sola scriptura

[JonNC]

So what about the norm itself? Where does that come from? Is that in the Bible? Did someone make it up ?

I don’t understand your questions. Please elaborate.

Jon

 

[pablope]

And who is the authority to determine what is apostolic teaching? You? a Church? Which church?

That is not how evidence works, pablope. The one making the positive claim has the burden of providing evidence that supports the claim. If you want to claim any doctrine is apostolic, you have to show that it is.

The burden is on you to show it is not.

Can you explaint this…How can the Catholic faith contradict a book which it compiled, sifted through several hundred writings, canonized, read in the liturgy during the Mass, and used as a teaching tool since its compilation?

Quote:
Q: But, where is your authority, in the first place, to make such a determination?

Response: The truth.

How does the truth give you such authority? And how will you define that Truth?

Quote:
Now, you are imposing a condition. Where is this written anywhere? Where is this contained anywhere, oral or written?

What, that you have to provide evidence for a truth claim?

Sorry…you lost me here…what are you trying to say?

 

[pablope]

That isn’t a rational way to determine truth, Coptic. The obsession with infallibility in order to prove or disprove something is a standard that is simply illogical. One can think of some pretty bizarre scenarios that that kind of an argument can be made to apply to.

GB…why is it illogical?

How can you tell which is error and which is not, if there is no one who is infallible?

Well…let us take your pastor…do you believe everything he tells you every Sunday?

How can you tell whether what he is telling his congregation…if there is error or not?

 

[Porknpie]

GB…why is it illogical?Well…let us take your pastor…do you believe everything he tells you every Sunday?

And if you don’t like what your pastor says, go to another church and to another pastor … and yet to another church and pastor if you don’t like that answer. The truth is elusive and rests with the individual.

Yet scripture is clear, Christ send the Holy Spirit to his church, to guide it to all truth, this Church being the Catholic Church. We can see this in the words of St. Ignatius, a disciple of St. John, who was taught by Jesus.

"See that ye all follow the bishop, even as Christ Jesus does the Father, and the presbytery as ye would the apostles. Do ye also reverence the deacons, as those that carry out the appointment of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is [administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude also be; by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church." Ignatius of Antioch, Epistle to the Smyrneans, 8:2 (c. A.D. 110).

This Catholic Church, established by Christ was of one faith…

“[N]or does it consist in this, that he should again falsely imagine, as being above this [fancied being], a Pleroma at one time supposed to contain thirty, and at another time an innumerable tribe of Aeons, as these teachers who are destitute of truly divine wisdom maintain; while the Catholic Church possesses one and the same faith throughout the whole world, as we have already said.” Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 1:10,3 (A.D. 180).

…and of all Truth

“Concerning this Holy Catholic Church Paul writes to Timothy, ‘That thou mayest know haw thou oughtest to behave thyself in the House of God, which is the Church of the Living God, the pillar and ground of the truth’” Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lectures,18:25(A.D. 350).

Catholic Church = House of God = Church of the Living God = Pillar and Ground of Truth

Now (if you could), go back and tell Cyril that the body and blood of Jesus in the Eucharist is symbolic and not the resurrected Lord, Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity…he would tell you that you were not in the House of God nor in the Church of the Living God.

Still the Catholic Catechism says that we are Christians together through Baptism, however the “fullness” of Truth is lacking in our separated brethren (and I am not saying we are blood relatives). For me, I will listen to and follow the OHCAC and not listen to the theology of any one pastor and pray for the unity as seen in and described in the early OHCAC.

 

[CopticChristian]

That isn’t a rational way to determine truth, Coptic. The obsession with infallibility in order to prove or disprove something is a standard that is simply illogical. One can think of some pretty bizarre scenarios that that kind of an argument can be made to apply to.

Gaelic,

Who do you say that I am? Is is something you know by reason, something you are obsessed with by argument, proven, logical, bizarre?

15He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?” 16Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” 17And Jesus said to him, “**Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. **18“I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it. 19“I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven.”

It is not by reason, not by argument, but by the gift of Faith that these things are revealed and it is a gift, that all that have been baptized into His death and life have obtained because on your own you can do nothing…

It is bizarre, it is irrational, it is unreasonable, it is not arguable…but it is what it is and accepted because by the gift that your are given you can proclaim…that Jesus is Lord, and that He founded a Church and there are stiff necked people that do not listen, that do not follow and you don’t have to say in your heart must I go up to heaven or ascend into the abyss to get the answer by no means, it is near in the mouth and the heart, that all that is necessary is to say that by grace we have been saved, through Faith working in Love and our Father has not abandoned us because He said He would and He did build a Church that spawned the written word of God held together by all that he told the Apostles.

 

[Eufrosnia]

I don’t understand your questions. Please elaborate.

Jon

Well, if I understand, you state that the Bible is the highest authority. My question is where do you get that specific truth from?

Because I am not aware of it being in the Bible. But even if it did, you would still need to arrive at the truth that the Bible has any authority. So this means that in order for you to even come to realize that the Bible has any authority, there must be some other authority (equal or higher) that must be accepted, no? This authority would be the one that made such pronouncements as “Bible IS the word of God” or “Bible IS the highest authority”.

What I am asking is that how did you come to accept that authority and what it might be?

Or are you saying that it is intuitive to anyone that

1. Bible IS the word of God
2. Bible IS the highest authority

 

[Gaelic_Bard]

And who is the authority to determine what is apostolic teaching? You? a Church? Which church?

History.

The burden is on you to show it is not.

Yeah? So if I claim that the easter bunny is part of apostolic tradition, the burden is on you to prove it’s not?

Can you explaint this…How can the Catholic faith contradict a book which it compiled, sifted through several hundred writings, canonized, read in the liturgy during the Mass, and used as a teaching tool since its compilation?

Do you believe the Orthodox were part of that church?

 

[Gaelic_Bard]

Gaelic,

Who do you say that I am? Is is something you know by reason, something you are obsessed with by argument, proven, logical, bizarre?

It is not by reason, no by argument, but by the gift of Faith that these things are revealed and it is a gift, that all that have been baptized into His death and life have obtained because on your own you can do nothing…

It is bizarre, it is irrational, it is unreasonable, it is not arguable…but it is what it is and accepted because by the gift that your are given you can proclaim…that Jesus is Lord, and that He founded a Church and there are stiff necked people that do not listen, that do not follow and you don’t have to say in your heart must I go up to heaven or ascend into the abyss to get the answer by no means, it is near in the mouth and the heart, that all that is necessary is to say that by grace we have been saved, through Faith working in Love and our Father has not abandoned us because He said He would and He did build a Church that spawned the written word of God held together by all that he told the Apostles.

I am not talking about the rationality or reasonableness of the claim, Coptic. I am talking about the unreasonableness of determining if the claim is true. In other words, the resurrection defies logic. What doesn’t defy logic is how we can determine if He did or not.

 

[PRmerger]

And if you don’t like what your pastor says, go to another church and to another pastor … and yet to another church and pastor if you don’t like that answer. The truth is elusive and rests with the individual.

Indeed. This is the essence of creating a god in one’s own image, is it not? We decide what we want God to be saying, then find a pastor who says what we want…

rather than finding the Church that Christ established, and then conforming our views to Christ’s, whether it meets our own interpretation or not.

 

[CopticChristian]

10262566]History.

Yeah? So if I claim that the easter bunny is part of apostolic tradition, the burden is on you to prove it’s not?

**Do you believe the Orthodox were part of that church?/**QUOTE]

Gaelic,

There is no one righteous no not one, God looks down from heaven, will those evil doers never cease as they eat up my people like bread…we are the bread and the bread is made up of many parts…

The One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church is

Oriental Orthodox, Eastern Orthodox, Catholic Latin/East, all baptized in the trinitarian formula…

this bread is not rising, this bread is still baking, this bread is not forming, do we blame the clay, the maker of the clay or the one that molds the clay…? by no means…

Squabbling amongst ourselves those that lack the fullness of truth, like those that follow John Wesley…are truly Christian and do not add to the deposit of Faith and that would include yourself…however

The Catholic Church retains the structures of episcopal leadership and sacramental life that are the gift of Christ to his Church (cf. CCC, nos. 765, 766) and that date back to apostolic times. At the same time, the Catholic Church recognizes that the Holy Spirit uses other churches and ecclesial communities “as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church” (CCC, no. 819; LG, no. 8). **Depending on what and how much of the elements of sanctincation and truth (UR, no. 3) these communities have retained, they have a certain though imperfect com¬munion with the Catholic Church. **There are also real differences. In some cases “there are very weighty differences not only of a historical, sociological, psychological and cultural character, but especially in the interpretation of revealed truth” (UR, no. 19). (The word church applies to those bodies of Christians who have a valid episcopal leadership or hierarchy, while the phrase ecclesial communities refers to those bodies of Christians that do not have an apostolic hierarchy.)

The Church acknoweldges and I accept that there are elements of sanctity in these communities including yours and while you bring no new Revelation, by your fruits you shall know them and when there are those that are

Professing Faith
Sacramentally involved, even if is only two…
Modeling Christ and showing the fruits of the gifts they are given by God
Praying

The Church acknoweldges this as do I however to say that the Scripture is the highest authority is to suggest a new Private Revelation and that would be considered inconsistent with the deposit of Faith. There is no argument. It must be rejected outright. The New World Translation, Oneness Pentacostals and the Book of Mormon would include similar Private Revelation that are rejected as inconsistent with the deposit of Faith. Who wants to argue this?

Faith is the confidence of things hoped for and the substance of things not seen…so this Faith is unshakeable because it is revealed and as you point out HISTORICAL…for there is no history that would cause me to accept the Bible alone, since that Bible was the Vulgate, stolen and translated without permission, then permutated into something similar not necessarily consistent with Divine Revelation as held in the Oriental Orthodox, Eastern Orthodox and Catholic Latin/East.

The Anglican Church was Catholic and deviated based on many things including Divorce and Adultery. John Smyth was ordained an Anglican and is one founder of the Baptists. This is your history. Baptists are the children of Divorce. Do you deny this? Do you find it odd that you find yourself on CAF, with elements of the Parents you never knew in dialogue sharing similar beliefs? Do you believe it is because you have truths we have not heard having never separated from the family?

I appreciate you read what you have, believe what you have, however it is not consistent with the deposit of Faith revealed. The burden, on this CAF, is to preach it and the burden for those that reject it is to accept that there is a Church that has convinced the likes of Henry Neuman, an Anglican, one of the greatest Theoolgians, that resisted acceptance of the Church, Scott Hahn a brilliant Presbyterian minister that opposed and taught against the Church and now accepts it…

Are you this brilliant? Have you put as much time and study into researching what it is you refuse to accept?

or

Do you just want to trade Scripture versus and then draw the same conclusion and go your merry way believing you have proved a point you believe based on reason?

 

[Gaelic_Bard]

Gaelic,

There is no one righteous no not one, God looks down from heaven, will those evil doers never cease as they eat up my people like bread…we are the bread and the bread is made up of many parts…

The One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church is

Oriental Orthodox, Eastern Orthodox, Catholic Latin/East, all baptized in the trinitarian formula…

this bread is not rising, this bread is still baking, this bread is not forming, do we blame the clay, the maker of the clay or the one that molds the clay…? by no means…

Squabbling amongst ourselves those that lack thr fullness of truth, like those that follow John Wesley…are truly Christian and do not add to the deposit of Faith and that would include yourself…however

The Church acknoweldges and I accept that there are elements of sanctity in these communities including yours and while you bring no new Revelation, by your fruits you shall know them and when there are those that are

Professing Faith
Sacramentally involved, even if is only two…
Modeling Christ and showing the fruits of the gifts they are given by God
Praying

The Church acknoweldges this as do I however to say that the Scripture is the highest authority is to suggest a new Private Revelation and that would be considered inconsistent with the deposit of Faith. There is no argument. It must be rejected outright. The New World Translation, Oneness Pentacostals and the Book of Mormon would include similar Private Revelation that are rejected as inconsistent with the deposit of Faith. Who wants to argue this?

Faith is the confidence of things hoped for and the substance of things not seen…so this Faith is unshakeable because it is revealed and as you point out HISTORICAL…for there is no history that would cause me to accept the Bible alone, since that Bible was the Vulgate, stolen and translated without permission, then permutated into something similar not necessarily consistent with Divine Revelation as held in the Oriental Orthodox, Eastern Orthodox and Catholic Latin/East.

I appreciate you read what you have, believe what you have, however it is not consistent with the deposit of Faith revealed. The burden, on this CAF, is to preach it and the burden for those that reject it is to accept that there is a Church that has convinced the likes of Henry Neuman, an Anglican, one of the greatest Theoolgians, that resisted acceptance of the Church, Scott Hahn a brilliant Presbyterian minister that opposed and taught against the Church and now accepts it…

Are you this brilliant? Have you put as much time and study into researching what it is you refuse to accept?

or

Do you just want to trade Scripture versus and then draw the same conclusion and go your merry way believing you have proved a point you believe based on reason?

The question of whether or not the Orthodox church was part of the church that canonized the Scriptures is not directed to whether or not they are Christian.

The Mormons, JW’s…yeah I don’t want to argue that either. As far as I know neither you or I is claiming a different religious text that is inspired by God, other than the claim that you possess inspired revelation that is not in the Biblical record.

 

[CopticChristian]

I am not talking about the rationality or reasonableness of the claim, Coptic. I am talking about the unreasonableness of determining if the claim is true. In other words, the resurrection defies logic. What doesn’t defy logic is how we can determine if He did or not.

Gaelic,

Here is a thread on the CAF of “former Baptists” now Catholic…

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=9566042

Here is a conversion story of a Baptist now Catholic

freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1878315/posts

and here

whyimcatholic.com/index.php/conversion-stories/protestant-converts/baptist/item/73-baptist-convert-stacy-trasancos

Now please take a deep breath. Do not post Catholic now Baptist. If you want to do that then go to a Baptist site and do that. This is the CAF. I know this will take some effort on your part however resist the urge…

 

[PRmerger]

other than the claim that you possess inspired revelation that is not in the Biblical record.

Yep–and so do you, Gaelic. You claim that the canon of Scripture, which is not in the Biblical recrod, is part of inspired revelation, too. At least, you ought to claim this.

 

[CopticChristian]

The question of whether or not the Orthodox church was part of the church that canonized the Scriptures is not directed to whether or not they are Christian.

The Mormons, JW’s…yeah I don’t want to argue that either. As far as I know neither you or I is claiming a different religious text that is inspired by God, other than the claim that you possess inspired revelation that is not in the Biblical record.

Gaelic,

I do claim that you have a text that is not inspired. All you have is a translation and without authority, all you can do is claim that it is a translation…I provided the information in a thread you can go through here…

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=609262

ag.org/top/

ag.org/top/Beliefs/Position_P…_inerrancy.pdf

1. We refer to original autographs. While the science of textual criticism assures
   us of a trustworthy text, inerrancy can be claimed only for the original writings (Jeremiah
   36:2).

1. Since we do not have the original autographs, any doctrine of inerrancy is
   without value.

champs-of-truth.com/reform/STN_MBTU.PDF

No translation is perfect. It may even be persuasively argued that no exact
copies of the original autographs still exist. This view
has led to the deplorable situation where some “translations” have only
scant resemblance to the sacred truth enshrined in the Scriptures.

If no manuscript in the original language is a perfect reproduction of the original writings, then it is impossible for any translation from these imperfect manuscripts to be perfect.

I can conclude that there is no original Scripture, there are only translations, translations cannot be trusted and all we are left with Sola Translation.

You could not convince me that what you have is the Word of God based on this.

Jesus never promised Scholarship, Paul never said that Scholarship was the pillar and foundation of truth or that Scholarship was the mystery hidden for all ages…

You may want to consider changing your thinking and being transformed by the renewal of your mind…you can only claim Sola Translation as there is no original Scripture or authority for you to declare that it is Scripture…

 

[Gaelic_Bard]

Gaelic,

Here is a thread on the CAF of “former Baptists” now Catholic…

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=9566042

Here is a conversion story of a Baptist now Catholic

freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1878315/posts

and here

whyimcatholic.com/index.php/conversion-stories/protestant-converts/baptist/item/73-baptist-convert-stacy-trasancos

Now please take a deep breath. Do not post Catholic now Baptist. If you want to do that then go to a Baptist site and do that. This is the CAF. I know this will take some effort on your part however resist the urge…

Catholic now Baptist? Aroo?

 

[Porknpie]

as far as I know neither you or I is claiming a different religious text that is inspired by God, other than the claim that you possess inspired revelation that is not in the Biblical record.

Gaelic,

Here’s how we know … the Catholic Church being the Bride of Christ, the Pillar and Foundation of God’s Truth … whom Christ said he would be with until the end of time, protecting it faithfully on matters of faith and morals. It’s in the biblical record, you just need to switch glasses and stop reading it from a preconceived viewpoint.

I. THE APOSTOLIC TRADITION

75 “**Christ the Lord, in whom the entire Revelation of the most high God is summed up, commanded the apostles to preach the Gospel, **which had been promised beforehand by the prophets, and which he fulfilled in his own person and promulgated with his own lips. In preaching the Gospel, they were to communicate the gifts of God to all men. This Gospel was to be the source of all saving truth and moral discipline.”

In the apostolic preaching. . .

76 In keeping with the Lord’s command, the Gospel was handed on in two ways:

• orally “by the apostles who handed on, by the spoken word of their preaching, by the example they gave, by the institutions they established, what they themselves had received - whether from the lips of Christ, from his way of life and his works, or whether they had learned it at the prompting of the Holy Spirit”;

-** in writing** “by those apostles and other men associated with the apostles who, under the inspiration of the same Holy Spirit, committed the message of salvation to writing”.

.** . . continued in apostolic succession**

77 "In order that the full and living Gospel might always be preserved in the Church the apostles left bishops as their successors. They gave them their own position of teaching authority." Indeed, "the apostolic preaching, which is expressed in a special way in the inspired books, was to be preserved in a continuous line of succession until the end of time."

78 This living transmission, accomplished in the Holy Spirit, is called Tradition, since it is distinct from Sacred Scripture, though closely connected to it. Through Tradition, “the Church, in her doctrine, life and worship, perpetuates and transmits to every generation all that she herself is, all that she believes.” "The sayings of the holy Fathers are a witness to the life-giving presence of this Tradition, showing how its riches are poured out in the practice and life of the Church, in her belief and her prayer."

79 The Father’s self-communication made through his Word in the Holy Spirit, remains present and active in the Church: “God, who spoke in the past, continues to converse with the Spouse of his beloved Son. And the Holy Spirit, through whom the living voice of the Gospel rings out in the Church - and through her in the world - leads believers to the full truth, and makes the Word of Christ dwell in them in all its richness.”

 

[Gaelic_Bard]

Gaelic,

I do claim that you have a text that is not inspired. All you have is a translation and without authority, all you can do is claim that it is a translation…I provided the information in a thread you can go through here…

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=609262

I can conclude that there is no original Scripture, there are only translations, translations cannot be trusted and all we are left with Sola Translation.

You could not convince me that what you have is the Word of God based on this.

Jesus never promised Scholarship, Paul never said that Scholarship was the pillar and foundation of truth or that Scholarship was the mystery hidden for all ages…

You may want to consider changing your thinking and being transformed by the renewal of your mind…you can only claim Sola Translation as there is no original Scripture or authority for you to declare that it is Scripture…

I don’t believe the best way to have a discussion about these topics is for you to pull statements from websites and impute them to me as if they are de facto my position.

 

[CopticChristian]

Catholic now Baptist? Aroo?

Gaelic,

Catholic now Baptists are fullfilled Baptists. Come on over, sit awhile, take your shoes off, get comfortable, read with us, pray with us, have supper with us, and preach with us…you probably have better experience with the good preaching…but hey, I am Ok with that…

Don’t respond…think, meditate, not your will but thy will be done…

The river is deep and the wide, but it is fine on the other side…and when you look back you will see you were always there…

 

[Gaelic_Bard]

Gaelic,

Here’s how we know … the Catholic Church being the Bride of Christ, the Pillar and Foundation of God’s Truth … whom Christ said he would be with until the end of time, protecting it faithfully on matters of faith and morals. It’s in the biblical record, you just need to switch glasses and stop reading it from a preconceived viewpoint.

Thats an assertion, not evidence.

 

[CopticChristian]

I don’t believe the best way to have a discussion about these topics is for you to pull statements from websites and impute them to me as if they are de facto my position.

Gaelic,

These are Honest Protestants pointing out what is fact. Do you deny honesty? Do you deny fact?