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Novocastrian
Guest
Protestants should, and often do, recognise that the Bible itself is the prime example of tradition. The prophetic and apostolic writings, the oracles of God, handed down in the Church from generation to generation. What we protest against is tradition being separated from, or contrasted with, the Scriptures, as if the holy tradition of the Church could ever stand against itself. This is why we don’t like the two media of revelation theory of Rome, that Scripture and Tradition are independently, and each fully, the word of God.
I would consider that a different definition of Tradition than the one I refer to. As in most threads on this subject, the Rule and Norm section of the Epitome of the Formula of Concord goes through our understanding of how Tradition is a witness to the truth of scripture.
Further, the confessions are filled with examples of the use of Tradition to support our understanding of scripture, siting scripture, the historic Church, and Tradition, including the ECF’s.
Jon
N
Novocastrian
Guest
Sorry, just to be clear, I meant that as a supplement to the usual Lutheran understanding of tradition, not as an alternative definition.
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Truth_Faith13
Guest
Oh great…now I have that song in my head!Wheels on the bus go round and round…
LaughingBoy1503
Well-known member
Must I also literally hate my parents? Scripture can be confusing without someone to teach me its meaning. Who oh who will teach me… and the correct way
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aidanbradypop
Guest
heheheheheOh great…now I have that song in my head!
LaughingBoy1503
Well-known member
LOL. Yeah. I wonder when the wheels will fall off?Wheels on the bus go round and round…
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aidanbradypop
Guest
NEVER. lolLOL. Yeah. I wonder when the wheels will fall off?
I do believe that a thread on Sola Scriptura was the very fist one in the Non Catholic section lol.
TEC states this It is our foundation, understood through tradition and reason, containing all things necessary for salvation. Our worship is filled with Scripture from beginning to end.
Far from Scripture Alone yet realizing that we need Scripture as a foundation of out faith in Christ and the OHCAC.
P
PRmerger
Guest
Yep. There are a multitude of ways to understand that word.
That is why we always need a final arbiter to say, “Thus sayeth the Lord”.
Without that final arbiter you have the obscenity of tens of thousands of differing denominations, each reading the very same Bible (well, give or take 7 books) and coming to differing (and even contrary
) interpretations.Thanks to the rejection (tacit or blatant) of this final arbiter, we now have the chaos and confusion of what God wants regarding:
Attend weekly services, don’t have to go to Church
Baptism–immersion? sprinkling? sacrament? ordinance? adults only? infants only?
Can men and women sit together during services?
Charity or no charity (help one another or let them help
Church leadership, or no leadership
Death/Soul Sleep
Divorce
Drinking allowed, drinking not allowed)
Head coverings or no head coverings
Health and wealth gospel
Hell, or no hell
Homosexuality
Is God‘s Holy Name Jehovah
Is it permissible for women to teach Scripture?
Judge others, don’t judge others
Music or no music (Singing or no singing)
Once saved, always saved
Ordination
Predestination
Rapture
Sola scriptura/private interpretation
The Eucharist (Communion)
themselves)
Tongues (some believe others are not saved if they don’t speak in tongues)
Trinity vs. Unitarianism
What is original sin and its effects on humanity
What’s a sin, what is not a sin
When to celebrate the Lord’s Day
Women pastors, no women pastors
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PRmerger
Guest
But which Gospel? The one that says that baptism saves? Or the one that says it’s an ordinance?
The one that says that confession of mortal sins must be done with a priest? Or the one that says that this sacrament is un-biblical?
The one that says that divorce and re-marriage is adultery? OR the one that says that it’s just a second chance to be happy?
The one that says that Sunday is the Lord’s Day? Or the one that says that this is an unwarranted change catalyzed by the Evil One?
B
Bballer32
Guest
True that. Those “six-flags-over-Jesus” churches (This is what my Dad refers to non-denominational churchesWell, while Lutheranism dates back that far, virtually all other protestant communities are younger, and in some instances, far younger.
Jon
) have only been around for about 50 years or so haha
R
rfournier103
Guest
As in the case of Sola Fide, wouldn’t there be less confusion if it were called something else? Like; SCRIPTURA ULITMA? It would reduce the confusion…
Indeed. That’s why we have yet to reconcile. (sigh) It’s a never ending circle… Very sad. As always, who has the authority to interpret? Therein lies the rub…
Sounds good!
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Isaiah45_9
Guest
Yes, we can see how that goes:
Harold Camping
Westboro Baptist Church
Oneness Pentecostals
William Branham
Jim Jones
Edgar Whisenant
And countless many others, who have claimed this very thing you just posted here. This is exactly what Sola Scriptura does – makes the individual the authority on what the meaning of Scriptures is.
You only wish! You mean Christ did not choose 12 men? How about these Apostles – Did they chose more men?
Also, you do realize, you are a man as was Luther and all of us. That is precisely why Christ gave us a Church!
Hmmm, imperfectly united since ~1522AD. Not 33AD.
Like Camping, Branham, Jones and the others above? No thanks. You just demonstrated by your own words that Sola Scriptura is individual interpretation. Do you realize that you belong to a confessional Church that holds to traditions as well?
No, it hasn’t and it will never be because it’s not there. It is man made in the 1,500’s.
You have lost it! Show how each one of them teach Sola Scriptura.
No it has not.
Really? Are we coming this low now? I have a devotion to the Holy Spirit. Who did the Holy Spirit used to revealed the Canon to? Men. And the guys I mentioned earlier all claimed the Holy Spirit, as the countless denominations claim to hold Sola Scriptura do as well. It is a disgrace to Christians to throw around the Holy Spirit around like that…
There are countless man made pastors, or do you want to argue in favor of those I mentioned above?
What Sola Scriptura does is gives the indicidual the freedom to conform the Church to him. And not him to the Church. If a Church doesn’t interpret the Scriptures in a way that individual sees fit, the individual has the freedom to go to a different Church, or just plant a new Church where the individual can then mold the Scriptures to him. This is the historical proof of Sola Scriptura.
I’ll leave you with a poem from John Donne:
No man is an island,
Entire of itself,
Every man is a piece of the continent,
A part of the main.
If a clod be washed away by the sea,
Europe is the less.
As well as if a promontory were.
As well as if a manor of thy friend’s
Or of thine own were:
Any man’s death diminishes me,
Because I am involved in mankind,
And therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls;
It tolls for thee.
P
PRmerger
Guest
The appeal to the Bereans, if anything, proves too much. For if one accepts what the Bereans did, they searched the Old Testament to see if Paul’s teachings conformed to what they knew.
So it would be proving Sola Old Testament, if anything.
And did not the Ethiopian eunuch say exactly what the Church says regarding individual Christians’ attempts to interpret Scripture: how can I understand it, unless someone shows me?
That proves that we need “someone” (here, read: The CC) to show us how to read and understand the Scriptures.
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Isaiah45_9
Guest
Indeed, my friend. Funny thing is they both accepted the Gospel message without a Bible! Imagine that, lol.
Also, we don’t even know what compilation of Scriptures each used. As there was no definitive OT Canon.
But this is the Post-Christianity movement individual > Church. Anarchy at its best in the name of Scriptures… Christ have mercy on us.
R
Randy_Carson
Guest
Not really. The laws of entropy explain the perpetual fragmentation of Protestantism. What is not explained (by Protestants) is how the Catholic Church has continued in unbroken existence for 2,000 years despite every conceivable effort by man and hell to destroy it.
True, but not in the manner you believe.
The Catholic Church continues to teach the same things it has always taught with the same authority that it was given by Jesus as seen in the pages of Sacred Scripture. The fact that some have chosen to separate themselves from that authority in the 15th, 16th and 20th centuries does not change the course of the Barque of Peter in any way whatsoever.
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Randy_Carson
Guest
Anglicanism is shattered. Methodism is the fastest dying denomination in the US. The once-vaunted Southern Baptist Convention has splintered. How many varieties of Lutheran are there again?The Roman empire was considered unstoppable and collapsed after 503 years. The Protestant Churches are actually only at 497 years old, so there is still time
Protestantism has had 500 years to UNITE and has failed to do so because Protesting is in its DNA.
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Randy_Carson
Guest
Try that argument on a Baptist who also touts sola scriptura and see how far you get.
I happen to agree with your interpretation, but the Bible has not PROVEN the real presence…it supports the Chruch’s teaching of the real presence.
R
Randy_Carson
Guest
Dave Armstrong is a very capable apologist - fair and balanced as they say.Great posts Randy, along with # 213 and #214…they are very helpful! Thank you
:tiphat:
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