Sola Scriptura???

[jpy15026]

Sola Scriptura ??
Colossians 1:5-15
5 because of the hope reserved for you in heaven. Of this you have already heard through the word of truth, the gospel, 6 that has come to you. Just as in the whole world it is bearing fruit and growing, so also among you, from the day you heard it and came to know the grace of God in truth, 7 as you learned it from* Epaphras* our beloved fellow slave, who is a trustworthy minister of Christ on your behalf

Colossians 1:23
23 provided that you persevere in the faith, firmly grounded, stable, and not shifting from the hope of the gospel that you heard, which has been preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, am a minister.

Colossians 1:28-29
28 It is he whom we proclaim, admonishing everyone and teaching everyone with all wisdom, that we may present everyone perfect in Christ.

Colossians 2:7
7 rooted in him and built upon him and established in the faith as you were taught*,* abounding in thanksgiving.

Colossians 4:15-18
15 Give greetings to the brothers in Laodicea and to Nympha and to the church in her house. 16 And when this letter is read before you, have it read also in the church of the Laodiceans, and you yourselves read the one from Laodicea.

1 Thessalonians 1:8
8 For from you the word of the Lord has sounded forth not only in Macedonia and (in) Achaia, but in every place your faith in God has gone forth, so that we have no need to say anything.

1 Thessalonians 2:2-4
2 Rather, after we had suffered and been insolently treated, as you know, in Philippi, we drew courage through our God to speak to you the gospel of God with much struggle. 3 Our *exhortation *was not from delusion or impure motives, nor did it work through deception. 4 But as *we *were judged worthy by God to be entrusted with the gospel, that is how we speak, not as trying to please human beings, but rather God, who judges our hearts. 5 Nor, indeed, did we ever appear with flattering speech, as you know, or with a pretext for greed—God is witness— 6 nor did we seek praise from human beings, either from you or from others, 7 although we were able to impose our weight as apostles of Christ. Rather, we were gentle among you, as a nursing mother cares for her children. 8 With such affection for you, we were determined to share with you not only the gospel of God, but our very selves as well, so dearly beloved had you become to us. 9 You recall, brothers, our toil and drudgery. Working night and day in order not to burden any of you, we proclaimed to you the gospel of God. 10 You are witnesses, and so is God, how devoutly and justly and blamelessly we behaved toward you believers. 11 As you know, we treated each one of you as a father treats his children, 12 exhorting and encouraging you and insisting that you conduct yourselves as worthy of the God who calls you into his kingdom and glory. 13 And for this reason we too give thanks to God unceasingly, that, in receiving the word of God from hearing us, you received not a human word but, as it truly is, the word of God, which is now at work in you who believe

1 Thessalonians 2:14
14 For you, brothers, have become imitators of the churches of God that are in Judea in Christ Jesus.

1 Thessalonians 4:2
2 For you know what instructions we gave you through the Lord Jesus.

Cont…

 

[jpy15026]

1 Thessalonians 5:27
27 I adjure you by the Lord that this letter be read to all the brothers.

2 Thessalonians 3:4-8
4 We are confident of you in the Lord that what we instruct you , you are doing, and will continue to do. 6 We *instruct *you, brothers, in the name of (our) Lord Jesus Christ,to shun any brother who conducts himself in a disorderly way and not according to the tradition they received from us

1 Timothy 1:2-15
2 to Timothy, my true child in faith: grace, mercy, and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord. 3 I repeat the request I made of you when I was on my way to Macedonia, that you stay in Ephesus to instruct certain people not to teach false doctrines 5 The aim of this instruction is love from a pure heart, a good conscience, and a sincere faith. 6 Some people have deviated from these and turned to meaningless talk, 7 wanting to be teachers of the law, but without understanding either what they are saying or what they assert with such assurance.

1 Timothy 3:14-15
14 I am writing you about these matters, although I hope to visit you soon. 15 But if I should be delayed, you should know how to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth.

1 Timothy 4:6-15
6 If you will give these instructions to the brothers, you will be a good minister of Christ Jesus, nourished on the words of the faith and of the sound teaching you have followed. 11 Command and teach these things. 13 Until I arrive, attend to the reading, exhortation, and teaching. 14 Do not neglect the gift you have, which was conferred on you through the prophetic word with the imposition of hands of the presbyterate.

1 Timothy 4:16
16 Attend to yourself and to your teaching; persevere in both tasks, for by doing so you will save both yourself and those who listen to you.

1 Timothy 5:17
17 Presbyters who preside well deserve double honor, especially those who toil in preaching and teaching.

1 Timothy 6:3-7
3 Whoever teaches something different and does not agree with the sound words of our Lord Jesus Christ and the religious teaching 4 is conceited, understanding nothing, and has a morbid disposition for arguments and verbal disputes. From these come envy, rivalry, insults, evil suspicions, 5 and mutual friction among people with corrupted minds, who are deprived of the truth, supposing religion to be a means of gain.

1 Timothy 6:20-21
20 O Timothy, guard what has been entrusted to you. Avoid profane babbling and the absurdities of so-called knowledge. 21 By professing it, some people have deviated from the faith.

2 Timothy 1:5-15
5 as I recall your sincere faith that first lived in your grandmother Lois and in your mother Eunice and that I am confident lives also in you. 6 For this reason, I remind you to stir into flame the gift of God that you have through the imposition of my 11 for which I was appointed preacher and apostle and teacher… 13 Take as your norm the sound words that you heard from me, in the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus.

2 Timothy 2:2
2 And what you heard from me through many witnesses entrust to faithful people who will have the ability to teach others as well.

2 Timothy 2:14,15
14 Remind people of these things and charge them before God to stop disputing about words. This serves no useful purpose since it harms those who listen.15 Be eager to present yourself as acceptable to God, a workman who causes no disgrace, imparting the word of truth without deviation.

Cont…

 

[jpy15026]

2 Timothy 2:23-26
23 Avoid foolish and ignorant debates, for you know that they breed quarrels. 24 A slave of the Lord should not quarrel, but should be gentle with everyone, able to teach, tolerant, 25 correcting opponents with kindness. It may be that God will grant them repentance that leads to knowledge of the truth, 26 and that they may return to their senses out of the devil’s snare, where they are entrapped by him, for his will.

2 Timothy 3:8-17
8 Just as Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses, so they also oppose the truth—people of depraved mind, unqualified in the faith. 9 But they will not make further progress, for their foolishness will be plain to all, as it was with those two. 10 You have followed my teaching, way of life, purpose, faith, patience, love, endurance, 11 persecutions, and sufferings, such as happened to me in Antioch, Iconium, and Lystra, persecutions that I endured. Yet from all these things the Lord delivered me. 12 In fact, all who want to live religiously in Christ Jesus will be persecuted. 13 But wicked people and charlatans will go from bad to worse, deceivers and deceived. 14 But you, remain faithful to what you have learned and believed, because you know from whom you learned it

2 Timothy 4:1-5
1 I charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who will judge the living and the dead, and by his appearing and his kingly power: 2 proclaim the word; be persistent whether it is convenient or inconvenient; convince, reprimand, encourage through all patience and teaching. 3 For the time will come when people will not tolerate sound doctrine but, following their own desires and insatiable curiosity, will accumulate teachers 4 and will stop listening to the truth and will be diverted to myths. 5 But you, be self-possessed in all circumstances; put up with hardship; perform the work of an evangelist; fulfill your ministry.

 

[Blue_Serenity]

No one believes in sola scriptura the way Catholics entail it. Those verses you cited show that we use other sources outside of the Bible in matters of aiding our understanding of our faith in Christ.
Sola scriptura means that the Bible is the only infallible authority on faith. Any other sources are fallible and can’t be believed to be 100% true, since the Bible is the only book written under the direction of God for all of Christianity to have for “training in righteousness”. 2 Tim.3:16-17

 

[jemfinch]

No one believes in sola scriptura the way Catholics entail it.

Some people do, especially those who think that Scripture is “perspicuous.”

Sola scriptura means that the Bible is the only infallible authority on faith. Any other sources are fallible and can’t be believed to be 100% true, since the Bible is the only book written under the direction of God for all of Christianity to have for “training in righteousness”

Then Protestants seem to act logically inconsistent with their belief by holding that their own (or their church’s own) interpretation of the Bible is “less fallible” than other, competing interpretations.

An infallible Bible without an infallible interpreter is worse than useless: not only can it not be infallibly interpreted so as to apply to our lives, but its very infallibility is wrongfully appealed to in order to defend fallible interpretations of it, confusing many of the faithful into believing that their interpretation of the Bible is infallible, when it most definitely is not.

Jeremy

 

[Equus_Pallidus]

No one believes in sola scriptura the way Catholics entail it. Those verses you cited show that we use other sources outside of the Bible in matters of aiding our understanding of our faith in Christ.
Sola scriptura means that the Bible is the only infallible authority on faith. Any other sources are fallible and can’t be believed to be 100% true, since the Bible is the only book written under the direction of God for all of Christianity to have for “training in righteousness”. 2 Tim.3:16-17

Yes It may be for all Christianity, but in the hands of some it is dangerous. Only the Catholic Church should be the interpreter of the Divine Revlation that is the Bible.

Example, and this ought to scaare everyone.

In a Feb. 23, 2007 posting in www.alternet.org, Bruce Wilson wrote: “A few weeks ago, to little notice, Texas megachurch pastor John Hagee, founder of the new “Apocalypse Now!” national lobbying group Cufi [Christians United for Israel] met with presidential candidate and US Senator John McCain and, over breakfast, discussed Israel and ‘other matters.’

“Pastor Hagee declined to detail in the e-mail he sent out to members of the Cufi mailing list because “this newsflash goes to the ends of the earth and I don’t want to read it in the media tomorrow.’

“But at the July 19, 2006 Washington DC inaugural event for Cufi, after recorded greetings from George W. Bush, with four US Senators and the Israeli ambassador to the US in attendance, Pastor John Hagee stated:

“’The United States must join Israel in a pre-emptive military strike against Iran to fulfill God’s plan for both Israel and the West… a biblically prophesied end-time confrontation with Iran, which will lead to the Rapture, Tribulation and the Second Coming of Christ.”

 

[Reformed1]

An infallible Bible without an infallible interpreter is worse than useless: not only can it not be infallibly interpreted so as to apply to our lives, but its very infallibility is wrongfully appealed to in order to defend fallible interpretations of it, confusing many of the faithful into believing that their interpretation of the Bible is infallible, when it most definitely is not.

Jeremy

So, could one say “An infallible magesterium without an infallible interpreter is worse than useless:…”?

 

[Blue_Serenity]

Then Protestants seem to act logically inconsistent with their belief by holding that their own (or their church’s own) interpretation of the Bible is “less fallible” than other, competing interpretations.

Jeremy, with all due respect, it’s not a matter of right and wrong. It’s a matter of Truth versus fallacy.
Any church that is so prideful and unwilling to see possible error is not a church of God. They are turning religion into an evil thing.

 

[JMJ_coder]

Hello,

So, could one say “An infallible magesterium without an infallible interpreter is worse than useless:…”?

That makes no sense, as the Magesterium is the official and infallible interpreter of Sacred Scripture.

 

[VociMike]

So, could one say “An infallible magesterium without an infallible interpreter is worse than useless:…”?

The difference is that one can always submit a question to the magisterium for further clarification. One can never submit a question to the bible. The end result is that we have one set of authoritative Catholic teachings, and thousands of sets of “authoritative” Protestant teachings.

 

[jemfinch]

So, could one say “An infallible magesterium without an infallible interpreter is worse than useless:…”?

No, because the Magisterium can interpret itself. Contrary to claims otherwise, static words on paper (such as the Bible), as inspired as they may be, cannot self-interpret.

Jeremy

 

[Reformed1]

No, because the Magisterium can interpret itself.
Jeremy

I’m not sure how the magesterium interprets itself. What do you mean by this?

I don’t see how your position is much if any different than mine. You are a fallible human that is stuck interpreting whatever it is that the magesterium is stating.

 

[Reformed1]

The difference is that one can always submit a question to the magisterium for further clarification.

If you send the magesterium a letter, who is it that answers?

 

[onenow1]

Hi,
Christ Himself says I have not come for the rightious.
With that premise in mind let’s see. Anytime Jesus forgives sins He does it on a personal basis, and tells them to sin no more. This is what the Catholic Church does as the Priest acting in the place of Christ, { in Persona Christa}.

Romans. 11:22, remain in His kindness.
Phil. 2:11-22, work out your own salvation.
Heb. 10:26-27, if sin after receiving truth judgement remains.
and many more verses.

This brings us to His last words: John. 1: 47-48, and that in His name repentance for the forgiveness of sins would be preached to all nations, beginning with Jerusalem. You are witnesses to this.
John.20:23, If you forgive anyones sins they are forgiven if you retain they are retained. Take note this is after the resurection. All these verses only make sense if we continually need to repent. This falls in line with Catholic understanding of redemption, we are justified with Jesus’s baptism= Matt. 3:15, But Jesus replied leave it like this for the time being it is fitting in this way we should fufill what uprightness demands.John. 3: 22,after this Jesus and the apostles went out and baptize. Scripture alone No. Scripture interperted by the Catholic Church Yes!

Peace, OneNow1

 

[JMJ_coder]

Hello,

If you send the magesterium a letter, who is it that answers?

That would depend on who you are and what you write. As a layman, the first contact should be with your priest or bishop. Unless there is an appeal of some sort, the laity generally doesn’t speak directly with the upper hierarchy. This communication is generally between the bishops, those in the upper hierarchy and the bishops of the dioceses who represent their flock.

Now it also depends on the content. If there is a question on liturgy, then the communication is between either the Commitee on the Liturgy of the Bishops Conference or the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments. If there was a doctrinal question, then that would be addressed to Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith. If there was an ecumenical question, then the letter goes to the Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity. There could be many more examples, but I think you get the point.

 

[heisenburg]

Reformed…

With respect, your argument is flawed from both a logical point of view and also smacks heavily Relativism. For starters, The Magesterium DOES interpret the word with infallibility. But you want to take it to the next level… “But who’s interpreting what THEY wrote.” For you, there is no answer… anywhere… Not in Catholicism, not in protestantism… It’s more in line with Bill Clinton saying 'that depends on what your definition of IS Is… I could tell you that we have X to interpret the magesterium, you would say… whose to interpret x… this will keep going until you get to the individual… the same question to yourself… how do you know you have interpreted it properly… you dont… all you have it what is right for YOU…

And thus… Relativism… NOT Christianity

Sad to see Relativism now being used as an argument by protestants against Catholics…

I though protestants were anti-relativist as well

But to answer your question… The Magisterium are bishops, cardinals, etc… If there is confusion… you can question them to clearify…

Thus defeats your arguement because there is someone to ask…

Please dont say… "but how do you interpret their interpretations… thats childish and an illogical argument. It also nullifies EVERY learned field as the argument would also need to apply to every science, discipline and expertise…

So are you going to say that? That is the result of your argument…

In Christ

 

[jpy15026]

.
I posted this originally to show that St. Paul emphasizes verse after verse after verse ; what you heard, what you have learned, what you were taught, what has been preached to you, the Church, the Church, the Church, the Magisterium, the Magisterium, the Magisterium,the teaching office of the Church. It consists of the Pope and Bishops. Christ promised to protect the teaching of the Church : “He who hears you, hears me; he who rejects you rejects me, he who rejects me, rejects Him who sent me” (Luke 10. 16). The promise of Christ cannot fail ,when the Church presents some doctrine as definitive or final, it comes under this protection, it cannot be in error; in other words, it is infallible.The day to day teaching of the Church throughout the world, when the Bishops are in union with each other and with the Pope, and present something as definitive, this is infallible. (Vatican II, Lumen gentium # 25 “The task of authoritatively interpreting the word of God, whether written or handed on [Scripture or Tradition], has been entrusted exclusively to the living Magisterium of the Church, whose authority is exercised in the name of Jesus Christ.” (Dei Verbum # 10):

.

 

[VociMike]

If you send the magesterium a letter, who is it that answers?

Today, the papally-appointed and Church-recognized representative of the magisterium, one of the various Congregations. And yes, I know where you’re trying to go with this question.

 

[jemfinch]

I’m not sure how the magesterium interprets itself. What do you mean by this?

When, as a Protestant, I misinterpreted the Bible, there was no one and nothing that could correct my misinterpretation. I’d seen all the Scriptures, I’d weighed them and made my decision, and no power but God Himself could budge me (and I’m blessed that He did!).

If, as a Catholic I misinterpret the Magisterium of the Church (God forbid), there exists an authority which can correct my misinterpretation: that very same Magisterium of the Church. Whereas the Bible is closed to further additions, explanations, rephrasings, etc., the Magisterium can add to its previous statements, explain its previous statements with different examples, rephrase its statements so as to be easier to understand exactly what it means.

That’s what I mean when I say that the Magisterium is self-interpreting. When it is misinterpreted, it can issue additional clarifications to correct those misunderstandings. The Bible cannot.

Jeremy

 

[VociMike]

Please dont say… "but how do you interpret their interpretations… thats childish and an illogical argument. It also nullifies EVERY learned field as the argument would also need to apply to every science, discipline and expertise…

So are you going to say that? That is the result of your argument…

Exactly. The end result of such a line of argument is to deny that anything is communicable, or even knowable.