the house will fall
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Tim_Kirchoff
Guest
J
juliamajor
Guest
So it was transmitted orally -just like I thought!
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SHW
Guest
Ephesians 2:8-9 “For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.”
Hi Ralph,
True. However, you forgot to put the next verse:
“10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.”
We are created for good works and we “must” walk in them if we desire to inherit eternal life. “Should” is not optional; it is a command!
James 2:24 “You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.”
It is important to “get” this very important point. We are judged by our deeds/works on Judgment Day. This is why the Catholic Church insists on good works.
Romans 2:5-8 “But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: 7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; 8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath,”
Matthew 16:27 “For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works.”
Revelation 20:11-13 “Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.”
Matthew 25:31-46 "When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; 36 I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.’
37 “Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink? 38 When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? 39 Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ 40 And the King will answer and say to them, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.’
41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; 43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’
44 “Then they also will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’ 45 Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
James 2:24 “You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.”
2 Timothy 4:1-4 “I charge you therefore before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, who will judge the living and the dead at His appearing and His kingdom: 2 Preach the word! Be ready in season and out of season. Convince, rebuke, exhort, with all longsuffering and teaching. 3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; 4 and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables.”
Pax,
SHW
J
JJ59
Guest
Yeah, I gave that a shot in my first two posts, suggesting we discuss the canon of scripture. No such luck, and not much more now.Well, most apologetics threads tend to roam a bit, in my experience. But if you want this thread organized, why don’t you propose something more specific to discuss, such as Scriptural evidence for or against Sola Scriptura, or historcial evidence?
God Bless.
J
JohnSeventeen17
Guest
I appreciate your sincerity in searching for the truth.
Ask yourself, What does scripture say about itself?.. Infallibile, Tested, God-Breathed, Truth etc etc. So knowing that it is Flawless we know that anything or anyone(Including Angels from Heaven) stating anything to the contrary is wrong/a lie. What does it say about Doctrines or traditions of Man?.. Pray and search through the Word of Truth. I pray that you are sanctified in the Truth, Gods word is Truth. John 17:17
God will not keep the truth from those who humble themselves before him and diligently seek him…
Here are some helpful passages…
In Mark 7:8-13 and Matthew 15:2- I believe clearly states the fallability of tradition, but “EVERY Word of GOD is tested”(Proverbs 30:5), also 1Peter 20-21 "But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scriture is a matter of one’s own interpretation, for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God. 1 John 1:1-4 and 2Timothy 3:16 “All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.” Finally 1 John 5:9- "If we receive the testimony of men, the testimony of God is greater; for the testimony of God is this, that He has testified concerning his Son… thru verse 13… 2 Timothy 2: 14-16
God Always tells us What is Of most Importance and True(Namely the Gospel found in 1Cor 15:1-…
God Bless You as You Seek Truth…
Believe … Matthew 4:4 “It is written, man does not live on bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God”…
Ask yourself, What does scripture say about itself?.. Infallibile, Tested, God-Breathed, Truth etc etc. So knowing that it is Flawless we know that anything or anyone(Including Angels from Heaven) stating anything to the contrary is wrong/a lie. What does it say about Doctrines or traditions of Man?.. Pray and search through the Word of Truth. I pray that you are sanctified in the Truth, Gods word is Truth. John 17:17
God will not keep the truth from those who humble themselves before him and diligently seek him…
Here are some helpful passages…
In Mark 7:8-13 and Matthew 15:2- I believe clearly states the fallability of tradition, but “EVERY Word of GOD is tested”(Proverbs 30:5), also 1Peter 20-21 "But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scriture is a matter of one’s own interpretation, for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God. 1 John 1:1-4 and 2Timothy 3:16 “All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.” Finally 1 John 5:9- "If we receive the testimony of men, the testimony of God is greater; for the testimony of God is this, that He has testified concerning his Son… thru verse 13… 2 Timothy 2: 14-16
God Always tells us What is Of most Importance and True(Namely the Gospel found in 1Cor 15:1-…
God Bless You as You Seek Truth…
Believe … Matthew 4:4 “It is written, man does not live on bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God”…
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Benadam
Guest
In this passage Jesus teaches that the scriptures are a testimony about himself but not Himself.
In this passage Jesus calls the people Saul is persecuting** ‘Me’.**
Jesus teaches that the scriptures also testify to the life of the faithfull by distinguishing them as Himself.
What has more authority? The testimony or those the testimony testifies to?
That being so, the primary expression of the Word of God on earth is not the scriptures only, nor only the oral tradition that continues, but the life of the Church in the world from which both find their source.
Jesus chose to give Himself to the world through His Church
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JohnSeventeen17
Guest
If by works? How many?.. Gods word CLEARLY states saved by grace, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness(already in righteousness), but according to HIS MERCY, BY THE WASHING OF REGENERATION and RENEWING BY THE HOLY SPIRIT, whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that BEING JUSTIFIED BY HIS GRACE we would be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. This is a trustworthy statement; and concerning these things I want you to speak confidently, to that those who HAVE BELIEVED(PAST TENSE) GOD will be careful to engage in good deeds. These things are good and profitable for men.(TiTUS 3:5-8) HOW MANY WORKS DID THE CRIMINAL THAT DIED ON THE CROSS NEXT TO JESUS DO?, When Jesus promised him he would be with him in paradise today?.. YES WE ARE TO DO GOOD DEEDS, but they are not necessary for salvation, sanctification yes…Why don’t you understand Gods’ word, do you not have the Holy Spirit?.. And AGAIN Romans 3:27-28 " Where then is boasting? It is EXCLUDED. By what kind of law? OF works? NO, BUT BY A LAW OF FAITH!!! FOR WE MAINTAIN THAT A MAN IS JUSTIFIED BY FAITH APART FROM WORKS OF THE LAW!!!Ephesians 2:8-9 “For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.”
Hi Ralph,
True. However, you forgot to put the next versewhich has nothing to do with Salvation, and everything to do with rewards)
“10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.”
We are created for good works and we “must” walk in them if we desire to inherit eternal life. “Should” is not optional; it is a command! IF I COMMAND I SAY MUST NOT SHOULD stop Twisting GODS word or he promises you will have plagues added to your life…
James 2:24 “You see that a man is justified(Meaning to demonstate as a result of your faith, to prove your faith, however not a disqualifier of Salvation, but of Rewards) by works and not by faith alone.” Justified
It is important to “get” this very important point. We are judged by our deeds/works on Judgment Day. This is why the Catholic Church insists on good works. JOHN 5:24 says "TRULY, truly, I say to you, he who hears MY word, and BELIEVES HIM who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgement, but has passed out of death into life. THIS IS PAST TENSE ALSO… GOD Did the work, we are incapable of helping ourselves or Jesus would not have died and rose again in our place…
Romans 2:5-8 “But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: 7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; 8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath,” TO OBEY THE TRUTH IS TO FULFILL HIS COMMANDEMENT "TO BELIEVE IN HIS SON
Matthew 16:27 “For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works.” REWARDS, NOT SALVATION…
Revelation 20:11-13 “Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.”
James 2:24 “You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.”
2 Timothy 4:1-4 “I charge you therefore before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, who will judge the living and the dead at His appearing and His kingdom: 2 Preach the word! Be ready in season and out of season. Convince, rebuke, exhort, with all longsuffering and teaching. 3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; 4 and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables.”
Pax,
SHW
In conclusion… In case you need yet more clarification Talking Salvation Here, not other subjects…Galatians 2:16 nevertheless knowing that a man is NOT JUSTIFIED BY THE WORKS OF THE LAW but THROUGH FAITH IN JESUS CHRIST, even we have believed Christ Jesus, so that we may be JUSTIFIED by FAITH in CHRIST and not by the works of the law;since by the works of the law, No flesh shall be justified. verse 21 “I DO NOT NULLIFY THE GRACE OF GOD, FOR IF RIGHTEOUSNESS COMES THROUGH THE LAW, THEN CHRIST DIED NEEDLESSLY.”
IT IS FINISHED BELIEVE AND RECEIVE ETERNAL LIFE… JUST BELIEVE and the Holy Spirit will take care of the rest.
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Randy_Carson
Guest
A quick word about the sola scriptura debate between Patrick Madrid and James White: when did “Dr.” White ever provide a definitive verse that proves that the Bible teaches sola scriptura?
Never!
“Dr.” White knows this, Patrick Madrid knows this, and anyone who has listened to the debate or read the transcript knows this.
1 Timothy 3:16-17 does not refer to the formal sufficiency of scripture.
The Bible simply does not teach this man-made doctrine; thus, sola scriptura is self-refuting.
Hope this helps. :tiphat:
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Randy_Carson
Guest
Lest anyone be led astray by the misinformation provided by JohnSeventeen17 above, I direct your attention to the following:
Is Salvation an Act or a Process?
By Kenneth J. Howell
catholic.com/thisrock/2005/0502sbs.asp
CATHOLIC: It seems that many non-Catholics in America misunderstand the Catholic doctrine of salvation. They think that the Church teaches salvation by works as if Catholics were trying to earn their way to heaven. This frustrates knowledgeable Catholics because we know that the Church does not teach salvation by our own good works.
…read on, friends, read on…
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Ferde_Rombola
Guest
No it doesn’t. Paul’s word appears to say that. Paul isn’t God. Please read Matthew 25:31-46 and tell me what the Lord Jesus says about faith.
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inkaneer
Guest
And scripture is based on Apostolic Tradition. Those writings deemed to be inspired by those Catholic bishops in the late fourth century were those writings that supported the Oral Tradition of the Church. That is why we claim the Bible is a Catholic book. We wrote it, we edited it and we printed it. There were no protestants around for over one and one half millenia. That is 1500 years of no Johnny come lately protestants. It is also 1500 years of no sola scriptura. Sola scriptura is a tradition of man and the man is Martin Luther.
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Ferde_Rombola
Guest
There are many thousands of people like you, who have abandoned organized religion and have set themselves up as the final arbiters of the Gospel message. I call it the “Me 'n Jesus Movement.” All of you and many more Chrustians in the protestant world humble themselves before God and diligently seek Him. They all believe the Holy Spirit is speaking to them, yet come to many different conclusions about the meaning of Scripture. Which of you is right and how do you know who is right?
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Saint_Sinner
Guest
Where is that in the Bible? Please provide a clear text with your interpretation.
Thanks. B-)
S
Saint_Sinner
Guest
I accepted Jesus as my personal Savior and was baptized at age 16. I was led as an adult to the Catholic church to have the fullness of His grace, the assurance of Truth, and I praise Him everyday. What am I missing?
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Saint_Sinner
Guest
1 Peter 3:18-22 (English Standard Version)
18For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit, 19in which he went and proclaimed[d] to the spirits in prison, 20because they formerly did not obey, when God’s patience waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through water. 21Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers having been subjected to him.
Why did Paul say that baptism now saves you?
- Status