Sola Scriptura

[Mhz]

We should never put too much confidence in an individual. Even the Pope can get it wrong occasionally.

But the Bible made us a promise that there would be a Church that will lead us to the Truth, and told us that the Church is, “the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth”. Jesus also told us his Church would always be here, that Satan would not succeed in destroying it, that it would be like a city on a hill, a light to the world.

There is only one Church that has always been here. There is only one Church where the gospel is preached to all nations. Its clergy may drift from the truth from time to time, many of its laity may also do so, but the Church, guided by the Holy Spirit, has always acted to correct those lapses and abuses. God has even allowed local churches (parishes) to be destroyed when they drift too far from his Truth (see Revelation).

I have to go to work now, have a great day. God bless you,

Morris, your dedication to the Church is admirable and well stated but that’s another topic. And you run the risk of getting off subject, again. I’d sure like to have that discussion if you want to start another forum.

The forum that first got my attention on this site was “Judging who gets to heaven” and the issue of exclusiveness of the Catholic Church for salvation. A belief in Sola Scriptura has much the same potential for manipulation and deception. Again, the proof can easily be seen in the protestant diversity. And even Papal or Church error as you mentioned. (You might catch some ire with that statement.)

Whenever we make a doctrine into a dogma things deteriorate quickly. I believe that God will have no equal in our lives and that includes the gift of scripture that he has so graciously given us. The Bible is only a shadow and reflection of whom he is, not his being… and so goes the Church.

 

[guanophore]

The reason there are 20,000 protestant denominations is because there are nearly that many bible translations.

I think a distinction needs to be made between “translation” and "interpretation. There are not that many translations, but there are even more than that many interpretations. People can even use a Catholic bible and come up with anti-catholic understandings of the writing.

I’d be happy to give you some specific examples provided you don’t get me in trouble with the forum police, again.

They are not “police”, but moderators! If we police ourselves, it makes their job easier.

 

[RWMorris]

Morris, your dedication to the Church is admirable and well stated but that’s another topic. And you run the risk of getting off subject, again. I’d sure like to have that discussion if you want to start another forum …

I find the Church and the Bible inexorably linked. I cannot separate them.

Let me ask you something. Do you believe the Bible is the inspired Word of God? I will assume you do. Then it would follow that you also believe the Bible is absolutely correct in its teachings.

Do you believe that your interpretation of the Bible is absolutely correct? If you do, you place yourself above all other men and the Church. You are also in violation of that very Bible (1 Timothy 3:15).

If you do not, I must ask, what use to you is the inerrant Word of God without the very Church that God promised to be “the pillar and foundation of the truth”.

The very idea of Sola Scriptura rips the relationship between Bible and the Church. Everyman is his own Pope, his own Church. No one’s interpretation of the Bible is any better than the next. The Holy Spirit is either a prankster, or really doesn’t do much, or really doesn’t exist. And what does that say about God?

 

[SSTeacher]

The very idea of Sola Scriptura rips the relationship between Bible and the Church. Everyman is his own Pope, his own Church. No one’s interpretation of the Bible is any better than the next. The Holy Spirit is either a prankster, or really doesn’t do much, or really doesn’t exist. And what does that say about God?

I agree. I was never in the category of people that supposed Jesus had been relatively helpless for some 1500 years during which time the evil designs of Catholics were always in the ascendancy but my understanding was that abuses had been allowed to creep into the Church and that people had been led astray by the Church establishment so it seemed to me that Sola Scriptura – or, in my case, SOLO Scriptura – was the best approach for any Christian. However, when I eventually came to the realization that my personal interpretations of Scripture were the basis for my faith I also realized that I had no objective grounds whatsoever for believing that my opinions were in any way guided by the Holy Spirit whereupon the conclusion that my concept of truth rested ultimately upon my faith in myself was inescapable.

Cordially,
Mick

 

[Mhz]

I find the Church and the Bible inexorably linked. I cannot separate them.

Let me ask you something. Do you believe the Bible is the inspired Word of God? I will assume you do. Then it would follow that you also believe the Bible is absolutely correct in its teachings.

Do you believe that your interpretation of the Bible is absolutely correct? If you do, you place yourself above all other men and the Church. You are also in violation of that very Bible (1 Timothy 3:15).

If you do not, I must ask, what use to you is the inerrant Word of God without the very Church that God promised to be “the pillar and foundation of the truth”.

The very idea of Sola Scriptura rips the relationship between Bible and the Church. Everyman is his own Pope, his own Church. No one’s interpretation of the Bible is any better than the next. The Holy Spirit is either a prankster, or really doesn’t do much, or really doesn’t exist. And what does that say about God?

Morris, I think we are in agreement that sola scriptura is not sound doctrine.

If I understand you correctly, you believe in the Church translating inerrant scripture.

I also agree with you that everyman is his own pope (but I didn’t think a Catholic could say that), however, I don’t think an individual can be classified as his own Church, by definition. That would certainly be a stretch for me to accept. Who and what the Church is, is another discussion.

I think we, also, can safely say; that my interpretation of scripture is not without error. I’m not sure why anyone would take such a brazen position, including the Church; unless it is use as a tool to defraud them.

My reason for not believing in SS is because I do not believe scripture is inerrant, nor do I think holding scripture equal to God to be wise or pleasing to God.

For the record, I do believe that much of the original manuscripts of scripture were inspired. But we don’t have one page of the original manuscripts and that’s a major reason I don’t embrace SS. Your worthy Catholic scholar, Erasmus, made it pretty clear, several centuries ago, that “there were as many translations of scripture as there were scribes”. He went on to assimilate the Latin Textus Receptus with extreme criticism of the “ignorant scribes” that wrote before him. He, almost single handedly, transliterated the scripture we have today from Geek to Latin.

A simple history lesson on the canon of scripture and how we got our modern translations would convince the average student, and by far the majority of all bible scholars, that what we have today is not 100% accurate; although, the message could be 100% inspired.

As precious and valuable as scripture is to a disciple of Christ, it would follow that if our many translations are not 100% accurate, then it is very likely not inerrant. Thus, a belief in “scripture only” would be a very poor foundation to build your faith on.

 

[RWMorris]

Morris, I think we are in agreement that sola scriptura is not sound doctrine.

If I understand you correctly, you believe in the Church translating inerrant scripture.

I also agree with you that everyman is his own pope (but I didn’t think a Catholic could say that), however, I don’t think an individual can be classified as his own Church, by definition. That would certainly be a stretch for me to accept. Who and what the Church is, is another discussion.

I think we, also, can safely say; that my interpretation of scripture is not without error. I’m not sure why anyone would take such a brazen position, including the Church; unless it is use as a tool to defraud them.

My reason for not believing in SS is because I do not believe scripture is inerrant, nor do I think holding scripture equal to God to be wise or pleasing to God.

For the record, I do believe that much of the original manuscripts of scripture were inspired. But we don’t have one page of the original manuscripts and that’s a major reason I don’t embrace SS. Your worthy Catholic scholar, Erasmus, made it pretty clear, several centuries ago, that “there were as many translations of scripture as there were scribes”. He went on to assimilate the Latin Textus Receptus with extreme criticism of the “ignorant scribes” that wrote before him. He, almost single handedly, transliterated the scripture we have today from Geek to Latin.

A simple history lesson on the canon of scripture and how we got our modern translations would convince the average student, and by far the majority of all bible scholars, that what we have today is not 100% accurate; although, the message could be 100% inspired.

As precious and valuable as scripture is to a disciple of Christ, it would follow that if our many translations are not 100% accurate, then it is very likely not inerrant. Thus, a belief in “scripture only” would be a very poor foundation to build your faith on.

You are very wise to be untrusting of our humanity, but I question your wisdom concerning God’s inability to preserve the essence of his salvation message regardless of how many times it is translated. I’m not saying there are not superficial errors in all the translations we use; to say otherwise displays a lack of understanding that exact translations are impossible. Those who are fluent in more than one language know and understand this. But I do believe the essence of the salvation message has been preserved; what kind of omnipotent God could not perform such a miracle?

That being ask, what kind of God would promise us an institution that would be “the pillar and foundation of the truth” and not deliver on his word? What kind of God would promise us a Holy Guide, that this “Spirit of truth, … will guide you into all truth”, and not deliver on his word?

Would such a God be worthy of our worship?

 

[Mhz]

You are very wise to be untrusting of our humanity, but I question your wisdom concerning God’s inability to preserve the essence of his salvation message regardless of how many times it is translated. I’m not saying there are not superficial errors in all the translations we use; to say otherwise displays a lack of understanding that exact translations are impossible. Those who are fluent in more than one language know and understand this. But I do believe the essence of the salvation message has been preserved; what kind of omnipotent God could not perform such a miracle?

That being ask, what kind of God would promise us an institution that would be “the pillar and foundation of the truth” and not deliver on his word? What kind of God would promise us a Holy Guide, that this “Spirit of truth, … will guide you into all truth”, and not deliver on his word?

Would such a God be worthy of our worship?

I don’t doubt God’s abiltiy to maintain the message of salvation but I have no assurance that the Catholic Church is the final authority to interpret such a message. If we are each a Church unto ourselves as you maintain, then we are in agreement.

God bless, Mhz

 

[RWMorris]

I don’t doubt God’s abiltiy to maintain the message of salvation but I have no assurance that the Catholic Church is the final authority to interpret such a message. If we are each a Church unto ourselves as you maintain, then we are in agreement.

God bless, Mhz

You misunderstood me, or I wasn’t clear. I do not believe that each of us are a church unto ourselves. If the Catholic Church is not the final authority, which church is? God did promise us a Church with that authority, and I want to be a member of that Church. I want to know the Truth.

 

[RWMorris]

… However, when I eventually came to the realization that my personal interpretations of Scripture were the basis for my faith I also realized that I had no objective grounds whatsoever for believing that my opinions were in any way guided by the Holy Spirit whereupon the conclusion that my concept of truth rested ultimately upon my faith in myself was inescapable.

Cordially,
Mick

Mick, this is a profound observation concerning sola scriptura and our humanness, and well stated. I was guilty of the same thing, and still have problems in that area. Too much Protestant in me, I guess. I’ve read it through a dozen times and it gets better with each reading.

 

[Mhz]

You misunderstood me, or I wasn’t clear. I do not believe that each of us are a church unto ourselves. If the Catholic Church is not the final authority, which church is? God did promise us a Church with that authority, and I want to be a member of that Church. I want to know the Truth.

It’s obvious that you are truly devoted to the Catholic Church and I applaud your diligence.

I don’t necessarily disagree with your emphasis on the Church’s role. The difference we have is that I do not believe the Church is defined by an institution or an organization. The Churches described in the book of Revelation were all failures and I doubt we’re any different, today. Let me join the perfect church and I’ll ruin it.

I think the point God is making regarding believers is a hard pill to swallow. Many who have cast out demons and made genuine claims of sonship never really knew him and he didn’t know them. It makes more sense to me that the Church scripture is referring to is the non-defined collection of the Elect and Overcomers in the earth. It is this invisible force that the gates of Hell cannot prevail against. The Church isn’t made up of walls, pews, commandments, liturgy, or sola scriptura. The law was replaced with a much more difficult taskmaster… total liberty! The nearly impossible test is to see if we will find the narrow path… and we can’t handle it… (including me). The impossible law of old was replaced by the much more difficult royal law. Instead of owing our 10% we now owe 100%. This law requires us to love God and others above ourselves; go figure. And it can’t be satisfied by looking to the Church or its leaders.

Instead of trying to comprehend the agape form of love we are distracted trying to qualify for heaven and avoiding hell. We really don’t know what salvation is. Eternal life has very little to do with heaven. Jesus said that eternal life “aionios zoe”, was knowing the Father and Jesus Christ (Joh 17:3.) It has nothing to do with being part of the right organization or denomination. Our salvation is found in knowing the Father and not in religious order. Salvation is what happens when we make peace with God and surrender to his plan to perfect us. You may not have meant it the way you wrote it, but I personally believe the Church really is within us.

We are all on a spiritual pilgrimage. God left the temple built by men the day the vale was torn and ALL the captives were set free. But men want to stay within the walls. Men desire rules and guidelines because rules make us feel secure so we can measure ourselves, accordingly. That was the lesson of the old covenant and here we’re going around the same mountain under grace.

Since the beginning of time men have preferred that leaders and rules dictate our morality and spirituality because it requires less personal transparency before God; if we can’t do it we’re content to let the Church or a set of rules (Sola Scriptura) do it for us.

Sola scriptura is just more of the same. Give me a leader and I’ll follow. Give me a rule book and I’ll be good soldier. God wants our hearts under the new covenant and not our obedience as under the old covenant. And for our own good; God doesn’t make it easy.

So what’s the answer… I like what your Saint Augustine was credited with saying; “love God and do as you please”. I think he had it figured out.

If you really love God what pleases you will please God.

 

[RWMorris]

If you really love God what pleases you will please God.

In the garden of Gethsemane, Jesus made it plain what would please him, “My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me …”

Then he makes it plain what our priorities must be, " … Yet not as I will, but as you will."

I’ve lived my whole life doing what pleased me. My family, and the victims of my desires, paid a terrible price for my pleasures. God, through his infinite love and wisdom, made it possible for me to salvage some of my life. I just hope and pray that God can afford the electric bill for my stay in purgatory.

Great discussion, Mhz. May God bless you in your search for the Truth.

 

[Mhz]

In the garden of Gethsemane, Jesus made it plain what would please him, “My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me …”

Then he makes it plain what our priorities must be, " … Yet not as I will, but as you will."

I’ve lived my whole life doing what pleased me. My family, and the victims of my desires, paid a terrible price for my pleasures. God, through his infinite love and wisdom, made it possible for me to salvage some of my life. I just hope and pray that God can afford the electric bill for my stay in purgatory.

Great discussion, Mhz. May God bless you in your search for the Truth.

I feel your pain and can appreciate your sincerity. We all walk a different path and learn our lessons one way or another. The promise we have from God is that one day every knee will bow and every tongue will confess him as Lord. He never gives up on us (even in purgatory).

I met last week with a family with eight sons brought up under stricked Sola scriptura teaching and two of them are in jail or parole today. The rules and obedience to the written word didn’t win their hearts and it certainly didn’t keep them out of a life of trouble. The father and mother are now spending nearly all her days doing damage control.

Let me give you another real world example.

We have 4 adult children and 14 grandchildren. They all live within 15 minutes of our home with no desire to run to another state, or get away from home. They are all part of our family business in some manner. They all love the Lord.

Three of our children gave their spouse their first kiss on their wedding day. Because we have been blessed financially my wife is able to dedicate at least one day to each of the families to help with homeschooling and other domestic duties. (No wonder they don’t want to move away.)

I wish I could say it was all because of my great fathering skills but we all know around here that it’s my wife who made the sacrifices and who warrants the praise and their devotion.

How did she do it?? She won their hearts as young children. They were brought up under the new covenant image of God and not the God of “turn or burn”. They would no more think of hurting their mother for the pursuit of personal pleasure then we should if we have had a genuine encounter with the living God. Love is a much greater motivator than punishment. (But God will use both to get our attention.) Other than normal discipline at very young ages there were no beatings, no threats, and no teenage rebellion.

There are many ways to parent but none has a better result than winning their hearts and affection to assure years of joy and rewarding relationships.

God isn’t impressed with a life of dedication if it’s done out of fear of punishment. As you must know, once the Lord wins our hearts our motivation will change.

That’s why I say that the greater taskmaster is agape. The price has been paid and the gates of hell broken down and we have complete liberty to love him or abuse him, as we choose.

The only debt we now owe is to love God and others as he has first loved us.