C
Contarini
Guest
Sigh. . . I know you didn’t. I was clarifying how my view of the sacraments differs from the standard RC one (the Eastern churches are closer to my position).
Edwin
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Edwin
T
Tomster
Guest
The topic is Sola Scriptura. Please answer my questions.I will tell you if you will assure me honestly that you do not think they are in the Bible. If you in fact believe them to be in the Bible, then you are being rude and disingenuous and you need to stop pestering me.
Edwin
C
Contarini
Guest
Why are your questions relevant?The topic is Sola Scriptura. Please answer my questions.
For one thing, I don’t need to show that every sacrament is in the Bible–only the two that are generally necessary for salvation. As a matter of fact, the other five at the very least have Biblical roots, albeit in some cases in a more general way than the central two (the Sacrament of Penance is a good example of this, but the same thing is true to some extent of confirmation and ordination, which developed from the fairly vague rituals of “laying on of hands” mentioned in the NT, and from Jesus’ commissioning of the Apostles in John 20–marriage has abundant Biblical support, of course, and anointing has a clear Biblical warrant as well in the Epistle of James).
Anyway, I see no need to go on answering these questions if you will not give a good-faith explanation of why you are asking them. You are simply being impertinent and annoying and are making no effort to have an honest, reasonable discussion.
Edwin
T
Tomster
Guest
So, are you saying that Jesus did not institute the other five sacraments?Why are your questions relevant?
For one thing, I don’t need to show that every sacrament is in the Bible–only the two that are generally necessary for salvation. As a matter of fact, the other five at the very least have Biblical roots, albeit in some cases in a more general way than the central two (the Sacrament of Penance is a good example of this, but the same thing is true to some extent of confirmation and ordination, which developed from the fairly vague rituals of “laying on of hands” mentioned in the NT, and from Jesus’ commissioning of the Apostles in John 20–marriage has abundant Biblical support, of course, and anointing has a clear Biblical warrant as well in the Epistle of James).
Anyway, I see no need to go on answering these questions if you will not give a good-faith explanation of why you are asking them. You are simply being impertinent and annoying and are making no effort to have an honest, reasonable discussion.
Edwin
C
Contarini
Guest
I will not answer any more questions until you tell me what you think.So, are you saying that Jesus did not institute the other five sacraments?
Edwin
T
Tomster
Guest
Didn’t Jesus tell his apostles whatever you hold bound shall be held bound and whatever you loose shall be loosed?So, are you saying that Jesus did not institute the other five sacraments?
C
Contarini
Guest
Which sacrament do you think this was administering? I said that I think ordination goes back to John 20, and certainly this passage is very similar. It does not explicitly say anything about penance, if that’s what you are getting at, but I have no problem with the idea that this is a general warrant for the power of the keys of which absolution is one instance.Didn’t Jesus tell his apostles whatever you hold bound shall be held bound and whatever you loose shall be loosed?
I do see the five sacraments in the NT in a general and undeveloped way, as I said. But clearly they are not prescribed in their exact later form. There is no mention of mandatory individual confession to a priest, for instance–simply the general principles that we should confess our sins (to each other as well as to God) and that the Church has the authority to bind and loose. Sacramental private confession is a legitimate but not necessary development of these principles–there are other ways the principles can be applied.
Edwin
J
jemfinch
Guest
I have no doubt that Contarini knows where the other sacraments are in the Bible. He’s shown himself to be quite knowledgeable about such things. Is this a test? Is he being graded?Where are the other five sacraments in the Bible?
Jeremy
T
Tomster
Guest
“There are other ways the principles can be applied.” Such as . . .? Please give the biblical text.Which sacrament do you think this was administering? I said that I think ordination goes back to John 20, and certainly this passage is very similar. It does not explicitly say anything about penance, if that’s what you are getting at, but I have no problem with the idea that this is a general warrant for the power of the keys of which absolution is one instance.
I do see the five sacraments in the NT in a general and undeveloped way, as I said. But clearly they are not prescribed in their exact later form. There is no mention of mandatory individual confession to a priest, for instance–simply the general principles that we should confess our sins (to each other as well as to God) and that the Church has the authority to bind and loose. Sacramental private confession is a legitimate but not necessary development of these principles–there are other ways the principles can be applied.
Edwin
O
obedient2truth
Guest
Cantarini,
It looks like you are you own pope. Sola Scriptura cannot be validated using Scripture. Hence, Scripture alone is unbiblical. The Bible calls the Church “the pillar and foundation of truth” (1 Timothy 3:15).
Jesus said his Church would be “the light of the world.” He then noted that “a city set on a hill cannot be hid” (Matthew 5:14). This means his Church is a visible organization. It must have characteristics that clearly identify it and that distinguish it from other churches. Jesus promised, “I will build my Church and the gates of hell will not prevail against it” (Matthew 16:18). This means that his Church will never be destroyed and will never fall away from him. His Church will survive until his return.
Among the Christian churches, only the Catholic Church has existed since the time of Jesus. Every other Christian church is an offshoot of the Catholic Church. The Eastern Orthodox churches broke away from unity with the pope in 1054. The Protestant churches were established during the Reformation, which began in 1517. (Most of today’s Protestant churches are actually offshoots of the original Protestant offshoots.)
Only the Catholic Church existed in the tenth century, in the fifth century, and in the first century, faithfully teaching the doctrines given by Christ to the apostles, omitting nothing. The line of popes can be traced back, in unbroken succession, to Peter himself. This is unequaled by any institution in history.
Even the oldest government is new compared to the papacy, and the churches that send out door-to-door missionaries are young compared to the Catholic Church. Many of these churches began as recently as the nineteenth or twentieth centuries. Some even began during your own lifetime. None of them can claim to be the Church Jesus established.
The Catholic Church has existed for nearly 2,000 years, despite constant opposition from the world. This is testimony to the Church’s divine origin. It must be more than a merely human organization, especially considering that its human members— even some of its leaders—have been unwise, corrupt, or prone to heresy.
Any merely human organization with such members would have collapsed early on. The Catholic Church is today the most vigorous church in the world (and the largest, with a billion members: one sixth of the human race), and that is testimony not to the cleverness of the Church’s leaders, but to the protection of the Holy Spirit.
It looks like you are you own pope. Sola Scriptura cannot be validated using Scripture. Hence, Scripture alone is unbiblical. The Bible calls the Church “the pillar and foundation of truth” (1 Timothy 3:15).
Jesus said his Church would be “the light of the world.” He then noted that “a city set on a hill cannot be hid” (Matthew 5:14). This means his Church is a visible organization. It must have characteristics that clearly identify it and that distinguish it from other churches. Jesus promised, “I will build my Church and the gates of hell will not prevail against it” (Matthew 16:18). This means that his Church will never be destroyed and will never fall away from him. His Church will survive until his return.
Among the Christian churches, only the Catholic Church has existed since the time of Jesus. Every other Christian church is an offshoot of the Catholic Church. The Eastern Orthodox churches broke away from unity with the pope in 1054. The Protestant churches were established during the Reformation, which began in 1517. (Most of today’s Protestant churches are actually offshoots of the original Protestant offshoots.)
Only the Catholic Church existed in the tenth century, in the fifth century, and in the first century, faithfully teaching the doctrines given by Christ to the apostles, omitting nothing. The line of popes can be traced back, in unbroken succession, to Peter himself. This is unequaled by any institution in history.
Even the oldest government is new compared to the papacy, and the churches that send out door-to-door missionaries are young compared to the Catholic Church. Many of these churches began as recently as the nineteenth or twentieth centuries. Some even began during your own lifetime. None of them can claim to be the Church Jesus established.
The Catholic Church has existed for nearly 2,000 years, despite constant opposition from the world. This is testimony to the Church’s divine origin. It must be more than a merely human organization, especially considering that its human members— even some of its leaders—have been unwise, corrupt, or prone to heresy.
Any merely human organization with such members would have collapsed early on. The Catholic Church is today the most vigorous church in the world (and the largest, with a billion members: one sixth of the human race), and that is testimony not to the cleverness of the Church’s leaders, but to the protection of the Holy Spirit.
O
obedient2truth
Guest
If we wish to locate the Church founded by Jesus, we need to locate the one that has the four chief marks or qualities of his Church. The Church we seek must be one, holy, catholic, and apostolic.
Man’s ingenuity cannot account for this. The Church has remained one, holy, catholic, and apostolic—not through man’s effort, but because God preserves the Church he established (Matthew 16:18, 28:20).
He guided the Israelites on their escape from Egypt by giving them a pillar of fire to light their way across the dark wilderness (Exodus 13:21). Today he guides us through his Catholic Church.
The Bible, sacred Tradition, and the writings of the earliest Christians testify that the Church teaches with Jesus’ authority. In this age of countless competing religions, each clamoring for attention, one voice rises above the din: the Catholic Church, which the Bible calls “the pillar and foundation of truth” (1 Timothy 3:15).
Jesus assured the apostles and their successors, the popes and the bishops, “He who listens to you listens to me, and he who rejects you rejects me” (Luke 10:16). Jesus promised to guide his Church into all truth (John 16:12–13). We can have confidence that his Church teaches only the truth.
Look at what happened to the first Christians. Without the “confirmation” of the Holy Spirit, Peter and the apostles would never have had the courage or strength to go out into the world and spread the Good News of Jesus Christ. It is the same for us today. Living in the world in which we do, we need this powerful gift from God. When we are baptized – as children or as adults – our parents, or we, make the decision to take up the “good fight.” Then, at Confirmation, it is as if we receive our armor (strength) for the battle – the battle against evil. And with the Eucharist, we receive the “food” for the journey. These are the three Sacraments of Initiation. We need all three in order to enter fully into the Christian life.
Man’s ingenuity cannot account for this. The Church has remained one, holy, catholic, and apostolic—not through man’s effort, but because God preserves the Church he established (Matthew 16:18, 28:20).
He guided the Israelites on their escape from Egypt by giving them a pillar of fire to light their way across the dark wilderness (Exodus 13:21). Today he guides us through his Catholic Church.
The Bible, sacred Tradition, and the writings of the earliest Christians testify that the Church teaches with Jesus’ authority. In this age of countless competing religions, each clamoring for attention, one voice rises above the din: the Catholic Church, which the Bible calls “the pillar and foundation of truth” (1 Timothy 3:15).
Jesus assured the apostles and their successors, the popes and the bishops, “He who listens to you listens to me, and he who rejects you rejects me” (Luke 10:16). Jesus promised to guide his Church into all truth (John 16:12–13). We can have confidence that his Church teaches only the truth.
Look at what happened to the first Christians. Without the “confirmation” of the Holy Spirit, Peter and the apostles would never have had the courage or strength to go out into the world and spread the Good News of Jesus Christ. It is the same for us today. Living in the world in which we do, we need this powerful gift from God. When we are baptized – as children or as adults – our parents, or we, make the decision to take up the “good fight.” Then, at Confirmation, it is as if we receive our armor (strength) for the battle – the battle against evil. And with the Eucharist, we receive the “food” for the journey. These are the three Sacraments of Initiation. We need all three in order to enter fully into the Christian life.
O
obedient2truth
Guest
**The Church Is One **
Romans 12:5, 1 Corinthians 10:17, 12:13, CCC 813–822
Jesus established only one Church, not a collection of differing churches (Lutheran, Baptist, Anglican, and so on).
Ephesians 5:23–32
The Bible says the Church is the bride of Christ. Jesus can have but one spouse, and his spouse is the Catholic Church.
Jude 3
His Church also teaches just one set of doctrines, which must be the same as those taught by the apostles.
Philippians 1:27, 2:2
This is the unity of belief to which Scripture calls us.
Although some Catholics dissent from officially-taught doctrines, the Church’s official teachers—the pope and the bishops united with him—have never changed any doctrine. Over the centuries, as doctrines are examined more fully, the Church comes to understand them more deeply, but it never understands them to mean the opposite of what they once meant.
**The Church Is Holy **
Ephesians 5:25–27, Revelation 19:7–8, CCC 823–829
By his grace Jesus makes the Church holy, just as he is holy.
John 6:70
This doesn’t mean that each member is always holy. Jesus said there would be both good and bad members in the Church.
Matthew 7:21–23
And not all the members would go to heaven.
The Church itself is holy because it is the source of holiness and is the guardian of the special means of grace Jesus established, the sacraments.
The Church Is Catholic
Matthew 28:19–20, Revelation 5:9–10, CCC 830–856
Jesus’ Church is called catholic (“universal” in Greek) because it is his gift to all people.
Matthew 28:19–20
He told his apostles to go throughout the world and make disciples of “all nations”.
Galatians 3:28
For 2,000 years the Catholic Church has carried out this mission, preaching the good news that Christ died for all men and that he wants all of us to be members of his universal family.
Matthew 28:19
Nowadays the Catholic Church is found in every country of the world and is still sending out missionaries to “make disciples of all nations”.
The Church Jesus established was known by its most common title, “the Catholic Church,” at least as early as the year 107, when Ignatius of Antioch used that title to describe the one Church Jesus founded. The title apparently was old in Ignatius’s time, which means it probably went all the way back to the time of the apostles.
The Church Is Apostolic
Ephesians 2:19–20, CCC 857–865
The Church Jesus founded is apostolic because he appointed the apostles to be the first leaders of the Church, and their successors were to be its future leaders.
2 Timothy 2:2
The apostles were the first bishops, and, since the first century, there has been an unbroken line of Catholic bishops faithfully handing on what the apostles taught the first Christians in Scripture and oral Tradition.
Early Christian writings prove the first Christians were thoroughly Catholic in belief and practice and looked to the successors of the apostles as their leaders. What these first Christians believed is still believed by the Catholic Church today. No other Church can make that claim.
Romans 12:5, 1 Corinthians 10:17, 12:13, CCC 813–822
Jesus established only one Church, not a collection of differing churches (Lutheran, Baptist, Anglican, and so on).
Ephesians 5:23–32
The Bible says the Church is the bride of Christ. Jesus can have but one spouse, and his spouse is the Catholic Church.
Jude 3
His Church also teaches just one set of doctrines, which must be the same as those taught by the apostles.
Philippians 1:27, 2:2
This is the unity of belief to which Scripture calls us.
Although some Catholics dissent from officially-taught doctrines, the Church’s official teachers—the pope and the bishops united with him—have never changed any doctrine. Over the centuries, as doctrines are examined more fully, the Church comes to understand them more deeply, but it never understands them to mean the opposite of what they once meant.
**The Church Is Holy **
Ephesians 5:25–27, Revelation 19:7–8, CCC 823–829
By his grace Jesus makes the Church holy, just as he is holy.
John 6:70
This doesn’t mean that each member is always holy. Jesus said there would be both good and bad members in the Church.
Matthew 7:21–23
And not all the members would go to heaven.
The Church itself is holy because it is the source of holiness and is the guardian of the special means of grace Jesus established, the sacraments.
The Church Is Catholic
Matthew 28:19–20, Revelation 5:9–10, CCC 830–856
Jesus’ Church is called catholic (“universal” in Greek) because it is his gift to all people.
Matthew 28:19–20
He told his apostles to go throughout the world and make disciples of “all nations”.
Galatians 3:28
For 2,000 years the Catholic Church has carried out this mission, preaching the good news that Christ died for all men and that he wants all of us to be members of his universal family.
Matthew 28:19
Nowadays the Catholic Church is found in every country of the world and is still sending out missionaries to “make disciples of all nations”.
The Church Jesus established was known by its most common title, “the Catholic Church,” at least as early as the year 107, when Ignatius of Antioch used that title to describe the one Church Jesus founded. The title apparently was old in Ignatius’s time, which means it probably went all the way back to the time of the apostles.
The Church Is Apostolic
Ephesians 2:19–20, CCC 857–865
The Church Jesus founded is apostolic because he appointed the apostles to be the first leaders of the Church, and their successors were to be its future leaders.
2 Timothy 2:2
The apostles were the first bishops, and, since the first century, there has been an unbroken line of Catholic bishops faithfully handing on what the apostles taught the first Christians in Scripture and oral Tradition.
Early Christian writings prove the first Christians were thoroughly Catholic in belief and practice and looked to the successors of the apostles as their leaders. What these first Christians believed is still believed by the Catholic Church today. No other Church can make that claim.
T
Tomster
Guest
Jeremy,I have no doubt that Contarini knows where the other sacraments are in the Bible. He’s shown himself to be quite knowledgeable about such things. Is this a test? Is he being graded?
Jeremy
Please understand, Contarini, by his own words, has defected from his own Anglican/Episcopal traditions.
J
jemfinch
Guest
Just out of curiosity, do you believe that only priests have the genuine ability to forgive sins, and if so, does the Church have the authority to bind it upon Christians to confess their grave sins to a priest with that power?There is no mention of mandatory individual confession to a priest, for instance–simply the general principles that we should confess our sins (to each other as well as to God) and that the Church has the authority to bind and loose. Sacramental private confession is a legitimate but not necessary development of these principles–there are other ways the principles can be applied.
Jeremy
C
Contarini
Guest
Why do I need to give the Biblical text? I am not claiming that these other ways are necessary for salvation, so they do not need to be found clearly in Scripture.“There are other ways the principles can be applied.” Such as . . .? Please give the biblical text.
Edwin
J
jemfinch
Guest
Contarini, as I understand it, would like to see the Anglican/Episcopalian churches reunited with the Catholic Church, and is remaining in them to have whatever influence he can in that regard. I’m not in agreement as to whether that’s the best way for him to strive for unity, but I at least have respect for what I understand to be his intentions.Jeremy,
Please understand, Contarini, by his own words, has defected from his own Anglican/Episcopal traditions.
Jeremy
C
Contarini
Guest
No. Only Christ has the ability to forgive sins, and the Church is the body of Christ. Priests are those persons who act on behalf of the Church, and so when they speak we hear the voice of the Church (and therefore of Christ) most clearly. I as a layperson would never pronounce absolution in a first-person form, but I might (though I have never had occasion to do so) hear someone’s confession in a case of necessity and use a formula such as "may God forgive you. . . . "Just out of curiosity, do you believe that only priests have the genuine ability to forgive sins,
All the commands of the Church (as of any other lawful authority) which are not sinful should be obeyed. There is clearly nothing sinful about confessing one’s sins to a priest–on the contrary, it is a very good thing to do!and if so, does the Church have the authority to bind it upon Christians to confess their grave sins to a priest with that power?
As an Anglican, I am not required to do this, and I rejoice in that freedom. But I do confess my sins to a priest–I did so last Saturday after a hiatus of three years (largely caused by the fact that it was harder to find an Anglo-Catholic priest in New Jersey).
And of course, Catholics do not believe that a person who has not confessed to a priest cannot be forgiven if he confesses to God. However, you would see this as possible under far more restrictive circumstances than I would. I do not think that the Church can bind our consciences in this respect in the sense of making private confession to a priest (normatively) necessary for salvation, although I think that disobeying the Church and refusing to humble oneself to a human representative of Christ is bad for your soul, so I don’t recommend it. . . .
Edwin
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