Sola Scriptura

[bjcros87]

Tom:

Here in lies a problem, people “shopping” for a church they agree with. You see a problem with that? They aren’t seeking the truth, they’re seeking something they’re comfortable with. Hint, the truth makes you uncomfortable because of our sin, if you’re not uncomfortable you’re not hearing the truth. Again, there is only one truth.
Again they all share the same goal, to discredit the Catholic Church, why? If the Catholic Church is right we’re (protestant church) wrong! So we have to find something wrong. Amazing they only choose the Catholic Church to publicly slam. They know the others are false as well, why bother?

The truth doesn’t make me uncomfortable. I don’t look for a church that makes me feel comfortable. I want a church that preaches truth. I wouldn’t mind becoming Catholic but the church needs to admit its error. Much of the corruption at the time of Martin Luther has gone away and been changed. However, there are still ideas the church won’t admit their wrong. I do see the shopping as a problem. It is the price we have paid. I think it was necessary for the Reformation to occur the church woudln’t have changed if Luther’s ideas weren’t spreading. They don’t agree with the others, just the same as Catholics. I haven’t been taught anti-Catholic things as anti-Catholic. I have been taught a differing view than Catholics and heard misconceptions about the Catholic Chruch.

 

[Tom]

bjcros87:

I’m not saying that all tradition is evil. All I say is that it isn’t on the same level as Scripture. I say the same thing of any teaching Protestant or Catholic.

Well, here I disagree because Scripture (New Testament) IS Tradition. It’s where Scripture comes from. How can you say Tradition is not equal to Scripture when Scripture begins with Tradition? In the early days of the Church (first two centuries) there were very, very few written documents held by the Church, the epistles were not organized into a book. Scripture was the spoken Word of God, it wasn’t read from the New Testament. When we read about the Apostles reading Scripture it is referring to the Old Testament, not the New. The spoken Word of God IS Tradition. You can’t separate them, you can’t say one is more important than the other. They agree, there is no disagreement. Let’s discuss a teaching of the Catholic Church which goes against Scripture, pick one, we’ll start a new thread. You’ll quickly learn NO teaching of the Church goes against Scripture. None, in 2,000 years. Can you say the same about protestant teaching, in just the last 500 years? I can point to many protestant teachings which go directly against Scripture, to begin with “Sola Scriptura”

John 21:25 But there are also many other things which Jesus did; which, if they were written every one, the world itself, I think, would not be able to contain the books that should be written.

Clearly says not all was written here, in fact very little was written here in comparison to His life.

Luke 24:44 And he said to them: These are the words which I spoke to you, while I was yet with you, that all things must needs be fulfilled, which are written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me. 45Then he opened their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures. 46 And he said to them: Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise again from the dead, the third day: 47 And that penance and ** remission of sins should be preached in his name, unto all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.** 48 And you are witnesses of these things. 49 And I send the promise of my Father upon you: but stay you in the city till you be endued with power from on high.

Wow, how wonderful Jesus opened all of the Scriptures to His Apostles. I’d love to read these Words of His, please direct me to them in the Bible. Does Jesus mean read the New Testament to them? a book which didn’t exist? He said “preach” orally. This is Tradition.

Acts 28:21 But they said to him: We neither received letters concerning thee from Judea, neither did any of the brethren that came hither, relate or speak any evil of thee. 22 But we desire to hear of thee what thou thinkest; for as concerning this sect, we know that it is every where contradicted.
** 23 And when they had appointed him a day, there came very many to him unto his lodgings; to whom he expounded, testifying the kingdom of God, and persuading them concerning Jesus, out of the law of Moses and the prophets, from morning until evening.** Expounded, orally, not from written Scripture. This is Tradition.
24 And some believed the things that were said; but some believed not. 25 And when they agreed not among themselves, they departed, Paul speaking this one word: Well did the Holy Ghost speak to our fathers by Isaias the prophet, 26 Saying: Go to this people, and say to them: With the ear you shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing you shall see, and shall not perceive. 27 For the heart of this people is grown gross, and with their ears have they heard heavily, and their eyes they have shut; lest perhaps they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them. 28 Be it known therefore to you, that this salvation of God is sent to the Gentiles, and they will hear it. 29 And when he had said these things, the Jews went out from him, having much reasoning among themselves. 30 And he remained two whole years in his own hired lodging; and he received all that came in to him,

31 Preaching the kingdom of God, and teaching the things which concern the Lord Jesus Christ, with all confidence, without prohibition.

 

[Tom]

Jesus established a Church, He did not write a book, nor did He instruct His Apostles to write a book, the book, although inspired comes solely from the Tradition of the Catholic Church.

Matthew 16:18 And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Not upon this rock I will write my book.

Matthew 18 Found phrase
17 And if he will not hear them: tell the church. And if he will not hear the church, let him be to thee as the heathen and publican.

The Church will hear, not compare it to a book.
What is the pillar and ground of truth? The Book or the Church?

1 Timothy 3:15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

 

[bjcros87]

Tom:

Well, here I disagree because Scripture (New Testament) IS Tradition. It’s where Scripture comes from. How can you say Tradition is not equal to Scripture when Scripture begins with Tradition? In the early days of the Church (first two centuries) there were very, very few written documents held by the Church, the epistles were not organized into a book. Scripture was the spoken Word of God, it wasn’t read from the New Testament. When we read about the Apostles reading Scripture it is referring to the Old Testament, not the New. The spoken Word of God IS Tradition. You can’t separate them, you can’t say one is more important than the other. They agree, there is no disagreement. Let’s discuss a teaching of the Catholic Church which goes against Scripture, pick one, we’ll start a new thread. You’ll quickly learn NO teaching of the Church goes against Scripture. None, in 2,000 years. Can you say the same about protestant teaching, in just the last 500 years? I can point to many protestant teachings which go directly against Scripture, to begin with “Sola Scriptura”
Clearly says not all was written here, in fact very little was written here in comparison to His life.
Wow, how wonderful Jesus opened all of the Scriptures to His Apostles. I’d love to read these Words of His, please direct me to them in the Bible. Does Jesus mean read the New Testament to them? a book which didn’t exist? He said “preach” orally. This is Tradition.

Point well taken. However, I have heard people here say that Christ has protected his bride(the Church), so wouldn’t he have made sure that they include what is essential in the scripture. Once again Protestants and Catholics don’t disagree on the books of the New Testament. We disagree on the deteurocannon. I understand what your saying. I really do, but I don’t agree.

 

[bjcros87]

Tom:

Jesus established a Church, He did not write a book, nor did He instruct His Apostles to write a book, the book, although inspired comes solely from the Tradition of the Catholic Church.

Once again point well received. However, it appears you are denying the fact that God inspired the writers. They were written down as well and that is why it is accepted as historical resource even outside of the church. The writers were either apostles or had direct contact with apostles. That was one of the criterias. So it wasn’t really a oral tradition at least not for long.

 

[Tom]

bjcros87:

I understand what your saying. You know what I have said in the past. My major struggle/problem with the Catholic Church right now is over the teachings on salvation. I don’t like the definition given at the Council of Trent that those outside the Catholic Church are outside of Salvation.

Great example, I couldn’t have chosen a better one. Your understanding of this is incorrect according to the Catholic Church. Please refer to the Catechism of the Catholic Church, and when you read about salvation outside the Church read ALL of the writings. It’s beautiful, and when you’re done I’m sure you’ll agree. The council has been misunderstood by many, and not surprisingly used as a weapon against the Church.

bjcros87:

However, the idea that there is no salvation outside of Christ is Scriptural.

You just paraphrased the CCC. It’s in the context that the Church is Jesus, therefore you have no salvation outside of Christ.

bjcros87:

I know the church preaches the latter now. However, they must also hold to the first one.

There was no discrepancy other than misunderstanding.
I have to run now, looking forward to continuing later.
May the peace and love of our Lord, Jesus the Christ, be with you
Tom

 

[bjcros87]

Tom:

Great example, I couldn’t have chosen a better one. Your understanding of this is incorrect according to the Catholic Church. Please refer to the Catechism of the Catholic Church, and when you read about salvation outside the Church read ALL of the writings. It’s beautiful, and when you’re done I’m sure you’ll agree. The council has been misunderstood by many, and not surprisingly used as a weapon against the Church.
You just paraphrased the CCC. It’s in the context that the Church is Jesus, therefore you have no salvation outside of Christ.
There was no discrepancy other than misunderstanding.
I have to run now, looking forward to continuing later.
May the peace and love of our Lord, Jesus the Christ, be with you
Tom

There has been no misconception on that matter. Which is unfortunate. The church goes through and lists protestant beliefs and declares those who believe them anathemas. I believe some of them therefore I am an anathema. I am cursed.
Is there a website where the Catechism is(so that I can read it)?
There isn’t discrepancy from your point of view. because it has no affect on you. It has plenty of affect on me. It is my eternal salvation. They lead to two different conclusions. I go to heaven or I go to Hell. They don’t contradict each other for Catholics. However, for me there is a contradiction.
For clarity, Am I condemned right now by the Catholic Church to suffer eternal damnation in Hell? If so, what is the scriptural evidence supporting their position? If not, then why haven’t they admited their error in calling us anathemas?

 

[Mickey]

bjcros87:

I go to heaven or I go to Hell.

Perhaps you’ll spend a bit of time in purgatory like the rest of us.

 

[Huiou_Theou]

bjcross,

There has been no misconception on that matter. Which is unfortunate. The church goes through and lists protestant beliefs and declares those who believe them anathemas. I believe some of them therefore I am an anathema. I am cursed.
Is there a website where the Catechism is(so that I can read it)?
There isn’t discrepancy from your point of view. because it has no affect on you. It has plenty of affect on me. It is my eternal salvation. They lead to two different conclusions. I go to heaven or I go to Hell. They don’t contradict each other for Catholics. However, for me there is a contradiction.
For clarity, Am I condemned right now by the Catholic Church to suffer eternal damnation in Hell? If so, what is the scriptural evidence supporting their position? If not, then why haven’t they admited their error in calling us anathemas?
Reply With Quote

BJ, why do you dictate what the Catholic Church believes?
You are obviously not Catholic.
It would be better to ASK, why as a Catholic are there Anathemas aimed at Protestant beliefs? What do they mean if…(etc.)

Dictating a “YOU BELIEVE THIS” is very unproductive – there are many things about the Catholic Faith that you only have a superficial view of.

The word Anathema, means to theme again.
The idea of a curse is a different, but related, issue.
( In fact that is a somewhat protestant translation in the KJV, etc ).
The anathemas of the council are applied to formal heretics.
Are you a Catholic who has an Oath under a bishop, entered into heresy, refused to repent, and was condemned by a Catholic bishop?

If so, which one, and when?

Until then, don’t bother pretending to be a martyr.
The only way you could be accursed, is by believing in something which Christ said, and still refusing to obey. (no martyr there).

If and when you understand the truth of the Catholic Faith, then we’ll discuss the danger of being accursed. It doesn’t make sense right now.

The catechism is online at the vatican.

Official Vatican CCC table of contents.

Please don’t just cut and paste, but research the topic first.
Especially the relation of the protestant church(es) to the Catholic Church.

God bless you.

 

[bjcros87]

Huiou Theou:

bjcross,

BJ, why do you dictate what the Catholic Church believes?
You are obviously not Catholic.
It would be better to ASK, why as a Catholic are there Anathemas aimed at Protestant beliefs? What do they mean if…(etc.)

Dictating a “YOU BELIEVE THIS” is very unproductive – there are many things about the Catholic Faith that you only have a superficial view of.

The word Anathema, means to theme again.
The idea of a curse is a different, but related, issue.
( In fact that is a somewhat protestant translation in the KJV, etc ).
The anathemas of the council are applied to formal heretics.
Are you a Catholic who has an Oath under a bishop, entered into heresy, refused to repent, and was condemned by a Catholic bishop?

If so, which one, and when?

Until then, don’t bother pretending to be a martyr.
The only way you could be accursed, is by believing in something which Christ said, and still refusing to obey. (no martyr there).

If and when you understand the truth of the Catholic Faith, then we’ll discuss the danger of being accursed. It doesn’t make sense right now.

The catechism is online at the vatican.

Official Vatican CCC table of contents.

Please don’t just cut and paste, but research the topic first.
Especially the relation of the protestant church(es) to the Catholic Church.

God bless you.

I looked at documentation from the Council of Trent. So I know what the Catholic Church has said, that is why I say the church says this. I have not been a Catholic. The definition that I found of anathema was “one that is cursed by ecclesiastical authority.” Is this not an accurate assesment of what it is.
I don’t claim to be a martyr. I don’t want you to consider me a martyr for this.
The Council declares

CANON IX.-If any one saith, that by faith alone the impious is justified; in such wise as to mean, that nothing else is required to co-operate in order to the obtaining the grace of Justification, and that it is not in any way necessary, that he be prepared and disposed by the movement of his own will; let him be anathema.

Obtained from history.hanover.edu/texts/trent/ct06.html
This curses those who believe in sola fide. Is this not a correct interpretation?

 

[bjcros87]

Mickey:

Perhaps you’ll spend a bit of time in purgatory like the rest of us.

Purgatory is one of the things I have issues with. but maybe I will.

 

[piscotikus]

bjcros87:

I know I am forgiven because Christ paid the price for my sin. Jesus is the vehicle though, isn’t he? For sin to be forgiven it must be confessed to a priest? How is it that if I confess to Christ that my sin is not forgiven? Christ is our priest, is he not?

John 20:21-23:
(Jesus) said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you.” And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the holy Spirit.
Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained.”

Jesus established Confession through the apostles and the Holy Spirit in these verses. Hope this helps.

God Bless!!

PS I just realized I was only reading from the end of the 1st page of this thread, sorry for a response from a way earlier post…

 

[bjcros87]

piscotikus:

John 20:21-23:
(Jesus) said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you.” And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the holy Spirit.
Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained.”

Jesus established Confession through the apostles and the Holy Spirit in these verses. Hope this helps.

God Bless!!

PS I just realized I was only reading from the end of the 1st page of this thread, sorry for a response from a way earlier post…

No problem. Thank you for your advice. I’ve moved on from that issue. However, I haven’t gone to confession.

 

[Lillith]

bjcros:

The problem that I have is that it is necessaery to be forgiven. What I understand is that if I ask to be forgiven from God then I am. I see where your coming from.

BJcros…

I sense your sincerity, and I have to tell you it is very touching…I will pray for you!

Yes, of course you can go straight to God with your sins and be forgiven!! Jesus wants us to confess to men so that we will truly sit down, ten commandments in hand, and think about our sins. I know protestants ask forgiveness, but when was the last time most sat down and thought…I was gossiping last tuesday, I was jealous of my neighbors new car, I was really angry and in a fit of rage and didn’t forgive yet…do you get my point? I am sure some do…but I know most don’t…especially the once saved always saved sect.

Jesus wants us to be as much like himself as we can obtain…but human nature as it is we don’t like to look at our sins unless told to…and so Jesus…God himself set it up so that we must…It makes obtaining goodness so much easier…it really is a useful tool.

I will pray for you…I like your honesty

 

[Lillith]

bjcros87:

Purgatory is one of the things I have issues with. but maybe I will.

Start a thread about purgatory…the evidence will astound you!

 

[Huiou_Theou]

The Council declares
Quote:
CANON IX.-If any one saith, that by faith alone the impious is justified; in such wise as to mean, that nothing else is required to co-operate in order to the obtaining the grace of Justification, and that it is not in any way necessary, that he be prepared and disposed by the movement of his own will; let him be anathema.
Obtained from history.hanover.edu/texts/trent/ct06.html
This curses those who believe in sola fide. Is this not a correct interpretation?

BJ. Probably not a correct interpretation, although it is possible under certain circumstances to understand it that way.

Anathema, as I have already said, is not a curse in and of itself.
It is the allowing of one to depart from the catholic church (which implies they were under its authority to begin with).
I will point out the word ‘curse’ shows up nowhere in the link you gave me. Trent does not bother with defining Anathema.

As far as , Anathema (not cursing), sola fide – the definition you quote is not that simple. A catechuman (unbaptized) who believes in God and is in preperation for baptism has a baptism of Desire should they die. E.G. it is only faith which saves them.
A Catholic does believe this and is not condemned by the canon.

So when you say it condemns ‘sola fide’, I don’t see those words there (exactly). It might be correct (depends) , but it also is nuanced and very restricted. These are legal definitions of the Catholic Church you are reading in Trent. They are phrased carefully.

The barrier between protestants and Catholics is very much a language barrier. If you do not speak the Catholic language, you will find it difficult to understand the rule. Cutting and pasting things out of context is one sure way to misunderstand Catholic teaching.
( It’s not sola Trent anymore than sola scriptura ).
As a legal document, the council needs to be understood in light of canon law (I doubt you are a canon lawyer).

Again, I reccommend you read the catechism on the relationship of the protestant churches to the Catholic one, or even on the specific topic “No salvation outside the church”.

CCC Catholic Church / Salvation of Protestants.

 

[Huiou_Theou]

And one extra note;
since you are indicating that you are not a Catholic, and hence already outside the visible catholic church, not formally ejected by a bishop, etc. the canon almost certanly has little effect on you, except to show what a Cathloic must not believe.

Don’t expect to be allowed to preach in a Catholic church or anything though

 

[justified]

Firstly I would like to say that it has been a pleasure and honor debating with you all. I have learned alot about the Catholic faith and I respect it(despite our differences). Many of you have heard what I have to say under different aliases such as bjcros, and bjcros87. You also will know that I have been suspended. I don’t know how long suspensions last, frankly I don’t care. I still don’t know why I was suspended, so I can only speculate. I am tired of being suspended. Only for voicing my opinion, and I don’t think I was being disrespectful. To anyone I have offended I apologize, it was not my intention. As I have been suspended numerous times, and because I don’t know why I have decided to leave this forum and no longer come back. Before I go to all those who suspended I say this, you are hypocritical especially if you suspended me for the reason I think you did. I wanted to discuss your faith and learn about it, and work through my frustrations. Many people have replied to my posts saying that I am earnestly seeking which is true. I will admit when I first started to post I was out to disprove Catholics. However, I have grown to respect your faith. Don’t bother suspending me(unless you really want). I am no longer going to come here. Because you don’t want me here and you refuse to discuss the issues but rather suspend me. Peace be with you all, and God Bless.

 

[Mickey]

justified:

Firstly I would like to say that it has been a pleasure and honor debating with you all. I have learned alot about the Catholic faith and I respect it(despite our differences). Many of you have heard what I have to say under different aliases such as bjcros, and bjcros87. You also will know that I have been suspended. I don’t know how long suspensions last, frankly I don’t care. I still don’t know why I was suspended, so I can only speculate. I am tired of being suspended. Only for voicing my opinion, and I don’t think I was being disrespectful. To anyone I have offended I apologize, it was not my intention. As I have been suspended numerous times, and because I don’t know why I have decided to leave this forum and no longer come back. Before I go to all those who suspended I say this, you are hypocritical especially if you suspended me for the reason I think you did. I wanted to discuss your faith and learn about it, and work through my frustrations. Many people have replied to my posts saying that I am earnestly seeking which is true. I will admit when I first started to post I was out to disprove Catholics. However, I have grown to respect your faith. Don’t bother suspending me(unless you really want). I am no longer going to come here. Because you don’t want me here and you refuse to discuss the issues but rather suspend me. Peace be with you all, and God Bless.

May the peace and love of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ be with you always.
smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/8/8_3_15.gif
prayers and blessings,
Mickey