Sola Scriptura

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AmbroseSJ said:
ckempston:

If you were able to read the Holy Scriptures as a rational mature man (while setting aside your prejudices and beliefs) you would see the Truth.

The Holy Scriptures can not uphold Doctrines on their own: See Newman’s Tract 85 here.

You dare not look, however, as your little collection of “rules” would then shatter into a thousand pieces.

You would like to believe your little collection of “rules” can take the place of Christ’s Chuch.
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Which “rule,” specifically, do you disagree with? These aren’t some rules I made up on the fly. I think you’ll find that your own church holds them to be true.

If you’d like to make an argument, please, feel free at any time. I don’t argue with links.
 
ckempston said:
Which “rule,” specifically, do you disagree with? These aren’t some rules I made up on the fly. I think you’ll find that your own church holds them to be true.

If you’d like to make an argument, please, feel free at any time. I don’t argue with links.
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You are quite wrong. Your “rules” are conjured up, and non-Scriptural. Our Church does not interpret Scriptures based on your little collection of “rules.” See the Catechism of the Catholic Church #112-119.

The link was given as a favor to you. John Henry Newman’s tract on Scripture Proofs of Catholic Doctrine should be read by every sola-scriptura believer, if they are lovers of Truth. BTW, he wrote this while he was an Anglican.
 
I have done a little reading on religions and denominations. I don’t think any group goes solely by scripture. They all include tradition, history, and reason to some extent or another. What group, for example, enforces all the laws set down in Leviticus? The answer is none.
 
OriginalJS said:
I have done a little reading on religions and denominations. I don’t think any group goes solely by scripture. They all include tradition, history, and reason to some extent or another. What group, for example, enforces all the laws set down in Leviticus? The answer is none.
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The problem is, Sola Scriptura adherents will deny this simple fact
 
CWBetts said:
The problem is, Sola Scriptura adherents will deny this simple fact
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As I pointed out in my original response, most people who say they believe in Sola Scriptura actually believe in Prima Scriptura, they just don’t realize it (i.e. they are mistaken in their reasoning).
 
AmbroseSJ said:
You are quite wrong. Your “rules” are conjured up, and non-Scriptural. Our Church does not interpret Scriptures based on your little collection of “rules.” See the Catechism of the Catholic Church #112-119.

The link was given as a favor to you. John Henry Newman’s tract on Scripture Proofs of Catholic Doctrine should be read by every sola-scriptura believer, if they are lovers of Truth. BTW, he wrote this while he was an Anglican.
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You do realize that anybody who comes and reads this thread will note your failure to point out which “rule” you disagree with. That’s probably because any disagreement on your part will quickly be correctly observed as totally irrational.

a) The law of non contradiction applies to the Bible as well as it applies to anything else in life. A thing cannot be both true and false at the same time. If someone denies this, he denies reality itself, and so could not possibly make sense of anything.

b) In interpreting passages of scripture, one must use consistent methods that yield consistent results deductively or that create a high degree of certainty by inductive reasoning.

c) As the Scriptures are written in human language they are bound by the rules of those languages; gender, tense, mood, voice, subject/verb agreement etc. must all be taken into consideration (e.g. if a passage says you were saved at a certain point - perfect tense - then you cannot make it future tense on a whim).

I await your continued burden-of-proof shifting, link posting, and strawman attacks so I can further demonstrate your inability to actually challenge any of these points.
 
AmbroseSJ said:
ckempston:

If you were able to read the Holy Scriptures as a rational mature man (while setting aside your prejudices and beliefs) you would see the Truth.

The Holy Scriptures can not uphold Doctrines on their own: See Newman’s Tract 85 here.

You dare not look, however, as your little collection of “rules” would then shatter into a thousand pieces.

You would like to believe your little collection of “rules” can take the place of Christ’s Chuch.
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Interesting. So, this Newman guy thinks that it’s a pile of rubbish if someone asks where a doctrine is found in scripture. I’ll be sure to read the whole thing, but that’s what I gather from the first paragraph.

It’s amazing how much his thoughts differ from those of Irenaeus Bishop of Lyons in regard to the Scriptures:

If, for instance, any one asks, “What was God doing before He made the world?” we reply that the answer to such a question lies with God Himself. For that this world was formed perfect by God, receiving a beginning in time, the Scriptures teach us; but no Scripture reveals to us what God was employed about before this event.

Say what? Irenaeus, a Bishop in the second century and disciple of Polycarp and only one generation removed from the Apostle John said that if God didn’t reveal it in the Scriptures we should just leave it alone??? GASP!!! Sounds almost like…drumroll please…Sola Scriptura!!!
 
ckempston said:
OK, this is somewhat of a strawman. Your second sentence has little to do with the first. I actually agree with your second sentence, but the reason for this deficiency is not reliance on the Scriptures, but non-reliance on the Scriptures.
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What does your Church teach?
 
Either you didn’t finish reading it, or your comprehension was negligible. Newman was devoted to the Church Fathers. Much of what we have even today, by way of translations into English, from the early Church Fathers was done by him and his colleagues from the Oxford Movement in the 19th century.
 
ckempston said:
I did. The only eye-opener I had was how far Catholicism has come from the beliefs of the Early Church Fathers.
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Actually, if you look at desription of the Mass from the ECFs and compare it to the modern liturgy, not much has changed
 
ckempston said:
Ouch. Irenaeus called the Scriptures the ground and pillar of our faith, and said the Apostles confirmed everything they taught in writing. So much for Sacred Tradition.

Cyril of Jerusalem

Wow. Don’t even deliver a casual remark without the Scriptures, nor be drawn aside to mere probabilities (e.g. the majority of extra-Biblical Catholic doctrine). Ouch!

Wow. If it’s not in scripture, Irenaeus saw fit to reject a doctrine out of hand. What a concept! I guess I’m in good company.
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Irenaeus and Cyril are not the only church fathers to speak in this way.
There is, brethren, one God, the knowledge of whom we gain from the Holy Scriptures, and from no other source. For just as a man, if he wishes to be skilled in the wisdom of this world, will find himself unable to get at it in any other way than by mastering the dogmas of philosophers, so all of us who wish to practise piety will be unable to learn its practice from any other quarter than the oracles of God. Whatever things, then, the Holy Scriptures declare, at these let us took; and whatsoever things they teach, these let us learn; and as the Father wills our belief to be, let us believe; and as He wills the Son to be glorified, let us glorify Him; and as He wills the Holy Spirit to be bestowed, let us receive Him. Not according to our own will, nor according to our own mind, nor yet as using violently those things which are given by God, but even as He has chosen to teach them by the Holy Scriptures, so let us discern them.
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Hippolytus (Against Noetus, Paragraph 9)
newadvent.org/fathers/0521.htm
In all these books those who fear God and are of a meek and pious disposition seek the will of God.… Next, those matters that are plainly laid down in them, whether rules of life or rules of faith, are to be searched into more carefully and more diligently; and the more of these a man discovers, the more capacious does his understanding become. For among the things that are plainly laid down in Scripture are to be found all matters that concern faith and the manner of life, to wit, hope and love, of which I have spoken in the previous book. After this, when we have made ourselves to a certain extent familiar with the language of Scripture, we may proceed to open up and investigate the obscure passages, and in doing so draw examples from the plainer expressions to throw light upon the more obscure, and use the evidence of passages about which there is no doubt to remove all hesitation in regard to the doubtful passages. And in this matter memory counts for a great deal; but if the memory be defective, no rules can supply the want.
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Augustine (On Christian Doctrine, Book 2, Chapter 9, Paragraph 14)
newadvent.org/fathers/12022.htm
Whereas, therefore, in every question, which relates to life and conduct, not only teaching, but exhortation also is necessary; in order that by teaching we may know what is to be done, and by exhortation may be incited not to think it irksome to do what we already know is to be done; what more can I teach you, than what we read in the Apostle? For holy Scripture setteth a rule to our teaching, that we dare not “be wise more than it behoveth to be wise;” but be wise, as himself saith, “unto soberness, according as unto each God hath allotted the measure of faith.” Be it not therefore for me to teach you any other thing, save to expound to you the words of the Teacher, and to treat of them as the Lord shall have given to me.
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Augustine (On the Good of Widowhood, Section 2)
ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf103.v.iv.iii.html
Now these things we say superficially, as to men not knowing the Scriptures. But our discourses would be unnecessary if you would believe and take heed to the divine word, for that would teach you all things.
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John Chrysostom, (Homilies on 1 Timothy, Homily 1)
ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf113.v.iii.ii.html
“All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.” All what Scripture? all that sacred writing, he means, of which I was speaking…"For doctrine." For thence we shall know, whether we ought to learn or to be ignorant of anything. And thence we may disprove what is false, thence we may be corrected and brought to a right mind, may be comforted and consoled, and if anything is deficient, we may have it added to us…You have the Scriptures, he says, in place of me. If you would learn anything, you may learn it from them. And if he thus wrote to Timothy, who was filled with the Spirit, how much more to us!
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John Chrysostom (Homilies on Second Timothy, 9, 3:16-17)
newadvent.org/fathers/230709.htm
I revere the fulness of His Scripture, in which He manifests to me both the Creator and the creation. In the gospel, moreover, I discover a Minister and Witness of the Creator, even His Word. But whether all things were made out of any underlying Matter, I have as yet failed anywhere to find. Where such a statement is written, Hermogenes’ shop must tell us. I****f it is nowhere written, then let it fear the woe which impends on all who add to or take away from the written word.
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Tertullian (Against Hermogenes, Chapter 22)
ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf03.v.v.xxii.html
 
In answer to all matters regarding faith and practice mentioned in the Bible, it continually points men to Christ. This is why the Roman Catholic Church cannot adhere to sola scriptura. Christ is not a sufficient answer to all RCC matters of faith and practice.
 
Wild_Boar said:
In answer to all matters regarding faith and practice mentioned in the Bible, it continually points men to Christ. This is why the Roman Catholic Church cannot adhere to sola scriptura. Christ is not a sufficient answer to all RCC matters of faith and practice.
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What are you talking about? Jesus is at the center of Catholicism. To say otherwise displays eith er dishonesty or ignorance.
 
CWBetts said:
Jesus is at the center of Catholicism. To say otherwise displays eith er dishonesty or ignorance.
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I admit that there is much that I don’t understand regarding your religion, but I know this much: I don’t need anything more than what the Bible says regarding Christ as the only way to God.
 
Wild_Boar said:
I admit that there is much that I don’t understand regarding your religion, but I know this much: I don’t need anything more than what the Bible says regarding Christ as the only way to God.
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And the Bible is the source for the Sacraments, and our need for good works, and Papal authority, and, well, everything
 
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