Sola Scriptura . . .

[Church_Militant]

Yeah nothing proves this theory like a single walk through the yellow pages under “Churches”.

Clear as mud!!!

Dog-piling? You call this dog-piling?

BTW, again, Welcome to the forums MountainBoy!!!

 

[Church_Militant]

[SIGN]Dude gives up too easily.[/SIGN]

 

[MountainBoy11]

Sola Scriptura teaches that the totality of Divine Revelation is contained in Scripture Alone.

Therefore Sola Scriptura is false and must be rejected.

End of story.

Ken

Perhaps one of my informed Catholic opponents could help me by helping your colleague straighten out his understanding of the Protestant position here, or point him to centuries of printed material to help him understand the arrogance of thinking he has just “ended the story.”

If you need help on the Protestant position, see my recent post at “Explanation of Sola Scriptura.”

 

[NotWorthy]

[sign]Dude gives up too easily.[/sign]

I don’t think so!

 

[MountainBoy11]

Might as well import that.

Sola Scriptura! The Protestant Position on the Bible
Don Kistler, General Editor
Soli Deo Gloria Publications

Chapter 1 “What do we mean by Sola Scriptura?”

“The Protestant position, and my position, is that all things necessary for salvation and concerning faith and life are taught in the Bible clearly enough for the ordinary believer to find it there and understand.”

And an earlier quote I like:
“Roman Catholics believe we Protestants departed from the church in the sixteenth century. Protestant Catholics believed they departed earlier.”

 

[Church_Militant]

I don’t think so!

Nah… didn’t really believe it either…
didn’t seem like the type.

MB11,
Your pastor’s quote (or whatever) misstates things.

1. There isn’t even a consensus among n-Cs as to what SS consists of. His definition is one of many different ones.
2. There are no “protestant Catholics”.
3. Since the “reformation” occurred in the 16th century, that is generally considered the departure date for protestantism.

 

[MountainBoy11]

You came in and made statements and now you have to stand and deliver or admit that the Bible does not teach Sola Scriptura, at which point you must then reassess all that you believe that is based upon that one fundamental error.

That reminds me of a situation that occurred once. That reminds me of a response that was given once.

Prierias “HE who does not accept the doctrine of the church of Rome and pontiff of Rome as an infallible rule of faith, from which the Holy Scriptures, too, draw their strength and authority, is a heretic.”

Luther “Hier stehe ich, Ich kann nicht anders.” Here I stand! I can do no other…so help me God.

 

[NotWorthy]

Might as well import that.

What does the Bible teach on Embryonic Stem Cell Research?

What does the Bible teach on artificial contraception? Has your Church held this opinion on AC since the time of Christ?

 

[Church_Militant]

That reminds me of a situation that occurred once. That reminds me of a response that was given once.

Prierias “HE who does not accept the doctrine of the church of Rome and pontiff of Rome as an infallible rule of faith, from which the Holy Scriptures, too, draw their strength and authority, is a heretic.”

Luther “Hier stehe ich, Ich kann nicht anders.” Here I stand! I can do no other…so help me God.

Total irrelevance.

Do you actually have anything of substance to offer from the Bible, or is it all just rhetoric, because rhetoric will not prove your case. Especially with me around.

I’m off to raid the fridge…

 

[MountainBoy11]

Nah… didn’t really believe it either…
didn’t seem like the type.

MB11,
Your pastor’s quote (or whatever) misstates things.

1. There isn’t even a consensus among n-Cs as to what SS consists of. His definition is one of many different ones.
2. There are no “protestant Catholics”.
3. Since the “reformation” occurred in the 16th century, that is generally considered the departure date for protestantism.

1. This definition is what Christians committed to Sola Scriptura believe. It consists of 10 articles from different Bible believing pastors/theologians unified (you say we’re not united, we are) on the doctrine of Sola Scriptura.
2. We’re all Catholic to some extent. As you know C. means universal. Both groups claim to be part of the apostolic, universal church of Jesus Christ.
3. Ironically, my own typo may have mislead your interpretation of this quote. What we mean is, while you Roman Catholics are upset that we departed from the Catholic church in the 16th century, we Protestant Catholics are upset that you Roman Catholics departed from the Catholic church much earlier.

 

[MountainBoy11]

OK, let me put it more clearly. If the Bible was meant to teach us all truths, negating the need for a teaching authority, wouldn’t it have been written more clearly? Leviticus comes to mind. It’s pretty cut and dried. Do this… Don’t do this…

Interesting to see the motivation of a works-righteousness theology come out here. Catholics want a list of dos and don’ts. Laying aside the commandment of God (including NT), you hold the tradition of men. This is what motivated Saul for many years, and all Pharisees, but after conversion, Paul called his efforts dung. (Phil 3:5-6).

 

[MountainBoy11]

Total irrelevance.

Do you actually have anything of substance to offer from the Bible, or is it all just rhetoric, because rhetoric will not prove your case. Especially with me around.

I’m off to raid the fridge…

I can see how you might see that as irrelevance. What I’m really getting at is this:.

True believers have a deep, inward conviction about the authority and sufficiency of Scripture. Here’s how:

I want to know God. I want to know Christ. I want to know about myself. I want to know how I can get to God. I want to know what is going to happen in the future.

In Scripture I find God clearly revelaing Himself. He has chosen to reveal Himself there. Sure He reveals Himself in other ways as well, such as through creation (Ps 19), through man made in His image (Gen 1-3), through His Son (Heb 1:2), through believers, but primarily and most clearly through the Bible.

In Scripture I find the truth about the holiness of God, the sinfulness of man, the redemptive plan of Jesus Christ, the gospel of salvation by grace alone, and the secure truth about my future and the Second Coming of Jesus Christ.

I DO NOT FIND THESE TRUTHS IN THE CATHOLIC CHURCH. In that system, I find corrupt leadership, good people working their way to heaven, insecurity about salvation b/c I don’t know if my deeds are good enough, a fictitious place called purgatory, and so on. I do not want to follow after a man named Cardinal Mahoney, being that I live in So Cal.

Give me God. Give me Jesus Christ. Give me truth about my sinfulness. Give me the true gospel of justification by faith. And give me the truth about my future.

In short, give me the Scriptures, where I can find these truths. I don’t want the corrupt doctrines and practices of the Catholic Church…

 

[MrS]

True believers have a deep, inward conviction about the authority and sufficiency of Scripture. Here’s how:

And when you believe in something of error, I guess you can still be a “true-believer”… in error.

I want to know God. I want to know Christ. I want to know about myself. I want to know how I can get to God. I want to know what is going to happen in the future.

The early Catholic Church (in ACTS) dealt with divination, and foretelling the future. The said no then, and they say no now.

In Scripture I find God clearly revelaing Himself. He has chosen to reveal Himself there. Sure He reveals Himself in other ways as well, such as through creation (Ps 19), through man made in His image (Gen 1-3), through His Son (Heb 1:2), through believers, but primarily and most clearly through the Bible.

And God has chosen to reveal Himself in the Eucharist… and some will see that, and many will walk away.

In Scripture I find the truth about the holiness of God, the sinfulness of man, the redemptive plan of Jesus Christ, the gospel of salvation by grace alone, and the secure truth about my future and the Second Coming of Jesus Christ.

Great… thank the Catholic Church for being God’s chosen source to give you that very 73 books.

I DO NOT FIND THESE TRUTHS IN THE CATHOLIC CHURCH. In that system, I find corrupt leadership, good people working their way to heaven, insecurity about salvation b/c I don’t know if my deeds are good enough, a fictitious place called purgatory, and so on. I do not want to follow after a man named Cardinal Mahoney, being that I live in So Cal.

How obvious that you so clearly miss the obvious… thin air in the mountains, I would guess,

Give me God. Give me Jesus Christ. Give me truth about my sinfulness. Give me the true gospel of justification by faith. And give me the truth about my future.

give me, give me, give me… try picking up your cross and daily following Him.

In short, give me the Scriptures, where I can find these truths. I don’t want the corrupt doctrines and practices of the Catholic Church…

Enjoy your self interpretations then… until you get to the verse that warns you against what you want.

 

[Nazianzen]

We are therefore said to be justified by faith, because faith is the beginning of human salvation, the foundation, and the root of all Justification; without which it is impossible to please God, and to come unto the fellowship of His sons: but we are therefore said to be justified freely, because that none of those things which precede justification-whether faith or works-merit the grace itself of justification. For, if it be a grace, it is not now by works, otherwise, as the same Apostle says, grace is no more grace.

Council of Trent, Chapter VI, Session VIII

The consequences of original sin and of all men’s personal sins put the world as a whole in the sinful condition aptly described in St. John’s expression, “the sin of the world”.This expression can also refer to the negative influence exerted on people by communal situations and social structures that are the fruit of men’s sins.

CCC 408

Grace is first and foremost the gift of the Spirit who justifies and sanctifies us. But grace also includes the gifts that the Spirit grants us to associate us with his work, to enable us to collaborate in the salvation of others and in the growth of the Body of Christ, the Church.

CCC 2003

The Gospel is the revelation in Jesus Christ of God’s mercy to sinners. The angel announced to Joseph: “You shall call his name Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins.” The same is true of the Eucharist, the sacrament of redemption: “This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.”

CCC 1846

Liberation and salvation. By his glorious Cross Christ has won salvation for all men. He redeemed them from the sin that held them in bondage. “For freedom Christ has set us free.” In him we have communion with the “truth that makes us free.” The Holy Spirit has been given to us and, as the Apostle teaches, “Where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.” Already we glory in the “liberty of the children of God.”

CCC 1741

By his Revelation, “the invisible God, from the fullness of his love, addresses men as his friends, and moves among them, in order to invite and receive them into his own company.” The adequate response to this invitation is faith.

CCC 142

Which truths do you not find taught in the Catholic Church?

 

[NotWorthy]

Interesting to see the motivation of a works-righteousness theology come out here. Catholics want a list of dos and don’ts. Laying aside the commandment of God (including NT), you hold the tradition of men. This is what motivated Saul for many years, and all Pharisees, but after conversion, Paul called his efforts dung. (Phil 3:5-6).

Interesting that you lump Catholics into a “works-righteousness” theology. Catholics believe that all Christians are saved by Grace, and are most unworthy to receive this gift. (or should I say “not-worthy”? )

Paul exhorted all Christians to refrain form sinning.

By your own standards, your 10 theologians points on Sola Scriptura have produced numerous religions sects that have interpreted the Bible in 100’s or 1000’s of different ways.

Sola Scriptura has dis-proved itself simply through the fruit that it has produced.

 

[toaslan]

Reviewing this thread, I find many places calling for a response from Sola Scriptura adherents. For example, I’d like to hear Mountain Boy’s response to this reasoning:

(from TimmyZ, the 6th post on this thread)

1. All Christians believe in the inspiration of the Bible.
2. The teaching authority of the RCC has taught faith and practice directly contradictory to the Sacred Scriptures.
3. The Christian has nowhere left to turn but Sola Scriptura.

And the response:

What this amounts to is a claim that there is only one internally logically consistent interpretation of Scripture, and the Catholic Chuch contradicts this interpretation. What what little I know about the ambiguity inherent in natural languages, especially Greek, I’d say the claim that there is only one logically consistent interpretation of Scripture is prima facie false.

If there are multiple internally logically consistent interpretations of Scripture, then the question is not “Does the Catholic Church teach faith and practice that contradict my current interpretation of Scripture?” but “Does the Catholic Church possess an internally logically consistent interpretation of Scripture?” From everything I can see, the answer to the second question is “Yes, it does,” in which case I must choose between my internally logically consistent interpretation of Scripture and the Catholic Church’s internally logically consistent interpretation of Scripture. Whatever evidence I use to make that decision, it must be evidence that exists outside of Scripture (since, by definition, no Scriptural evidence could contradict an internally logically consistent interpretation of Scripture), so whether I choose to continue to hold my internally logically consistent interpretation of Scripture or to change my beliefs and hold to the Catholic internally logically consistent interpretation of Scripture, I must integrate some non-Scriptural evidence in making my decision, thus contradicting Sola Scriptura in the process.

The weakest point in this argument is the claim that the Catholic Church possesses an internally consistent interpretation of Scripture, but I’ve not yet found someone who has been able to argue that it does not. Many will try to argue that the Church’s interpretation of Scripture contradicts their interpretation of Scripture, but none have yet been successful arguing that it contradicts its own interpretation of Scripture.

Jeremy

TimmyZ never backed up his #2 point, either…

 

[Church_Militant]

1. This definition is what Christians committed to Sola Scriptura believe. It consists of 10 articles from different Bible believing pastors/theologians unified (you say we’re not united, we are) on the doctrine of Sola Scriptura.

Ten whole guys huh? Out of what? Some thousands of different churches and denoms! If that is unity then somebody better tell the Holy Spirit…

1. We’re all Catholic to some extent. As you know C. means universal. Both groups claim to be part of the apostolic, universal church of Jesus Christ.

Aw, isn’t that special. Yet the Church knows and makes no bones about the fact that you are separated from the fullness of truth.

1. Ironically, my own typo may have mislead your interpretation of this quote. What we mean is, while you Roman Catholics are upset that we departed from the Catholic church in the 16th century, we Protestant Catholics are upset that you Roman Catholics departed from the Catholic church much earlier.

This is a good one here… there is no evidence to support this. The fact is that there is a great deal of evidence that the modern post-reformation step-children maintain a religion that bears very little resemblance to the teachings and beliefs of both the New Testament and the early church. Yet that same examination clearly shows a sameness of belief between modern Catholicism and the New Testament and the early church.

Upset? Nah, only when you hassle our people with anti-Catholic propaganda, and even then most of the time it’s a :yawn:

 

[toaslan]

there have got to be some other Protestants around here who feel like Calvin and I, that

“Nothing can be more absurd than the fiction, that the power of judging Scripture is in the church, and that on her nod its certainty depends…Scripture bears upon the face of it as clear evidence of its truth, as white and black do of their color, sweet and bitter of their taste.” (Institutes, Vol 1).

My first problem with this is the word “feel”. Sure, you both feel like this. Feelings, however, are irrelevant. I get that you think the scriptures are self evident to the sincere reader. The point is that this approach to scripture produces thousands and thousands and thousands of churches which disagree about doctrine.

How many of us have brought up this point so far in this thread???

I am still waiting, MountainBoy, for your response on this one point.

 

[guanophore]

Hi Toaslan…glad to see you found us! Pretty cool forum, huh? And yes, it appears I have stirred up this thread. I was a little overwhelmed today when I sat down and saw the amount of responses to my posts.

To regular forum members, is it typical to have a 4 or 5:1 dogpile on Protestants like this? I mean, I realize I am at Catholic.com, but there have got to be some other Protestants around here who feel like Calvin and I, that

“Nothing can be more absurd than the fiction, that the power of judging Scripture is in the church, and that on her nod its certainty depends…Scripture bears upon the face of it as clear evidence of its truth, as white and black do of their color, sweet and bitter of their taste.” (Institutes, Vol 1).

Oh, yes! We wait for you with eagerness! :knight2:

Since Catholics wrote the NT, collected, canonized, and protected it, and believe that Christ would keep His word that His spirit would always be with us to know the truth, of course we have to take responsibility for authorizing the scripture. Reformed theology notwithstanding.

 

[guanophore]

I want to know God. I want to know Christ. I want to know about myself. I want to know how I can get to God. I want to know what is going to happen in the future.

I want…
I want…
I want…

What about what God wants?

I find God clearly revelaing Himself. He has chosen to reveal Himself there (scripture). Sure He reveals Himself in other ways as well, such as through creation (Ps 19), through man made in His image (Gen 1-3), through His Son (Heb 1:2), through believers, but primarily and most clearly through the Bible.

I am glad you are finding God through scripture. But scripture was never written to be all inclusive. It is infallibile, but the Church is the final authority, and the place where Jesus tells us to go when we have disagreements.

1 Tim 3:15-16
you may know how one ought to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth."

Separating the reading of your Bible from the pillar and bulwark of the truth will cut you off from half the revelation.

I DO NOT FIND THESE TRUTHS IN THE CATHOLIC CHURCH.  In that system, I find corrupt leadership, good people working their way to heaven, insecurity about salvation b/c I don't know if my deeds are good enough, a fictitious place  called purgatory, and so on.  I do not want to follow after a man named Cardinal Mahoney, being that I live in So Cal.

One wonders if you have ever set foot in a CC. Clearly you misunderstand all the doctrines she teaches, and have confused people’s personal sin with sin in the Holy Bride of Christ.

Give me God.  Give me Jesus Christ.  Give me truth about my sinfulness.  Give me the true gospel of justification by faith.  And give me the truth about my future.  \quote]

gimme…
gimme…
gimme…

What about what God expects YOU to give to Him?
MountainBoy11;2128036:

In short, give me the Scriptures, where I can find these truths. I don’t want the corrupt doctrines and practices of the Catholic Church…

You are new here, so I will tell you plainly that you will not be permitted to remain on the forum if you wish to make insulting remarks about the faith of Catholics. You believe the doctrines and practices are corrupt because you have never studied them (I was the same way once). You are entitled to your persistence in ignorance, of course, but you are not entitled to persist in abuse as a result of it. If you are willing to learn, you can learn a lot here about what Catholicism really teaches, instead of the errors you have been given to believe.