Sola Scriptura...

[meme1961]

Didn’t say anything about political.

If one believes that the invisible church is the only one then the authority of the Church to do anything would come into question. Right?

How so? Logically, the invisible Church is made visible in, at the very least, each believer.

For a Protestant to deny the authority of the Church is especially difficult to sustain, as a Protestant views himself as a priest, and thus, has the authority to act on behalf of the Church, as a priest of that Church.

To deny ONESELF the authority to act is to nullify one’s own validity as a priest, yes?

The problem with most non-Catholics is that they don’t truly understand the multi-modal nature of the Church. Yes, it has human beings in it, but it is not a human construct. Yes, human constructs are often times fatally flawed. Yet the Church is not a human construct, and moreover, God gave her special gifts and powers.

To judge the Church as “just another human construct” is to make the fundamental error of arguing from a false equivalence. Holy Mother Church has no equivalents.

 

[aidanbradypop]

How so? Logically, the invisible Church is made visible in, at the very least, each believer.

Right…the “invisible” is made visible by the believers.

For a Protestant to deny the authority of the Church is especially difficult to sustain, as a Protestant views himself as a priest, and thus, has the authority to act on behalf of the Church, as a priest of that Church.

Not sure they all believe that way as I do not believe that.

To deny ONESELF the authority to act is to nullify one’s own validity as a priest, yes?

Maybe

The problem with most non-Catholics is that they don’t truly understand the multi-modal nature of the Church. Yes, it has human beings in it, but it is not a human construct. Yes, human constructs are often times fatally flawed. Yet the Church is not a human construct, and moreover, God gave her special gifts and powers.

I would not disagree with this. Careful on the grouping all non Catholics in the same group.

To judge the Church as “just another human construct” is to make the fundamental error of arguing from a false equivalence. Holy Mother Church has no equivalents.

You have those non Catholics that believe the “Church” is merely the followers of Christ. You have other non Catholics that believe there is OHCAC but not only found just in the Roman Church.

 

[FathersKnowBest]

You have those non Catholics that believe the “Church” is merely the followers of Christ. You have other non Catholics that believe there is OHCAC but not only found just in the Roman Church.

Didn’t some wise person once say that a house divided against itself cannot stand?

 

[aidanbradypop]

Didn’t some wise person once say that a house divided against itself cannot stand?

Well a house can have many different ones, yet still remain one house.

 

[FathersKnowBest]

Well a house can have many different ones,

Not sure what this means. Rooms?

yet still remain one house.

Assuming you meant rooms, I’d agree.
However, this is a good analogy for such things as Jesuits, Carmelites, etc.
NOT protestant denominations which disagree with each other and with the OHCAC.
The rooms can’t be opposed to each other and still stand. At least according to Christ.

 

[specialone]

i suppose this discussion-- will always be as aspec–certainly with the ruling of the counsl of trent–

but i managed to get the baptism of the Holy Spirit – with power – in a non-catholic forum-- where as – as a "confirmed " 4th grader in elelementary catholic school-- non of the students - seemed to get any additional impart – with this ceremony…

the salvation is pretty clear-- Jesus breathed on his deciples and they received that level of Holy Spirit empowerment–

then he said – wait for the power of the Holy Spirit-

Father roberet Degrandis – seems to have a understanding-- of what the power of the spirit is–

Spiritual Warfare Prayer - by Father Robert DeGrandis, S.S.J.
copiosa.org/spirituality/spiritual_warfare.htm‎

Spiritual Warfare Prayer. by Father Robert DeGrandis, S.S.J… angelbar.gif (3645 bytes). Heavenly Father, I love You, I praise You, and I worship You. I thank You …

Forgiveness Prayer - Father Robert DeGrandis S.S.J. and Betty …
mp3pray.com/forgivenessprayer/‎

Forgiveness Prayer - From the book by Father Robert DeGrandis S.S.J. and Betty Tapscott: Forgiveness & Inner Healing; Twenty-fourth Printing September 2001 …

 

[aidanbradypop]

Not sure what this means. Rooms?

Yes I meant rooms. Sorry:blush: typing on a phone can be hard sometimes lol

Assuming you meant rooms, I’d agree.
However, this is a good analogy for such things as Jesuits, Carmelites, etc.
NOT protestant denominations which disagree with each other and with the OHCAC.
The rooms can’t be opposed to each other and still stand. At least according to Christ.

They do not disagree on Christ. He is the reason we are called Christian and live under one roof in one house. The Roman Church is a room in the house but not THE HOUSE. Orthodoxy believe they are the house as well so how can there be two houses if Catholicism teaches they are that house?

Maybe this is off topic…lol…this would be a good thread if it wants to split.

 

[Randy_Carson]

We believe that the authors of the NT books were inspired by the Holy Spirit.

What about when they preached?

Was it possible for Peter or Paul or John to teach error when they were instructing people about Jesus or interpreting OT prophecies that pertained to Him during their lifetimes?

 

[FathersKnowBest]

They do not disagree on Christ.

They disagree on what Christ taught.
Christ is important, we agree on that. Are His teachings also important?

He is the reason we are called Christian and live under one roof in one house. The Roman Church is a room in the house but not THE HOUSE.

This is an unsupported statment.

Orthodoxy believe they are the house as well so how can there be two houses if Catholicism teaches they are that house?

There can’t be. One has to be right, the other wrong.
But it’s still a red herring for people who follow neither Catholicism nor Orthodoxy.

 

[aidanbradypop]

They disagree on what Christ taught.
Christ is important, we agree on that. Are His teachings also important?

This is an unsupported statment.

There can’t be. One has to be right, the other wrong.
But it’s still a red herring for people who follow neither Catholicism nor Orthodoxy.

I would love to talk about this but do not wish to hijack the thread to start one and we can gladly continue.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Yes I meant rooms. Sorry:blush: typing on a phone can be hard sometimes lol

They do not disagree on Christ. He is the reason we are called Christian and live under one roof in one house. The Roman Church is a room in the house but not THE HOUSE. Orthodoxy believe they are the house as well so how can there be two houses if Catholicism teaches they are that house?

CS Lewis’ analogy was flawed, and it was discussed in Fr. Dwight Longenecker’s book, “More Christianity”. Longenecker was an Evangelical who became an Anglican…then a Catholic.

You are right that there is only one house - the Catholic Church. The “rooms” that you speak of are other buildings, rooms and outhouses that are connected in various ways to the main house. The Orthodox don’t get this, but neither do a lot of other folks.

 

[aidanbradypop]

CS Lewis’ analogy was flawed, and it was discussed in Fr. Dwight Longenecker’s book, “More Christianity”. Longenecker was an Evangelical who became an Anglican…then a Catholic.

You are right that there is only one house - the Catholic Church. The “rooms” that you speak of are other buildings, rooms and outhouses that are connected in various ways to the main house. The Orthodox don’t get this, but neither do a lot of other folks.

Not sure I like TEC being compared to an outhouse.

Of course you know I disagree with you by now and no need to write it over and over.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Not sure I like TEC being compared to an outhouse.

For you, I wrote, “other buildings” just to be safe.

 

[aidanbradypop]

For you, I wrote, “other buildings” just to be safe.

I was thinking more like a all season room.

 

[GaryTaylor]

I was thinking more like a all season room.

Holiday room with a Nativity?

 

[aidanbradypop]

Holiday room with a Nativity?

http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f...5-e7d5-4155-927e-e6112e3ead9f_zps9c5e225e.jpg

that’s cute

 

[GaryTaylor]

that’s cute

The pictorial segment is always interesting. I was thinking of the Duck man for our sola scriptura section, I like Uncle Sye. I thought better.

 

[aidanbradypop]

The pictorial segment is always interesting. I was thinking of the Duck man for our sola scriptura section, I like Uncle Sye. I thought better.

 

[hapaxparadidomi]

So maybe the difference is not in sola Scriptura per se…but interpretation of the bible/understanding. For example Protestants say praying to Mary is unbiblical, catholics say it is biblical. Both are basing their beliefs and understanding on the Bible…

Thoughts?

The problem is that Sola Scriptura prevents folks from addressing the real issue. To illustrate, there is no explanation in scripture that would inform one of how to use sola scriptura. I think you illustrated this point in your op when you made mention that traditions were not wrong, just that they needed to not contradict scripture. Protestants are confused over this topic and are unable to resolve it. Does the tradition have to come from scripture? Or just not contradict scripture? (there is a huge difference) Many protestants will say that a tradition must be sub-bliblical. Does this mean it must be derived from scripture? Is this an endorsement of extra-biblical data? Is that data binding? Is that data true? If it is not, then what? If it is true, then why are people not bound to it?

So there is not just an issue in how they interpret the bible. There is an issue in how they handle their extra biblical data period. they have no authority over it. The methodology for using sola scriptura is extra biblical data, and there is no authority to govern a person’s use of that data. Sola Scriptura itself is an extra-biblcal teaching on how to use scripture. No authority to govern that teaching. No standard of how one can “properly” follow that teaching.

 

[JonNC]

=meme1961;11514190]How so? Logically, the invisible Church is made visible in, at the very least, each believer.

That, and ISTM the Church is visible in word and sacrament

For a Protestant to deny the authority of the Church is especially difficult to sustain, as a Protestant views himself as a priest, and thus, has the authority to act on behalf of the Church, as a priest of that Church.

To deny ONESELF the authority to act is to nullify one’s own validity as a priest, yes?

Kind of an odd understanding of the priesthood of all believers, at least, I don’t get that sense from 1 Peter. I don’t have any authority within the Lutheran Church, not for doctrine anyway. And since I am not called and ordained, even the authority of the ministerial priesthood is not in my hands.

Jon