sola scriptura

[PaulinePresbytr]

So if the Bible contains all information that we need to believe in order to be saved then why is there any need for Tradition (with a big T)? You have me completley confused at this point.

Because it is important to have an understanding of the truth beyond simply those doctrines needed for salvation. Hence the magesterium

 

[PaulinePresbytr]

So if the Bible contains all information that we need to believe in order to be saved then why is there any need for Tradition (with a big T)? You have me completley confused at this point.

But all quibbling over a definition aside, our understanding that this is the traditional understanding of it can help us make inroads and eventually lead the confessional Lutherans and conservative Presbyterians back to the Catholic Church.

 

[CopticChristian]

But all quibbling over a definition aside, our understanding that this is the traditional understanding of it can help us make inroads and eventually lead the confessional Lutherans and conservative Presbyterians back to the Catholic Church.

Pauline,

The real problem is not what someone believes rather what that belief causes someone to do. It is upside down in its approach and the understanding has to do with an incongruence with the world as we know it. It is an immigration problem.

We live in the United States, you pay taxes, have rights and responsibilities and you must know certain things…

If someone wants to become a Citizen of the United States they have to fulfill certain responsibilities to be considered a candidate for citizenship…

In order to apply for U.S. citizenship, you must meet the following requirements:
• Be at least 18 years old
• Have had a valid Green Card at least five years. If you are married to U.S. citizen you may apply after three years with a valid Green Card. Or, if you have served in the United States armed forces during war, you may apply for U.S. citizenship without first obtaining a Green Card if you were in the United States upon enlistment into the U.S. military.
• Have maintained continuous residence in the United States for at least five years (or three years if you are married to a U.S. citizen)
• Have been physically present in the United States for at least two and a half years (or one and half years if you are married to a U.S. citizen)
• Have lived in the state where the Form N-400 is submitted for at least three months
• Be able to read, write and speak English
• **Have a general knowledge of the fundamentals of U.S. history and government **• Be a person of good moral character and willing to abide by the principles of the U.S. Constitution.

You cannot become a citizen until you know about what it is you are becoming a citizen of and here is where Sola Scriptura fails and is incongruent…

The Kingdom of God welcomes all who comes and while in the United States when comparing and contrasting the Protestant approach to the Kingdom and the Catholic approach to the Kingdom…Sola Scriptura is the cause of many things besides understanding…

Sola Scriptura causes people to act in a way that contradicts what is known in the world and in fact contrasts with becoming a citizen of the United States…it is out of synch with reality…While believing that The Bible is all you need, and the Bible is the Word of God, there is no way to validate that claim and yet what happens is as follows…

Sola Scriptura is a belief that leads people into communities where they are

Saved/Protestant theology
Go to Bible Study/Protestant
Go to a Bible believing Church/Protestant
Get involved in ministries/Protestant
A general knowledge and fundamentals of Church history and Ecclesiology is taught randomly and dependent on the form of Protestant thought delivered.

Until their lives are consumed by Protestant thought….us vs them. I have been involved in these groups and I know from first hand experience.

Now any candidate should wonder, as all citizens considered for immigration to the United States are required to do…what is the history of the Church and what is the Ecclesiology…how do I know and how can it be proved that this book is the Word of God? Where did it come from? Why is this not the first and foremost piece of information I am taught and can be solidly ground in?

Compare and contrast that with the Catholic approach to citizenship in the Kingdom…

RCIA
An informed decision
Catechesis
Understanding Church History and Ecclesiology
Full knowledge of what you are getting involved with
Baptism
Participation

Catechesis in then ongoing and when comparing it to what is known about how one becomes a citizen of the United States…there is congruence and the ability to provide evidence of the history of and the reality of what is taught…that can be confirmed in history that includes the Bible…not the Bible alone…

This is an immigration problem that Sola Scriptura cannot solve.

 

[Isaiah45_9]

This is an immigration problem that Sola Scriptura cannot solve.

:ehh:

 

[CopticChristian]

:ehh:

Isaiah,

Metaphor:ehh:

 

[SteveVH]

Because it is important to have an understanding of the truth beyond simply those doctrines needed for salvation. Hence the magesterium

But you have not yet established that the Bible contains all that is necessary for salvation. Until you do that, you have no premise on which to stand.

 

[Isaiah45_9]

Isaiah,

Metaphor:ehh:

:doh2:

 

[batman1973]

But you have not yet established that the Bible contains all that is necessary for salvation. Until you do that, you have no premise on which to stand.

But, it does, if you’d read it, especially the new testament.

 

[PRmerger]

But, it does, if you’d read it, especially the new testament.

But how do you know it has everything that you need? Where did you get that idea from?

 

[batman1973]

But how do you know it has everything that you need? Where did you get that idea from?

The Holy Spirit. He directs us in all truth. Says so in the Bible:

“However when He, the Spirit of Truth, is come, He will guide you into all truth; for He shall not speak from Himself, but whatsoever He shall hear, that shall He speak; and He will show you things to come.” John 16:31

From Psalm 19:"7 The law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul; the testimony of the Lord is sure, making wise the simple.

8 The statutes of the Lord are right, rejoicing the heart; the commandment of the Lord is pure, enlightening the eyes.

9 The fear of the Lord is clean, enduring for ever; the judgments of the Lord are true and righteous altogether"

Romans 15:4:“For whatsoever things were written in times past, were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the Scriptures might have hope.”

 

[PRmerger]

The Holy Spirit. He directs us in all truth. Says so in the Bible:

Indeed.

But it doesn’t say that everything we need to know for our salvation was contained in the written word.

That’s just something you heard someone else say, who heard someone else say, who heard someone else say…

but where they got that idea from originally, who knows? They certainly did not read it in the Bible!

“However when He, the Spirit of Truth, is come, He will guide you into all truth; for He shall not speak from Himself, but whatsoever He shall hear, that shall He speak; and He will show you things to come.” John 16:31

Amen!

But nothing is mentioned about Scripture there.

From Psalm 19:"7 The law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul; the testimony of the Lord is sure, making wise the simple.

Indeed.

Nothing here about Scripture either. :nope:

8 The statutes of the Lord are right, rejoicing the heart; the commandment of the Lord is pure, enlightening the eyes.

9 The fear of the Lord is clean, enduring for ever; the judgments of the Lord are true and righteous altogether"

To be sure!

But does it state that statutes are to be found only in Scripture? :nope:

Romans 15:4:“For whatsoever things were written in times past, were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the Scriptures might have hope.”

Absolutely!

But it doesn’t say that everything was contained in the Scriptures.

And, even if we concede that this verse states that, what this verse would be proclaiming would be Sola Old Testament, right? For these “things [that] were written in times past” can only be referring to the OT, yes?

And I am certain you that couldn’t possibly be a Sola Old Testament advocate!

 

[guanophore]

But, it does, if you’d read it, especially the new testament.

Batman, you can be assurred that we do read our Bibles, especially our NT. You can also be certain that NOWHERE in the NT does it say that the Bible is all we need. On the contrary, the NT testifies that Jesus founded One Church, and that He entrusted the office of Teaching to that One Church, and that He gave that Church the authority to govern. He did not give this to a book.

You have come to the conclusion that Scripture is the highest authority from a false premise.

The Holy Spirit. He directs us in all truth. Says so in the Bible:

“However when He, the Spirit of Truth, is come, He will guide you into all truth; for He shall not speak from Himself, but whatsoever He shall hear, that shall He speak; and He will show you things to come.” John 16:31

This promise was made to the One Church, founded by Christ. It does not apply to those who separate themselves from that Church.

From Psalm 19:"7 The law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul; the testimony of the Lord is sure, making wise the simple.

8 The statutes of the Lord are right, rejoicing the heart; the commandment of the Lord is pure, enlightening the eyes.

9 The fear of the Lord is clean, enduring for ever; the judgments of the Lord are true and righteous altogether"

Romans 15:4:“For whatsoever things were written in times past, were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the Scriptures might have hope.”

Yes the Scriptures are inspired, authorative, inerrant and we highly prize them as the Revelation of god. However, none of these verses support your premise that all we need is contained in Scripture. In fact, if your conclusion were true, it would mean Jesus wasted his time and effort founding a Church, since it is unncecessary.

The Scriptures are not “the perfect” that is to come. That is the second coming of Christ. when He comes again, we will no longer need the Scriptures.

 

[pablope]

The Holy Spirit. He directs us in all truth. Says so in the Bible:

[Romans 15:4:“For whatsoever things were written in times past, were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the Scriptures might have hope.”

Sure…the HS directs us…but where does He direct us to get the truth from?

In the individual? which of the thousand denominations? How many truths are there?

Is there a thousand truths or only one?
[/quote]

 

[batman1973]

Sure…the HS directs us…but where does He direct us to get the truth from?

In the individual? which of the thousand denominations? How many truths are there?

Is there a thousand truths or only one?

Sighs He get the truth from the source. That would be God. There is one truth. God. He directs all individuals to truth. NOT to one demonination such as yours. Sorry to disappoint.

 

[batman1973]

Indeed.

But it doesn’t say that everything we need to know for our salvation was contained in the written word.

That’s just something you heard someone else say, who heard someone else say, who heard someone else say…

but where they got that idea from originally, who knows? They certainly did not read it in the Bible!

Amen!

But nothing is mentioned about Scripture there.

Indeed.

Nothing here about Scripture either. :nope:

To be sure!

But does it state that statutes are to be found only in Scripture? :nope:

Absolutely!

But it doesn’t say that everything was contained in the Scriptures.

And, even if we concede that this verse states that, what this verse would be proclaiming would be Sola Old Testament, right? For these “things [that] were written in times past” can only be referring to the OT, yes?

And I am certain you that couldn’t possibly be a Sola Old Testament advocate!

I really hated to paste this, because of who wrote it,and while I don’t agree with everything he “writes” (I do use that term loosly, because he is a sensationalist) I do agree 100% with what Matt Slick says here:
“It is not required of Scripture to have a statement to the effect, “The Bible alone is to be used for all spiritual truth,” in order for sola scriptura to be true. Many doctrines in the Bible are not clearly stated, yet they are believed and taught by the church. For example, there is no statement in the Bible that says there is a Trinity, or that Jesus has two natures (God and man), or that the Holy Spirit is the third person in the Godhead. Yet, each of the statements is considered true doctrine within Christianity, being derived from biblical references. So, for the Catholic to require the Protestant to supply chapter and verse to prove Sola Scriptura is valid, is not necessarily consistent with biblical exegetical principles, of which they themselves approve when examining such doctrines as the Trinity, the hypostatic union, etc.”

 

[PRmerger]

I really hated to paste this, because of who wrote it,and while I don’t agree with everything he “writes” (I do use that term loosly, because he is a sensationalist) I do agree 100% with what Matt Slick says here:
“It is not required of Scripture to have a statement to the effect, “The Bible alone is to be used for all spiritual truth,” in order for sola scriptura to be true. Many doctrines in the Bible are not clearly stated, yet they are believed and taught by the church. For example, there is no statement in the Bible that says there is a Trinity, or that Jesus has two natures (God and man), or that the Holy Spirit is the third person in the Godhead. Yet, each of the statements is considered true doctrine within Christianity, being derived from biblical references. So, for the Catholic to require the Protestant to supply chapter and verse to prove Sola Scriptura is valid, is not necessarily consistent with biblical exegetical principles, of which they themselves approve when examining such doctrines as the Trinity, the hypostatic union, etc.”

Fair enough.

Then do you allow Catholics the same paradigm?

You have no objection to purgatory, the Immaculate Conception, the Assumption of Mary. because it is not required of Scripture to have a statement to this effect?

 

[batman1973]

Fair enough.

Then do you allow Catholics the same paradigm?

You have no objection to purgatory, the Immaculate Conception, the Assumption of Mary. because it is not required of Scripture to have a statement to this effect?

Of course! I’m trying not to be that narrow minded anymore.

 

[JonNC]

Fair enough.

Then do you allow Catholics the same paradigm?

You have no objection to purgatory, the Immaculate Conception, the Assumption of Mary. because it is not required of Scripture to have a statement to this effect?

I see no harm to the Gospel that one might believe these as a pious personal belief.
OTOH, Lutherans would have an objection to these being made articles of faith.

Jon

 

[Porknpie]

Sighs He get the truth from the source. That would be God. There is one truth. God. He directs all individuals to truth. NOT to one demonination such as yours. Sorry to disappoint.

Bat, my friend…scripture says that the Church is the Pillar and Foundation of Truth and Christ sent the Holy Spirit to guide his Church to all Truth. Only question then is what does church mean. Individuals have to go to the Church for instruction and teaching. No where in the bible does it say Churches.

We can look at this Catholic Church and writers in the Catholic Church to get their understanding. Augustine below,same year as bible canon set.

“For in the Catholic Church, not to speak of the purest wisdom, to the knowledge of which a few spiritual, men attain in this life…–not to speak of this wisdom, which you do not believe to be in the Catholic Church, there are many other things which most justly keep me in her bosom. The consent of peoples and nations…so does her authority…the succession of priests…[a]nd so, lastly, does the name itself of Catholic, which, not without reason, amid so many heresies, the Church has thus retained; so that, though all heretics wish to be called Catholics, yet when a stranger asks where the Catholic Church meets, no heretic will venture to point to his own chapel or house. Such then in number and importance are the precious ties belonging to the Christian name which keep a believer in the Catholic Church…**Now if the truth is so clearly proved as to leave no possibility of doubt, it must be set before all the things that keep me in the Catholic Church…**For my part, I should not believe the gospel except as moved by the authority of the Catholic Church…for it was through the Catholics that I got my faith in it; and so, whatever you bring from the gospel will no longer have any weight with me. Wherefore, if no clear proof of the apostleship of Manichaeus is found in the gospel, I will believe the Catholics rather than you.” Augustine, Against the Epistle of Manichaeus, 4:5,5:6 (A.D 397).

Follow Augustine’s words…

 

[joe370]

I see no harm to the Gospel that one might believe these as a pious personal belief.
OTOH, Lutherans would have an objection to these being made articles of faith.

Jon

Hey Jon. Regarding the following quote:

I understand that Christians belonging to the Lutheran Church reject purgatory and the IC etc., in terms of being made articles of faith, but why? Logically, the same could be justified regarding the Holy Trinity, Jesus having two natures (God and man), or the Holy Spirit being the third person in the Godhead. How do Christians belonging to the Lutheran church go about making the distinction between the Immaculate Conception and the Holy Trinity, in terms of being an article of faith, both of which are not explicitly spelled out within the pages of sacred scripture? From a sola scriptura perspective, (including the various ways SS is interpreted) I have never undetsood the basis for rejecting the IC and embracing the hypostatic union or the Holy Trinity. Your thoughts brother…?

“It is not required of Scripture to have a statement to the effect, “The Bible alone is to be used for all spiritual truth,” in order for sola scriptura to be true. Many doctrines in the Bible are not clearly stated, yet they are believed and taught by the church. For example, there is no statement in the Bible that says there is a Trinity, or that Jesus has two natures (God and man), or that the Holy Spirit is the third person in the Godhead. Yet, each of the statements is considered true doctrine within Christianity, being derived from biblical references. So, for the Catholic to require the Protestant to supply chapter and verse to prove Sola Scriptura is valid, is not necessarily consistent with biblical exegetical principles, of which they themselves approve when examining such doctrines as the Trinity, the hypostatic union, etc.”