Sola Scriptura...

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It seems to me that in trying to understand Priests, presbyters etc… one I think needs to understand what the original authors intended and meant when they spoke and wrote. That, I think is not that easy to know as words take on different meanings over time and what a word meant at one tine or how a word was understood may now be or have a different definition or ever a broader meaning in that it can have several meanings in the context that it is found in. How it was understood at one time may not be the same as the modern use of the word and its meaning is now. yet, there is tradition in that a word might have the same understanding that has not changed over time because of it usage and meaning as in presbyters meaning priests or bishops deacons etc… Using the Bible only or sola scriptura to determine meaning without other disciplines often causes confusion as to meanings and what Scripture is saying. Tradition is needed since the New Testament was not written early on and only some of what the Apostles preached orally was ever written down. So to use Scripture only as a basis for understanding without Tradition leaves much to be desired. Doctrine is caused by what is found in Scripture, not Scripture found in doctrine in that doctrine is developed from Scripture not Scripture developed from doctrine. Doctrine is the Churches understanding of what one is to believe and adhere to.
 
Because individuals can teach falsely. The Church cannot.
That’s not what I see in the warnings; get enough individuals supposedly leading the church and group them together. You add those together with my questions and you do not see Jesus promising the organizational churches can’t err.
Paul says, “But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God’s curse!” (Galatians 1:8) This is a stern warning not to deviate from the (oral) Tradition that he has handed on to the Galatians, and while he is speaking theoretically here, the Holy Spirit did not actually allow him to teach false doctrine.
tsk tsk; he is not speaking theoretically. How many other religions have formed because they claim angels gave them a different teaching? Several, and there’s a huge one and it is growing every day, starts with an I and ends in slam. Paul is warning the people; it doesn’t matter if an apostle himself teaches a different teaching; let them (including himself) be damned. It’s quite clear.
Peter withdrew from eating with the Gentiles due to pressure from the circumcision group under the direction of James.
Again, showing Peter afraid of James makes it a little clearer that Peter was not the head of the church, or why would fear of someone else get Peter to deny a teaching of the gospel; there is no Jew or Gentile in the Lord.
So much for the “brother” of the Lord, the great leader of the Jerusalem church.
I agree; again a good example of how the very head of the organizational church in Jerusalem was pushing something bordering on false teaching by pressuring Gentile Christians to behave like Jews.
But Peter did not formally teach others to do the same.
Modeling is one of the most powerful teachers known to man.
The Catholic Church does not define infallibility as “teaching by example”.
I know. That’s a huge issue I have with it. If you are going to call someone “Vicar of Christ” you are indeed making claims about that person esp. in action. Even Paul said to model his own behavior and he wasn’t even the “Vicar of Christ” according to the RCC.
Jesus told his followers that they MUST obey the Pharisees because they sat in Moses’ seat. He warned them not to practice what they DID. So, their teaching, not their actions, was authoritative. Same with Peter.
The Pharisees claimed a lot, but not to be the Vicar of God on earth, as they would see that as blasphemy.
You’ve answered your own question; individuals - even large groups of them, may fall into error. The Church as a whole may not.
The Church IS the individuals as a collective; “out-called ones.”
A bit of rhetorical hyperbole perhaps?
It certainly doesn’t read that way.
For He also said, “the gates of hell will not prevail against it” meaning that the Church would not be overcome.
See my thread on this topic, it is not the standard view of what that verse means. You make it out to mean the Church cannot err, ever.
 
Again, showing Peter afraid of James makes it a little clearer that Peter was not the head of the church, or why would fear of someone else get Peter to deny a teaching of the gospel; there is no Jew or Gentile in the Lord.
Kliska, you just don’t get it. :nope:

On Peter, Paul and Hypocrisy

In their effort to deny the primacy of Peter and the doctrine of papal infallibility, many non-Catholics point to Paul’s rebuke of Peter over the issue of eating with Gentiles as recorded in the Paul’s Letter to the Galatians.

Galatians 2:11-14
11When Peter came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he was clearly in the wrong. 12Before certain men came from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles. But when they arrived, he began to draw back and separate himself from the Gentiles because he was afraid of those who belonged to the circumcision group. 13The other Jews joined him in his hypocrisy, so that by their hypocrisy even Barnabas was led astray. 14When I saw that they were not acting in line with the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter in front of them all, "You are a Jew, yet you live like a Gentile and not like a Jew. How is it, then, that you force Gentiles to follow Jewish customs?

In this passage, we see that Paul opposed Peter for not practicing what he preached. Although Peter may have been wrong to draw back from eating with the Gentile believers, we must note that is apparently James, and not Peter, who was the leader of the “circumcision group” in Jerusalem. Thus, those who assert that it was James, and not Peter, who was the real leader of the Church must answer for this error. However, Peter’s actions do not constitute formal teaching, and the doctrine of infallibility does not apply to Peter’s private opinions or behavior. Therefore, this passage does nothing to disprove either Peter’s primacy or the doctrine of papal infallibility. Peter, like his successors, was not above reproach nor impeccable.

However, it must also be noted that Paul was not above taking prudent measures out of fear of those who held to the tradition of circumcision, either. One such measure is found in the following passage:

Acts 16:1-3
1He came to Derbe and then to Lystra, where a disciple named Timothy lived, whose mother was a Jewess and a believer, but whose father was a Greek. 2The brothers at Lystra and Iconium spoke well of him. 3Paul wanted to take him along on the journey, so he circumcised him because of the Jews who lived in that area, for they all knew that his father was a Greek.

Paul wrote that “circumcision means nothing” (1 Corinthians 7:19, Galatians 6:15). Moreover, in the same letter in which Paul accused Peter of hypocrisy and boasted of having opposed Peter to his face, he writes the following:

Galatians 5:2-3
2Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all. 3Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law.

Imagine how Timothy must have felt when he first heard these words. He had let himself be circumcised by the very man who condemned the practice. Was Christ of no value to Timothy at all as a result of being circumcised?

This was not the only time that Paul had acted out of fear of the Jews. Later in the book of Acts, we find the following:

Acts 21:17-26
17When we arrived at Jerusalem, the brothers received us warmly. 18The next day Paul and the rest of us went to see James, and all the elders were present. 19Paul greeted them and reported in detail what God had done among the Gentiles through his ministry. 20When they heard this, they praised God. Then they said to Paul: “You see, brother, how many thousands of Jews have believed, and all of them are zealous for the law. 21They have been informed that you teach all the Jews who live among the Gentiles to turn away from Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children or live according to our customs. 22What shall we do? They will certainly hear that you have come, 23so do what we tell you. There are four men with us who have made a vow. 24Take these men, join in their purification rites and pay their expenses, so that they can have their heads shaved. Then everybody will know there is no truth in these reports about you, but that you yourself are living in obedience to the law. 25As for the Gentile believers, we have written to them our decision that they should abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality.” 26The next day Paul took the men and purified himself along with them. Then he went to the temple to give notice of the date when the days of purification would end and the offering would be made for each of them.

Clearly, the brothers in Jerusalem were concerned that some harm might come to Paul from those who knew that Paul taught against circumcision. Paul agreed to purify himself according to Jewish customs and to pay the expenses of those who were purified along with him rather than openly admit that circumcision was of no value. Was this a wise course of action? Assuredly as subsequent events indicate.

However, it cannot be denied that Paul was preaching one thing (at least in private to Gentile Christians) while practicing another—the very thing he accused Peter of doing.

In his subsequent letters (1Cor 8: 9-13, Romans 14:13), Paul backtracks and admits that one might avoid controversial behavior for the sake of the “weaker brethren.” Thus, he vindicates Peter’s actions in retrospect.

In short, Peter and Paul both had valid points. Paul was right in principle whereas Peter was right pastorally.
 
Noted. Twice.

Gee, if we keep this up, we can get our discussions down to a serious of post numbers alone:

R: 216.

J: Yes, but 247.

R: Already answered…198 and 199…(sorry that was so long, but it needed to be said).

J: But you completely undervalued 186…

R: Oh, please, not 186 again…haven’t we beaten that to death?

J: 186, 186, 186!
I would, of course, refer you back to 1,022. :rotfl:

Jon
 
I wouldn’t necessarily describe scripture as “coming from” Tradition,
Necessarily…what do you mean by that? How else do you believe that The Church determined what was scripture if not from Tradition?
but that said, I personally, would much prefer to see Tradition with no contradictions, and in perfect harmony with scripture, so we could return to that model.
Tradition with no contradictions to scripture or that something is not explicitly mentioned in scripture? If the Orthodox and Catholics agreed to the same number of books, does that result in perfect Harmony?

PnP
 
=Porknpie;11589017]Necessarily…what do you mean by that? How else do you believe that The Church determined what was scripture if not from Tradition?
Pork, there’s certainly an involvement of Tradition, of the Church, in its evaluation of the various books, particularly in the early Church.
Tradition with no contradictions to scripture or that something is not explicitly mentioned in scripture? If the Orthodox and Catholics agreed to the same number of books, does that result in perfect Harmony?
What I was alluding to is that, yes, there are contradictions, and I think the differences between east and west regarding some of the books used and viewed as canon in the East isn’t particularly significant compared to other issues.

Jon
 
See but the CC doesn’t only claim to be right on everything ,but as Tim Staples states, I dare you find any flaws with the Church teachings, not see what person x, or person y is doing, no with the Church teaching and the Church will always be right. From Morality, the Sacraments, the supremacy of the Pope, Apostolic Succession, the Virgin Mary, the Church will always get it right because Jesus with his blood, started the Church and he will not let it fail.
Do you suppose that the current Catholic Church teachings are consistent with the Apostolic Creed? The latter was supposed to have been documented in the New Testament. The later creeds, Niceaen, Athanasian were established after the completion of the Bible. Thus Sola Scriptura would not recognize anything agreed upon in later creeds.

Would Jesus and St. Paul approve of the current teachings of the Catholic Church?
 
Do you suppose that the current Catholic Church teachings are consistent with the Apostolic Creed? The latter was supposed to have been documented in the New Testament. The later creeds, Niceaen, Athanasian were established after the completion of the Bible. Thus Sola Scriptura would not recognize anything agreed upon in later creeds.
Could you please explain the bolded? Why would sola scripturists not recognize the creeds simply because of the time of their development vis-à-vis the Bible, or more precisely, the NT part of the Bible? Lutherans are sola scripturist, in fact we are “accused” of being the first ones because of Martin Luther, and we confess both the Athanasian and Nicene Creeds. From our confessions:
  1. And because directly after the times of the apostles, and even while they were still living, false teachers and heretics arose, and symbols, i. e., brief, succinct [categorical] confessions, were composed against them in the early Church, which were regarded as the unanimous, universal Christian faith and confession of the orthodox and true Church, namely, the Apostles’ Creed, the Nicene Creed, and the Athanasian Creed, we pledge ourselves to them, and hereby reject all heresies and dogmas which, contrary to them, have been introduced into the Church of God.
Jon
 
Thus Sola Scriptura would not recognize anything agreed upon in later creeds.
Here is another innovative twist to SS that I haven’t heard before. :hmmm:

Again, without any authority or Protestant magisterium to define and speak for what SS means and what SS would “recognize”, anyone can come to all sorts of conclusions regarding SS.
 
Yet the RCC claims the very same as does Orthodoxy as well. Either every faith is wrong or they are all right to some degree.

Question for ya. I am not defending SS, but just interested. What foundation does Tradition have without Scripture? What I mean is in the US government we have the 3 branches of government that are there to balance one another. Well that is in a perfect world. lol I believe that Scripture cannot stand alone, yet Tradition needs Scripture to back it up. Tradition alone cannot stand.

The 3 legged stool.
 
I think you have an oxymoron answer, because you say that Tradition has to be backed up by Scripture?. In the first 300 years or so, the only thing that churches had to depend on for information, was in the traditions of the apostles. Only one or two out of 10 could read, and the only thing they depended on was what they heard. The Bible itself was not printed until 1510, and once it was printed, it was changed, added to or subtracted from by individuals that did not accept what it said. Who put the Bible together in the first place? Answer the Catholic Church. What did they use to put it together? Surely not Scripture!. The Traditions from the 12, is what made Christianity grow, not a book! The Bible is words from man, with the blessing of God Almighty!. That the Bible does give reference to God’s Laws, is great, but without the passing of unwritten scripture, i.e. the voice of the Holy Men who took the word of Jesus, put it into print, and gave us a somewhat guide, the Bible would be another book written by any man, and thrown out to the world. Not only that, what if you never heard of the Bible? What if you started a family on a desert island, and knew nothing of others? If you believed in a higher power, or even if you didn’t, your life would be directed by your morals or by your conscience. The bible is not a book of rules or laws, it is the Word sent by God to mankind, to let us know that our morals, our lifestyles, our beliefs are based on Holy principles. Look at Rome before Christianity, or look at any civilization before Christianity. They all fell.
 
The bible is not a book of rules or laws, it is the Word sent by God to mankind, to let us know that our morals, our lifestyles, our beliefs are based on Holy principles.
Indeed.

The Bible was never meant to be a full compendium of the Christian faith.

That is why we have a living, breathing entity called The Body of Christ, the Catholic Church, to provide the full compendium of how to live in the manner proclaimed by the kerygma.
 
The Bible was already in use by the early Christians. The disciples of the Disciples constantly quoted from what we now know as the New Testament, so they had already recognised certain works had more authority than others. The Catholic Church didn’t set the canon, they just recognised the canon that was already in use by the majority of Christians.

I am a Sola Scriptura person because that is following the example of Christ. Never once did Jesus ever appeal to the Jewish Traditions to make his case, but rather he only ever used Scripture when making his case.
 
The Bible was already in use by the early Christians. The disciples of the Disciples constantly quoted from what we now know as the New Testament, so they had already recognised certain works had more authority than others. The Catholic Church didn’t set the canon, they just recognised the canon that was already in use by the majority of Christians.

I am a Sola Scriptura person because that is following the example of Christ. Never once did Jesus ever appeal to the Jewish Traditions to make his case, but rather he only ever used Scripture when making his case.
Do you believe that the Shepherd of Hermas is the inspired Word of God? That was one of the texts read by the early Christians and thought to be theopneustos.
 
The later creeds, Niceaen, Athanasian were established after the completion of the Bible. Thus Sola Scriptura would not recognize anything agreed upon in later creeds.
Could you please explain the bolded? Why would sola scripturists not recognize the creeds simply because of the time of their development vis-à-vis the Bible, or more precisely, the NT part of the Bible? Lutherans are sola scripturist, in fact we are “accused” of being the first ones because of Martin Luther, and we confess both the Athanasian and Nicene Creeds.
Here is a statement that claims Luther did not follow scola scriptura:

bible.ca/sola-scriptura-creeds.htm
 
Do you believe that the Shepherd of Hermas is the inspired Word of God? That was one of the texts read by the early Christians and thought to be theopneustos.
Hi PR. Do you have a list or source for those who thought it was theopneustos?

The list on this site seems to indicate that there were not many who thought this about Shepherd. I’d appreciate a source that I could use to compare.
bible-researcher.com/canon5.html

Thanks,
Jon
 
I think you have an oxymoron answer, because you say that Tradition has to be backed up by Scripture?. In the first 300 years or so, the only thing that churches had to depend on for information, was in the traditions of the apostles. Only one or two out of 10 could read, and the only thing they depended on was what they heard. The Bible itself was not printed until 1510, and once it was printed, it was changed, added to or subtracted from by individuals that did not accept what it said. Who put the Bible together in the first place? Answer the Catholic Church. What did they use to put it together? Surely not Scripture!. The Traditions from the 12, is what made Christianity grow, not a book! The Bible is words from man, with the blessing of God Almighty!. That the Bible does give reference to God’s Laws, is great, but without the passing of unwritten scripture, i.e. the voice of the Holy Men who took the word of Jesus, put it into print, and gave us a somewhat guide, the Bible would be another book written by any man, and thrown out to the world. Not only that, what if you never heard of the Bible? What if you started a family on a desert island, and knew nothing of others? If you believed in a higher power, or even if you didn’t, your life would be directed by your morals or by your conscience. The bible is not a book of rules or laws, it is the Word sent by God to mankind, to let us know that our morals, our lifestyles, our beliefs are based on Holy principles. Look at Rome before Christianity, or look at any civilization before Christianity. They all fell.
Even the Chinese and Hindu?
 
Here is a statement that claims Luther did not follow scola scriptura:

bible.ca/sola-scriptura-creeds.htm
Gottcha. So the man who gets the credit/blame for sola scriptura didn’t really practice sola scriptura. I’m not going to pursue this, but since the website says, “Affirm: Sola Scriptura is a Bible doctrine and was practiced by the Apostolic Fathers”, and the Apostolic Fathers all used creeds, it seems the site is conflicted about it.

Jon
 
Hi PR. Do you have a list or source for those who thought it was theopneustos?

The list on this site seems to indicate that there were not many who thought this about Shepherd. I’d appreciate a source that I could use to compare.
bible-researcher.com/canon5.html

Thanks,
Jon
Here are some sources:

newadvent.org/cathen/07268b.htm
Apparently, St. Irenaeus was an advocate for its canonicity.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shepherd_of_Hermas

earlychristianwritings.com/shepherd.html
 
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