Sola Scriptura . . .

[NotWorthy]

Not sure what the context is here. More info please

Our good friend Kujo is saying that since Scripture is mentioned so many times it has prominence.

Turn this arguement around and point out that Peter (or Simon) is the Apostle mentioned most often in the Bible and he’ll deny that it has any relevance to authority.

Sola Scriptura is a neat system, isn’t it? As a matter of fact, I think we have got it wrong the whole time.

Sola Scriptura means that I can use the Bible to prove that I’m right and you’re wrong, but you can’t use the Bible to prove that you’re right and I’m wrong.

 

[guanophore]

I don’t know where you are copying this article from, kujo, but it is teaching error.

What does the Bible say about Mary?

When asked to defend their position from Scripture, “Mary” - worshipping Catholics always point to passages like Luke 1:28, 42 & 48. “Rejoice, highly favored one, the Lord is with you; blessed are you among women…”. There is no question about it, Mary the mother of Jesus is blessed among women. No Christian would deny that.

Do you pray scripture? By that, I mean, do you take the words of scripture into your mouth during prayer? Most Christains do, Catholic or not. Have you ever taken this scripture into yourself during prayer? Why not?

But just what is really meant by her being “blessed”? It is necessary to know and consider the totality of what the Bible says about Mary to get a truly Scriptural understanding of this. Mary the mother of Jesus is blessed, yes, but there is another side to what the Bible says about her, which is contrary to what “Mary” worshippers make of her.

The only people I have ever met that worship Mary are Pagans. There are curandera’s here in the Southwest that worship Our Lady of Guadalupe because they think she is an incarnation of the Great Goddess. You are right, this is not biblical.

Catholic readers might protest the use of the word “worshippers” with the old line that Catholics don’t “worship” “Mary”; they “venerate” her. Frankly, this is what is known as double talk. The words “worship” and “venerate” can be considered synonymous. .

The author of this article clearly does not understand the difference between veneration and worship, and is ignnorant about Hebraic history. Read I Kings 2:19, and tell me if Solomon is worshipping his mother.

Mary was chosen to be the mother of the man who would become the Savior of the world. This is a great blessing. It guaranteed her the position of being the most honored woman in the history of mankind. But she, in her famous psalm of praise, known as the “Magnificat”, referred to God as “my Savior”.

Here are the seeds of another error. Mary’s son is not a mere “man” but God Himself. And no one ever denied that Mary needed a saviour, she just received Jesus as savior and Lord before he came into her womb.

If she is, as the Catholics call her, the Mother of God, how then can God be her Saviour? The two ideas are contradictory. Also, the Bible never calls her the Mother of God. She is called the mother of Jesus, the Son of God.

The author of this article may not recogize Jesus as God, it is hard to tell. The title of Mother of God was given to her in response to the heresy that Jesus is not God. Is this your belief? It is a mystery to us how God can become man,a nd be borne of woman, but this is a truth that as Christians, we believe.

Phil 2:5-11
Christ Jesus, 6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in human form he humbled himself and became obedient unto death, even death on a cross. 9 Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name which is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. "

He is God, and she is His mother, and she is the Mother of God the Son.

(continued)

 

[guanophore]

Another piece of Catholic dogma about “Mary” is the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception, the idea that Mary was somehow miraculously born without the curse of original sin. In other words, she too supposedly lived a sinless life. All that this writer can say about this is that he has challenged a number of Catholics to show him Scriptural support for this. None has been shown. None exists. The idea is a fantasy.

This is an idea, like the Trinity, that is not found explicity in scripture, but that is implied by the teachings. You can argue about it when you can find the word Trinity in your bible. Unless of course, you don’t really believe in the Trinity. That would be the case if you do not believe Jesus is God.

In Luke 11:27 & 28, Jesus made a statement that effectively dethrones “Mary”. As He was teaching, a woman in the crowd spoke up and made this comment: “Blessed is the womb that bore you, and the breasts that you sucked”.

Mary is blessed because she bore the Son, as you have already admitted was said by the angel when Gabriel greeted her. Since scripture does not contradict itself, Mary is Blessed among women because of her womb and breasts that nourished our Lord. What Jesus was saying that she was MORE blessed because she was obedient to the Word of God. She hears His words, and does them.

Now understand this: There is a pattern in the Gospels of Jesus complimenting anyone who did or said anything commendable in regard to Him. The most famous example of this is His statement to Peter in Matthew 16:17. Jesus had asked the provocative question, “But who do you say that I am?”

Peter responded with the famous proclamation: “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God”.

And Jesus replied with the beautiful compliment, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven”.

Of course there are numerous other examples of this in the Gospels. The idea is, Jesus believed in giving affirmation where affirmation was merited; credit where credit was due. If Mary is what the Catholic Church makes of her, than what this woman said was an enlightened statement equal to Peter’s. She should have also received a compliment from Jesus. She didn’t.

John 21:25

'‘But there are also many other things which Jesus did; were every one of them to be written, I suppose that the world itself could not contain the books that would be written.’

We are not told about the 30 years before Jesus’ public ministry either, but that does not mean they were not important, or didn’t happen.

In fact, what Jesus said to her is a mild rebuttal: “More than that, blessed are those who hear the word of God and keep it!” Jesus said, in other words, that spiritually, as Christians go, there is nothing special about Mary. **Any Christian who really lives a life of obedient faith is at least just as blessed as she! **

YES! Mary is the model of what we can all become, by receiving Christ into our innermost parts, following Him, and standing with Him at the foot of His cross. Mary eternally says to all of us “do whatever He tells you”.

(continued)

 

[guanophore]

In Matthew 12:46-50, while Jesus was teaching in a synagogue, the Bible says that “His mother and brothers stood outside, seeking to speak with Him”. Note that this, plus other Scripture references, tells us that Mary had more children after Jesus was born. Contrary to what the Catholic Church teaches, she did not stay perpetually a virgin. This is taking the Bible to mean exactly what it says. Jesus was told about His family being there, and if the Catholic dogma mentioned above was true, Jesus would have gone out to them. He didn’t. Instead He asked this rhetorical question:

“Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?”

Then He pointed to His disciples and answered His own question:

“Here are My mother and My brothers! For whoever does the will of My Father in Heaven is My brother and sister and mother.”

I see that the author of your article has not researched who these people are. I also see that another poster has already provided a link for you. If you really want to know the truth about this, it is there for you.

In saying this, Jesus clearly told us that in the Heavenly order of things, again, there is nothing special about Mary. Her “blessedness” begins and ends with her being the mother of the man, Jesus of Nazareth. Period.

Again these are the seeds of heresy. Jesus of Nazateth was not just a “man”. He is God incarnate.

John 1:1-5
1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God; 3 all things were made through him, and without him was not anything made that was made. 4 In him was life, and the life was the light of men. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it."

If you reject this, then you must also reject Mary, the Mother of God. Your rejection does not change the truth of what is, but you have provided a very good example on this thread of why Sola Scriptura is also an error. When one follows the teachings if the Church, one can see clearly that the understanding of Mary’s role in salvation history became more clear as the heresies emerged and had to be refuted

 

[kujo313]

I have always understood that to mean that the pope has the responsibility to teach sound doctrine.

But lest we misunderstand each other, here is the passage:

John 21:15-18
15When they had finished eating, Jesus said to Simon Peter, “Simon son of John, do you truly love me more than these?”
“Yes, Lord,” he said, “you know that I love you.”
Jesus said, “Feed my lambs.”

16Again Jesus said, “Simon son of John, do you truly love me?”
He answered, “Yes, Lord, you know that I love you.”
Jesus said, “Take care of my sheep.”
17The third time he said to him, “Simon son of John, do you love me?”
Peter was hurt because Jesus asked him the third time, “Do you love me?” He said, “Lord, you know all things; you know that I love you.” 18Jesus said, "Feed my sheep.

What do you, elation, understand to be the three instructions and duties?

So I guess that a private Bible study is useless if no Catholic priest is present? Did the pope personally say it was ok for you to interrupret?

 

[guanophore]

So I guess that a private Bible study is useless if no Catholic priest is present? Did the pope personally say it was ok for you to interrupret?

This is a ridiculuous thing to say. In any case, Jesus instructions to Peter about feeding and caring for the sheep were not related just to teaching scripture. A shepherd has many duties, and the New Testament had not yet been written.

 

[toaslan]

I see that the author of your article has not researched who these people are. I also see that another poster has already provided a link for you. If you really want to know the truth about this, it is there for you.

Sorry, but does that previous post go into how brothers can mean step-brothers or cousins or just kinsmen–is that what it is? And how from the cross Jesus gave his mother to St. John to be his (and our) mother (implying Mary lacked other sons to care for her)? could you identify better the link, because there are so many links provided in these 14 pages… thanks!

 

[NotWorthy]

So I guess that a private Bible study is useless if no Catholic priest is present? Did the pope personally say it was ok for you to interrupret?

Kujo, your claims to remembering the Catholic Faith seem to be faltering if you believe this statement.

 

[guanophore]

Sorry, but does that previous post go into how brothers can mean step-brothers or cousins or just kinsmen–is that what it is? And how from the cross Jesus gave his mother to St. John to be his (and our) mother (implying Mary lacked other sons to care for her)? could you identify better the link, because there are so many links provided in these 14 pages… thanks!

catholic.com/library/brethren_of_the_lord.asp

 

[toaslan]

In Catholic theology breaking one of the Ten Commandments, like bearing false witness against your neighbour, is a Mortal Sin.

I guess you got a little carried away–intentionally breaking one of the Ten Commandments is always a sin, but for a sin to be so bad as to be mortal, that is to kill God’s life in my soul, requires 1) full knowledge of what I am doing, 2) full consent of my will to the action, 3)serious matter.

Yes, to repeat the slander that Catholics worship Mary, after one has been corrected every which way, after one has been alerted to all the distinctions by those who know, would be to lie about Catholics, unless in the slanderer’s heart of hearts there is truly good will and some kind of invincible ignorance… so while we can’t judge the state of another’s soul, we can call a lie a lie.

 

[I_Leatherman]

I guess you got a little carried away–intentionally breaking one of the Ten Commandments is always a sin, but for a sin to be so bad as to be mortal, that is to kill God’s life in my soul, requires 1) full knowledge of what I am doing, 2) full consent of my will to the action, 3)serious matter.

Yes, to repeat the slander that Catholics worship Mary, after one has been corrected every which way, after one has been alerted to all the distinctions by those who know, would be to lie about Catholics, unless in the slanderer’s heart of hearts there is truly good will and some kind of invincible ignorance… so while we can’t judge the state of another’s soul, we can call a lie a lie.

I never get carried away whilst typing with two fingers. I said for a Catholic it would be mortal, i.e. in Catholic theology it is mortal. What it is or is not to others I cannot say and did not speculate on, but only to draw poor old Kujos attention to *his *Ten Commandments - he probably forgot about them…

 

[toaslan]

I said for a Catholic it would be mortal, i.e. in Catholic theology it is mortal.

OK, not getting you. What is mortal?

 

[HailMary]

OK, not getting you. What is mortal?

Breaking any of the 10 commandments with the full knowledge and full will

 

[toaslan]

Breaking any of the 10 commandments with the full knowledge and full will

Are you denying that the matter of the sin must be serious in addition to the above two conditions for a sin to be mortal?

 

[HailMary]

Are you denying that the matter of the sin must be serious in addition to the above two conditions for a sin to be mortal?

No, I am asserting that. Any of the 10 are serious matters.

 

[toaslan]

No, I am asserting that. Any of the 10 are serious matters.

I’m sorry, something is wrong here. I can tell a small lie about nothing much and it is a venial sin against the 8th Commandment. I can tell a deliberate pre-meditated lie knowing it will result, say, in the death of an innocent person. That would be serious matter, and that sin would be mortal. All intentional infractions of the 10 Commandments are sins–some mortal, some venial. You deny that some sins against the 10 Commandments can be venial?

If you do, then may I suggest a separate thread on this subject? We are getting way off Sola Scriptura…

 

[HailMary]

I’m sorry, something is wrong here. I can tell a small lie about nothing much and it is a venial sin against the 8th Commandment. I can tell a deliberate pre-meditated lie knowing it will result, say, in the death of an innocent person. That would be serious matter, and that sin would be mortal. All intentional infractions of the 10 Commandments are sins–some mortal, some venial. You deny that some sins against the 10 Commandments can be venial?

If you do, then may I suggest a separate thread on this subject? We are getting way off Sola Scriptura…

They can be venial but the matter would have to be small (like a small amount of money or a white lie). This is actually a very interesting topic and we should spin off a new thread.

 

[toaslan]

They can be venial but the matter would have to be small (like a small amount of money or a white lie). This is actually a very interesting topic and we should spin off a new thread.

Now I’m agreeing with your phrasing.

If you want to spin off, you want to pose the question and alert the thread when & where it’s posted? I’d check it out…

 

[Randy_Carson]

Catholic readers might protest the use of the word “worshippers” with the old line that Catholics don’t “worship” “Mary”; they “venerate” her. Frankly, this is what is known as double talk. The words “worship” and “venerate” can be considered synonymous. .

Perhaps our learned friend, Kujo, can explain the distinctions between *latria, dulai *and hyperdulia.

After all, someone as knowledeable about what Catholics really believe as he is should be able to clarify this for us.

Kujo? What say you?

 

[toaslan]

Well, MountainBoy, before speaking to the substance of your post, let me ask you why, instead of saying,

This verse has nothing to do with the fallible interpretation the Catholic magisterium has imposed upon it

you don’t say instead something like:

This verse has nothing to do with the interpretation the Catholic magisterium gives it

?

Point being, the second version also allows you to set out what you intend to prove, but without putting in gratuitous affronts. It’s better for us all to take out the spin and see what’s left. It serves clarity–the less fog the better when we have so many complex issues at hand.

Then, your spin seems to be, that the incorrect CC has forced/twisted the bible to her own ends. The “fallible” gloss is your opinion, and asserting it here is assuming what you set out to prove. First prove where she is wrong in a teaching which she proposes as infallible–then you can say she is fallible. To assume what you set out to prove is a mistake in logic.

The bit about the CC “imposing” the error-ridden interpretation – the forcing assumes bad will and all kinds of evil in the souls of Catholics down through the ages. I guess it assumes no Holy Spirit in our church and in us millions and billions. You should be sensitive that this assumption underlies the pejoratives used, and it obscures the merit which may lie in your actual points.

Well-taught Catholics are wary of the pitfall of judging another’s soul, lest we be judged (though we can and should judge actions as being good or evil actions). With all due respect, I’m suggesting for you a sensitivity adjustment, so what seems a bit of a “tin ear” can tune-up and hear how some of the spin comes off to Catholic “ears”/eyes. The spin where you let loose about love for God’s word and God Himself, however, is nice.

Next I get to respond to the interesting substance you raised.