Sola Scriptura - unifier?

[mcq72]

Actually we DO need to capitalize “tradition” at times, to differentiate that one percent of traditions defined by the Magisterium as authoritative - as Tradition.

Thank you…thoughtful post.

I have now learned that only 1% of tradition is “authoritative”, with capital t, and from another poster that really only 7 verses of Sacred Scripture are authoritatively defined, interpreted by same magisterium. I am wondering what the 1 and 7 are , that they are fine enough to strain the gnats that are Orthodoxy and Protestantism. How could we divided over such a small portion, percentage of writ and tradition ?

 

[mcq72]

The Bible mentions the Holy Spirit, but the Bible’s not at all clear as to part of the Holy Trinity, equal to the Father and Son.

Yet it is interesting that holy men believed from the beginning, defended it upon arrival of an imposter, (else how would they know it was an imposter if they did not know the real thing?) using hermeneutics and proper exegesis of Sacred Scripture. These holy men have given us nice descriptive tools and a tidy catechism on the matter, but the same fire in the belly, from Holy Spirit truth on this matter was there before these holy men, and with these men, as sure as it would have been thereafter, even to us when defending this truth.

So I am with you in honoring and appreciating the battles won before us, but I think Antnanasius would not like us to say the bible was not clear on the matter, that “holy men” can clear it up, for it was supposed holy men that fogged things up, and he clearly used the bible to clear the air.

Kind of like the rosary and Marion doctrine. I would think a firey and reverence and awe would be had for Mary from the very beginning (1st C ) and during, and after the development and arrival of the rosary, and its prayers and contemplations. Yes a nice tool, catechesis, to focus on what already is in the heart of the story, even in Scripture. I would not say Scripture was not clear on the matter, therefore a magisterium/ tradition made it clear, therefore magisterium,tradition is normative . Don’t want to make the Holy Spirit in us and His Scripture insufficient within the Body of Christ.

Simply put, if one wrongly divides the Word, as the Arians clearly did, you then stand for rightly dividing the Word, as Antnanasius clearly did, as we clearly do.

 

[TULIPed]

It sure seemed like you were trying to say The Catholic Church has no one holding her accountable because no one has access.

I was writing this in the context of the cause and ultimate effect of the Reformation. Back then, common folk didn’t have access to the Bible. They couldn’t read Latin, and there just weren’t any laying around. I would argue that the Reformation - and the doctrine of Sola Scriptura and the focus on scripture that it encouraged - ended up being good for everyone. After all, all things work for good for those in Christ according to his purpose, no?

As for Luther’s motivations - I agree with you that Luther was no different than any of us - a sinful man with as many hang ups as I have. How we see villains and hero’s is always interesting to ponder. I would say that I think you’d find Eric Metaxas’ biography of Luther interesting. I also think that he deserves the benefit of the doubt - at least before you really get to know him

 

[MT1926]

I was writing this in the context of the cause and ultimate effect of the Reformation. Back then, common folk didn’t have access to the Bible.

From what I’ve read this is an illusion. Just do a simple google search. Even Wikipedia states that the Bible was already translated into the vernacular centuries before the Reformation.

As for the myths about the laity not able to get near a Bible Here’s a pretty good article touching on this, go about half way down if you don’t want to read the whole thing…

Catholics and the Bible | Catholic Answers Magazine

After all, all things work for good for those in Christ according to his purpose, no?

I don’t know where you are going with this? Christ gave us free will, just because we think things are working out for the good for ourselves doesn’t necessarily mean it’s according to Christ’s will.

Now don’t get me wrong here, I do agree that more people read the Bible now a days, so yes that encouragement was a good thing. However, I believe that has also given us to much freedom to take it to far. And more importantly where does it stop? Do we just sit back and all become relativists?

I’m not claiming I’m right and everyone else is wrong. All I am claiming is Christ is right and there can only be one truth. Now the hard part of our walk with Christ is do we love Him enough to want to know what is His truth or do we want to figure it out on our own.

. I also think that he deserves the benefit of the doubt - at least before you really get to know him

Like I said don’t know much about the man, most of what I do know comes from Dr. David Anders. He did his PHd studies on Luther and the reformation when he was still a Calvinist. His research is what lead him into the Catholic Church. Anyway, regardless of what he says about Luther it seems to me the mans failure to use his eraser, on some of his comments, is proof positive of the type of man he was.

God Bless

 

[commenter]

commenter:

Actually we DO need to capitalize “tradition” at times, to differentiate that one percent of traditions defined by the Magisterium as authoritative - as Tradition.

I have now learned that only 1% of tradition is “authoritative”, with capital t, … I am wondering what the 1 … are , that they are fine enough to strain the gnats that are Orthodoxy and Protestantism.

EO and to some extent the great majority of Protestants accept most of that same small body of (defined) Tradition. They, like Catholics, regard mostly the same many, other, ancient Christian traditions (all claiming to be consistent with Scripture) as either heretical, trivial, or not substantiated.

I’m not asking you to accept a template, I’m asking you to recognize that much of what you likely already accept was shaped by a defined-Tradition template.

 

[TULIPed]

From what I’ve read this is an illusion.

Might I suggest that there’s 2 sides to every story. For example, here’s a snippet from a non-Catholic website (I’ll admit it’s clearly not as robust as Wikipedia ):

" …Erasmus’ Greek New Testament which had just been printed six years before in 1516. And we should pause here and make clear what an incendiary thing this Greek New Testament was in history. David Daniell describes the magnitude of this event:

“This was the first time that the Greek New Testament had been printed. It is no exaggeration to say that it set fire to Europe. Luther [1483-1546] translated it into his famous German version of 1522. In a few years there appeared translations from the Greek into most European vernaculars. They were the true basis of the popular reformation.”

Now don’t get me wrong here, I do agree that more people read the Bible now a days, so yes that encouragement was a good thing.

Agreed.

Now the hard part of our walk with Christ is do we love Him enough to want to know what is His truth or do we want to figure it out on our own.

Protestants don’t believe we figure it out on our own. We believe that the Holy Spirit - the paraclete - helps us. But I take your point.

Anyway, regardless of what he says about Luther it seems to me the mans failure to use his eraser, on some of his comments, is proof positive of the type of man he was.

From the CNA:

"And he [Luther] probably wasn’t all that defiant; he likely had the attitude of a scholar trying to raise questions and concerns. At that point, Luther didn’t know how defiant he would eventually become, or that his act, and his subsequent theological work, would lead to one of the greatest disruptions of unity in the Church’s history.

“This was not a declaration of war against the Catholic Church, nor was it a break,” Dr. Alan Schreck with Franciscan University of Steubenville told CNA.

“It was a concerned, Augustinian monk and biblical scholar correcting an abuse, and it was really a call for a dialogue.”

Yes, I know you think he was a crazy villain. I’d ask you to consider though, that perhaps his motives weren’t ENTIRELY misplaced.

 

[MT1926]

This was the first time that the Greek New Testament had been printed.

Yeah I think it was a matter of the times. Everything was just lined up perfectly. From my understanding Luther wasn’t the first to call for reform, it did happen all throughout the history of the Church. The printing press was the driving force behind why the reformation “got out of hand”. I don’t mean that in a mean way, just couldn’t think of any other way to say it,

Protestants don’t believe we figure it out on our own. We believe that the Holy Spirit - the paraclete - helps us. But I take your point.

I apologize that this comes across this way, it is my lack of understanding. I totally understand that you believe this, I just can’t wrap my brain around it. If someone would give me a good explaination on this it would help but it’s usually just an assertion that they know. Not wanting to call anyone a liar but I know you’ve heard this before, but just can’t see why the Holy Spirit would want so many different truths?

Yes, I know you think he was a crazy villain.

I’m sorry if what I said makes you believe I think he was a villain. As I said earlier, I think he had some inner turmoil. To be quite honest I think if he were alive today he would be diagnosed with scrupulosity

I’d ask you to consider though, that perhaps his motives weren’t ENTIRELY misplaced.

I thought I already said he wasn’t entirely misplaced like 4 posts ago. Like I said Some of his 95 theses were good and easy to come to agreement on.

Please don’t think I think he was evil I just think the reformation opened a can of worms that I don’t see closing any time to soon.

God Bless

 

[TULIPed]

I totally understand that you believe this, I just can’t wrap my brain around it.

Fair.

I’m sorry if what I said makes you believe I think he was a villain. As I said earlier, I think he had some inner turmoil. To be quite honest I think if he were alive today he would be diagnosed with scrupulosity

I was overbearing. Apologies are mine.

Please don’t think I think he was evil I just think the reformation opened a can of worms that I don’t see closing any time to soon.

Well said MT.

 

[MT1926]

What more can I do than agree with you ?

I never said Luther said it the entire discussion was because Jon said what was meant by what he posted was norm of Tradition. We are just going in circles I keep saying Jon said it and you keep saying Luther didn’t. We can move on.

Did not know that you remaining Catholic hinged upon knowing the succinctness of say Lutheranism.

Not sure how on earth you got from me saying I like my questions answered, basically not just blindly believe what I am told (like many Catholics are accused of), to my Catholic Faith hinges on knowing about Lutheranism. I honestly can not see making that connection.

Was Socrates, or Jesus, being vague and no use to folk by answering a question with another question, or speaking in parables ?

Yes but in the end Jesus did explain the meaning to His disciples. My point being in the end Jesus did have an answer to ALL of the questions asked of Him. Which as I said earlier is why I remain Catholic because She has the answers to all of the questions I ask.

Actually I believe from all posts we pretty much agree on SS,

I’m not seeing this from the posts but will not argue if you believe it to be so.

God Bless

 

[mcq72]

I’m not asking you to accept a template, I’m asking you to recognize that much of what you likely already accept was shaped by a defined-Tradition template.

I will recognize that if you can also recognize the same defined-tradition Template gave us division thru what half of Christendom sees as error.

 

[mcq72]

Yes but in the end Jesus did explain the meaning to His disciples. My point being in the end Jesus did have an answer to ALL of the questions asked of Him. Which as I said earlier is why I remain Catholic because She has the answers to all of the questions I ask.

Well put…Can’t say the same , I mean Jesus doesn’t even answers all my questions, at least not yet on some…yet He places me in a church body.

certainly asking questions is a way to learn of others. Another way is similar to Indian saying, “Walk a mile in another’s moccasins before you judge him.”

not sure getting the answers from others you want matters as much when you already having the right answers from CC in the first place…but may i be at your service to that end

 

[mcq72]

EO and to some extent the great majority of Protestants accept most of that same small body of (defined) Tradition. They, like Catholics, regard mostly the same many, other, ancient Christian traditions (all claiming to be consistent with Scripture) as either heretical, trivial, or not substantiated.

I’m not asking you to accept a template, I’m asking you to recognize that much of what you likely already accept was shaped by a defined-Tradition template.

Thank you …nice post again…indeed give honor to where honor is due, and the humble will receive honor, and for sure early fathers were humble unto death in and for their faith.

But we are also to eschew error, and pride can lead to that (error). Taking the condititionality out of leading teaching His Word (humility/reliance on Him) may be a prideful error in itself, culminating with the 1870 council declaration itself. No going back now. Cant. Is it humility or pride that would say, “go back for (fixing) what ?”

But thank you for touching on common ground, that is Common Ground.

 

[commenter]

commenter:

I’m not asking you to accept a template, I’m asking you to recognize that much of what you likely already accept was shaped by a defined-Tradition template.

I will recognize that if you can also recognize the same defined-tradition Template gave us division thru what half of Christendom sees as error.

Actually it’s likely a lot more than half of Christendom saw the Magisterium, and its defined Tradition (and its defined canon) as error. In their prime, groups like the Gnostic Christians, the Arian Christians and other Christian groups likely made up over half of Christendom.

You are right in that the Defined Tradition created division. The “Unity Party” was the Gnostics. They were defeated by the (divisive) Catholics.

Today, Protestants unconsciously accept most of the Defined tradition.
Whenever a group strays too far from that Tradition, like the Bible quoting JWs, Protestants label that group a cult

 

[Theo520]

There will always be different interpretations, hence there will be division.

 

[mcq72]

Actually it’s likely a lot more than half of Christendom saw the Magisterium, and its defined Tradition (and its defined canon) as error. In their prime, groups like the Gnostic Christians, the Arian Christians and other Christian groups likely made up over half of Christendom.

You are right in that the Defined Tradition created division. The “Unity Party” was the Gnostics. They were defeated by the (divisive) Catholics.

Well, that is not the half I was referring to. Honor has been given to those old battles of 1600 years ago and more, from which we all benefit today.

However, at some point one must relinquish justifying oneself with the old victories and face the dilemma of a thousand or even 500 years ago, on their own merits.

Although I don’t always like the saying, “What have you done for me lately?”, it is pertinent to persevering to the end, not resting too comfortably on past laurels.

Yet I know that is not what you are doing, but I can not accept a template that basically says once right always right, that when she speaks , it is infallibly the Word of God, or a capital t. An automatic, guaranteed, institutional perseverance to the end, rightly dividing.

The main thing I was addressing as divisive was not so much anything over theology in the usual sense, but a jurisdictional one, that of the bishop of Rome as defined by CC.

 

[commenter]

Honor has been given to those old battles of 1600 years ago and more, from which we all benefit today.

Your response to my post was reasonable, and biblical. Catholics tend to rest on the sanctity and courage of their ancestors.

Just a caution, that the heresies defeated over 1600 years ago didn’t die, they went underground. Over the centuries they sprang up, this one here, later that one over there.

Since 1960 they are all springing up, everywhere in the West. Protestants and Catholics have few recent victories and many defeats.

 

[mcq72]

Yes, quite right, thank you.

 

[JonNC]

Today, Protestants unconsciously accept most of the Defined tradition.

Some are very conscious in that acceptance.

 

[commenter]

Now if we could only get different strands of Christians to accept each other, (without compromising doctrine).