Sola Scriptura...

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PRmerger said:
😉

How would you respond to the CoC member who says to you, 'My definition of SS is the same as yours. We just say it a bit differently"?
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I think what I’m trying to say is that it’s hard to being conversation with a non-Lutheran that starts off with them saying “The Lutheran Definition of SS is [insert crazy definition here]. And it’s wrong!”
 
benjohnson said:
I think what I’m trying to say is that it’s hard to being conversation with a non-Lutheran that starts off with them saying “The Lutheran Definition of SS is [insert crazy definition here]. And it’s wrong!”
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Well said, Ben. For example, when we are asked to support a particular belief and are told “you can’t use anything but scripture”. It puts us in a position where we have to properly define SS, or we end up being asked to defend a premise we reject in the first place.

Jon
 
JonNC said:
Well said, Ben. For example, when we are asked to support a particular belief and are told “you can’t use anything but scripture”. It puts us in a position where we have to properly define SS, or we end up being asked to defend a premise we reject in the first place.

Jon
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You need never defend yourselves against most of us veteran Catholics here on the CAFs regarding SS.

When we attack SS with others who do have the paradigm of “you can’t use anything but Scripture”, you need to think that it applies to you.

(NB: Please note that I have said that we “attack SS”. NOT that we attack the people who espouse SS.)
 
PRmerger said:
You need never defend yourselves against most of us veteran Catholics here on the CAFs regarding SS.

When we attack SS with others who do have the paradigm of “you can’t use anything but Scripture”, you need to think that it applies to you.

(NB: Please note that I have said that we “attack SS”. NOT that we attack the people who espouse SS.)
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PR,
You’ve never attacked me on anything. And most if not all of the veteran Catholics here treat us Lutherans pretty darn well, if I may say so. I get your point, and appreciate it. 👍

Jon
 
When we’re talking about Biblical beliefs – the obvious source would Be God’s Word / Scripture , wouldn’t it? What other source Is there?
 
crochet_lady said:
When we’re talking about Biblical beliefs – the obvious source would Be God’s Word / Scripture , wouldn’t it? What other source Is there?
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Jesus and His Apostles.

That is the source, crochet lady.

We do not get our beliefs from a book, no matter how holy, but rather from the Word–Jesus.

And Jesus gave us 2 channels that revealed His Word: Sacred Scripture AND Sacred Tradition.
 
crochet_lady said:
Seems that some of us would rather trust another human being who we can actually See and Hear speaking to us – about what ‘he’ thinks God is saying to us – Rather than Really trust in The God who really Did give us His Word. People didn’t just sit down and write some books that sounded good – like a good Christian novel.
We ALL trust a human every Sunday morning when we go to worship. If you can’t trust our priest/minister, that is VERY sad indeed. However, your insinuation that ANYONE would rather put their trust in a man instead of God is kind of insulting.
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crochet_lady said:
When we’re talking about Biblical beliefs – the obvious source would Be God’s Word / Scripture , wouldn’t it? What other source Is there?
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Where’ve you been, crochet lady??? Still waiting for you to address my post 😦
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crochet_lady said:
When we’re talking about Biblical beliefs – the obvious source would Be God’s Word / Scripture , wouldn’t it? What other source Is there?
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The writers, and teachers of Scriptures. The defenders of Scriptures, the ones that have died throughout the centuries for what they contain.

The men chosen by God.
 
crochet_lady said:
Martin Luther did what he did Because he was led of the Holy Spirit TO do it. At that time in history – he saw things in The Church that were practiced / taught that were Not in actual Scripture. So he Spoke Up. The Church authorities Didn’t like being contradicted. So he was persecuted /burned at the stake / for his beliefs.
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Then you agree that he was right about infant baptism, baptismal regeneration, and the real presence?

😉

Jon
 
crochet_lady said:
Seems that some of us would rather trust another human being who we can actually See and Hear speaking to us – about what ‘he’ thinks God is saying to us – Rather than Really trust in The God who really Did give us His Word. People didn’t just sit down and write some books that sounded good – like a good Christian novel.

Martin Luther did what he did Because he was led of the Holy Spirit TO do it. At that time in history – he saw things in The Church that were practiced / taught that were Not in actual Scripture. So he Spoke Up. The Church authorities Didn’t like being contradicted. So he was persecuted /burned at the stake / for his beliefs.

So – how is it that we have so many different ‘interpretations’ of God’s Word? Because ‘we’ like to ‘cherry pick’ Scripture to suit Our preferences. If a person Wants to practice the homosexual life-style , he simply says that That particular part of Scripture is ‘out of date with Society’. If a person Wants to divorce – just because – he’s tired of his wife or falls in love with someone else – well – maybe just ignore That part of Scripture – After all God knows your heart / He sure Does. Or we don’t agree with Genesis creation facts. Because- after all – it doesn’t match up with evolutionary theory. Well – God Told Moses what to write. That’s what ‘inspiration’ IS. God Told people He chose to Write down what He told them to write. And That was passed down from generation to generation.

Sometimes people don’t like God’s Word because He tells us we’re Sinners. But He’s Also given a way to have our sins Forgiven. Through the birth, death, burial and bodily resurrection of His Son, Jesus Christ. It’s Christianity. Calvary plus Nothing.

And there Are lots of different churches – many denominations – God didn’t make us ‘puppets’. My step Dad was Lutheran and my mom started out as Presbyterian and changed to being Baptist. Mom has been living with my sister and husband. They are both Baptist but go to different Baptist churches, Why? Because one of those churches has praise and worship music and the other uses more of the ‘old-fashioned’ Gospel music. . One is stronger with Doctrine than the other. My Mother is 95 and prefers the church that uses the ‘old-fashioned’ Gospel music. Those songs contain Lots of doctrine – almost not Needing much more from the pastor. The other church using the praise and worship songs , the people don’t really like the old-fashioned Gospel songs – so the pastor does the praise and worship And teaches the doctrine. So - Both groups of people are getting Bible teaching in two different churches.

But to say that One Church has All the answers and No one is to contradict IT – is it possible that Too much emphasis is being placed on The Church ‘group’ / The Church’s interpretation of… which amounts to a human being somehow having ‘infallible interpretation’ of… When a ‘church group’ writes how many hundred’s of pages of what They interpret Scripture to say and the people are to accept That as ‘the truth’. Why not just go to Scripture itself and read It?
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There are so many intepretations because you have no intepretative authority in Protestantism because you believe in the unbiblical notion of Sola Scriptura.(Scripture Alone)

See:

calledtocommunion.com/2009/11/solo-scriptura-sola-scriptura-and-the-question-of-interpretive-authority/

As far as Martin Luther being led by the Holy Spirt, not so much. Jesus promised his visible Church that the Holy Spirit would guide it into all truth, led by those whom he appointed to leadership within the Church, starting with the first Pope, St. Peter. Jesus appointed a teaching(and governing) Magisterium to be the final arbiter of proper interpretation of Scripture. One’s interpretation cannot contradict Scripture, Sacred Tradition, or the Magisterium, all speaking on the authority of God. Martin Luther for the first time in the history of the Church for over 1,500 years, decided that private intepretation was superior to what was taught by Jesus and the Apostles and was believed throughout the history of the Church. Martin Luther caused division within the body of Christ and now there are over 20,000 demoninations, each of whom claims to be led by the Holy Spirit, but for every one of those churches who claim to led by the Holy Spirit, there are over 19,999 individual denominations who claim the same thing yet they disagree on many doctrines of the Christian faith, they each have contradictory biblical interpretations, therefore they choose to become their own church. But the Holy Spirit does not contradict himself and this is hardly the united Church that Jesus prayed for.

See:

calledtocommunion.com/2011/11/we-dont-need-no-magisterium-a-reply-to-christianity-todays-mark-galli/

Brian Cross summarizes: see next post
 
Brian Cross summarizes:
We need a magisterium in order to have an ecclesial faith, rather than a me-and-my-Bible [along with whoever happens to agree with my interpretation] faith, and because otherwise Christ would not have established a magisterium in His Church, and enjoined us to “submit” to them and “obey” them as persons who keep watch over our souls (Heb 13:17). Christ chose and authorized Apostles not to force the early Church to choose between following the Apostles and following the Holy Spirit, but so that they could follow the Spirit by following the Apostles. Similarly, Christ’s promise concerning His Spirit leading men into all truth is not a promise that the Spirit will guide private interpretation or private bosom-burning into all truth. It provides no ground for certainty “that I am being guided into all truth” for those persons separated from the magisterium and following their own interpretation of Scripture along with others who share that interpretation. Christ’s promise that the Spirit will guide “you” into all truth has been understood in the visible Church as a promise that the Spirit will lead the Church through the magisterium He established. That is precisely how we can have confidence to know that we are being led by the Holy Spirit, and not co-opting the Spirit to sanction our own private interpretation or subjective bosom-burning.
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