Sola Scriptura . . .

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kujo313 said:
Wow! Guess you don’t know the rosary at all. Vaguely remember but I KNOW it mentions the ascension.
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No, kujo, it does not.
kujo313 said:
“Accidental”? I didn’t say that. But when you give Mary titles like “queen of heaven” and “mother of god”, then you pray the rosary and wear scapulars because she supposedly showed up on earth somewhere and said so, I’d say that’s “worship”.
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If Jesus is a King, and she is His mother, then she is the Queen Mother. This has more to say about Jesus than it does Mary. And what does any of it have to do with the topic of the thread? Mary is in the book of Revelation, and she is in the heavens, wearing a crown. Jesus IS God, and she is His mother. This title also says more about Jesus than it does Mary.
kujo313 said:
I guess you also never seen or heard of anybody who “worships” a tv or movie star or a singer. They have lots of pictures and magazines of their favorite star. They can name all of their movies or songs and when they was released. They go to concerts or sightings to get an autograph or even just a glimpse. Guess you are too young to have seen what the crowds were like at Beatles concerts: girls passing out and crying uncontrollably, following them around the country and even the world.
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No, not too young. I know that there are idolators.
kujo313 said:
Then…

There’s the statues and the paintings. There’s a collection of rosaries and scapulars. There’s the prayer books.

I can go on and on.
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Please do! Name more devotionals! Catholics love those.
kujo313 said:
Even though Jesus said “come onto Me” and the disciples did so; even though Peter and James healed a lame man, he didn’t worship THEM; even though John the Baptist had disciples, he told them to follow Jesus and they did and never followed John again…
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Sometime you might consider going thru the scriptures, and looking at the few quotes of Mary. One of the best ones is “do whatever He tells you”.
kujo313 said:
Jesus said “behold your mother” and NONE of the letters of Peter, Paul, John or James ever mentions Mary being so important and significant.
Could it be that something so great in the whole universe was forgotten to be written by 1st century authors?
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Mary is in Christ, and her life is hidden with Christ in God. She is his mother, and He was a good Jew, and He honored His mother and His father. If you do not wish to honor her, that is between you and your maker.
kujo313 said:
HOW could the “queen” be TOLD to somebody and yet not mentioned by Jesus, Himself?
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I am not sure what this is about. But I know that the angel said “Hail Mary, full of grace”. And we pray this scripture, just like you no doubt do other scriptures.
kujo313 said:
Note: only ONE Mediator is even mentioned in the Gospels: Jesus Christ. People walked up to Him directly then as we can today. We don’t have to approach anybody as if He’s got a secretary or anything.
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No, but this topic belongs on another thread. If you really want to discuss it, I will go elsewhere.
 
kujo313 said:
Nope, it’s a “been there, done that”. Spent half of my life in the religion and studied it. Each generation should’ve studied those of Jesus and the Apostles instead of the previous generation’s interruptation of it.
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My friend, you have two interpretations:
  1. Your own fallible interpretation.
  2. Your pastor’s fallible interpretation.
Both are based in part upon your fallible interpretation of RC Sproul and James White and Chuck Colson and John Hagee and whoever else you happen to enjoy reading.

They, in turn, have fallible interpretations of Luther and Calvin and so on.

Don’t pretend you have some “pure” understanding of the Bible when you sit in church each Sunday listening to some man give you his personal, fallible opinion for an hour.
 
kujo313 said:
Wow! Guess you don’t know the rosary at all. Vaguely remember but I KNOW it mentions the ascension.
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The Glorious Mysteries
  1. The Resurrection of Jesus
  2. The Ascension of Jesus
  3. The Descent of the Holy Spirit
  4. The Assumption of Mary
  5. The Coronation of Mary
You’re right: we do mention the Ascension - the Ascension of Jesus.

Mary was assumed into heaven by God.

You might consider Enoch and Elijah as OT examples of this.

Hope this helps. :tiphat:
 
kujo313 said:
I guess you also never seen or heard of anybody who “worships” a tv or movie star or a singer. They have lots of pictures and magazines of their favorite star. They can name all of their movies or songs and when they was released. They go to concerts or sightings to get an autograph or even just a glimpse. Guess you are too young to have seen what the crowds were like at Beatles concerts: girls passing out and crying uncontrollably, following them around the country and even the world.

Then…

There’s the statues and the paintings. There’s a collection of rosaries and scapulars. There’s the prayer books.

I can go on and on.
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And I’m sure you will go on and on in future posts. I just want you to go on with more understanding.

On Honoring Mary as Imitators of Christ

Jesus was a good Jew who obeyed the Law of Moses perfectly, and a key component of the Law is known as the Ten Commandments. The first commandment that deals with our relationships with others states, “Honor your Father and Mother.”

As a dutiful Jewish son who obeyed the law perfectly, Jesus fulfilled this commandment by honoring His Mother. The Hebrew word for “honor” actually means “glorify”. So, Jesus bestows glory on his mother, Mary.

We, as believers, are called to be imitators of God (Ephesians 5:1). At the annunciation, the angel of the Lord called Mary “full of grace”. Through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, the Word of God declares that “from now on all generations will call [Mary] blessed” (cf Luke 1:48). Consequently, we honor Jesus’ mother in our own generation. The Catholic Church was not the first to honor and glorify Mary; Jesus honored and glorified her first, and we simply imitate Jesus by doing the same.

Some might say, “Well, I obey the commandment when I honor my own mother and father, but I don’t need to honor someone else’s mother even if she was the mother of Jesus.” While this is true to one degree, it overlooks three important points on a deeper level.

First, as was already stated, “all generations will call [Mary] blessed”, and our own generation is called to bless and honor her, also.

Second, and more importantly, Mary was made the Mother of the Church by Christ Himself on Calvary. Consider the following passage from the Gospel of John:

“Near the cross of Jesus stood his mother, his mother’s sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene. When Jesus saw his mother there, and the disciple whom he loved standing nearby, he said to his mother, “Dear woman, here is your son,” and to the disciple, “Here is your mother.” From that time on, this disciple took her into his home.” (John 19:25-27)

While this passage is generally used as a proof of the Perpetual Virginity of Mary (Mary went to live with John because she had no other children to care for her after Jesus’ death, resurrection and ascension), it has also been used to illustrate that Mary was made the Mother of the Church since John (representing the Church) was made her son by Jesus. Therefore, like John, we who are members of the Church also look to Mary as our mother.

Finally, in the book of Hebrews we read:

“In bringing many sons to glory, it was fitting that God, for whom and through whom everything exists, should make the author of their salvation perfect through suffering. Both the one who makes men holy and those who are made holy are of the same family. So Jesus is not ashamed to call them brothers. He says, ‘I will declare your name to my brothers; in the presence of the congregation I will sing your praises.’” (Hebrews 2:10-12)

If Jesus is our brother, then in the same sense, Mary is our mother. Following our brother’s example, we honor her according to the commandment.

Hope this helps. :tiphat:
 
guanophore said:
No, kujo, it does not.

If Jesus is a King, and she is His mother, then she is the Queen Mother. This has more to say about Jesus than it does Mary. And what does any of it have to do with the topic of the thread? Mary is in the book of Revelation, and she is in the heavens, wearing a crown. Jesus IS God, and she is His mother. This title also says more about Jesus than it does Mary.

No, not too young. I know that there are idolators.

Please do! Name more devotionals! Catholics love those.

Sometime you might consider going thru the scriptures, and looking at the few quotes of Mary. One of the best ones is “do whatever He tells you”.

Mary is in Christ, and her life is hidden with Christ in God. She is his mother, and He was a good Jew, and He honored His mother and His father. If you do not wish to honor her, that is between you and your maker.

I am not sure what this is about. But I know that the angel said “Hail Mary, full of grace”. And we pray this scripture, just like you no doubt do other scriptures.

No, but this topic belongs on another thread. If you really want to discuss it, I will go elsewhere.
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WHY must you mention Heaven in a worldly way? In the “world”, if there’s a king, there’s a queen. Up until recently in the United Kingdom there was a “queen mother.”

In a Spiritual sense, we are being TAUGHT about the true nature of God as to how we, on earth, can relate. God is our King and our Father. He’s our Teacher and our Healer. He’s our Friend and our Mentor.

Yet, as worldly beings, living for the flesh and having fleshly thoughts, when Jesus mentions “Father”, the world thinks “mother” and takes its focus directly to what He is trying to teach us about the nature of God.
People of the Old Testament saw God as some one to fear. Jesus taught that God is Love. He loves us like a father! He’s our Friend! Our Hope! Our Joy!

Then, just as the word “father” is mentioned, people look in a different direction than God: a worldly woman to call “mother.”

Jesus described God in a way that we could understand Him. That’s what it’s all about! Jesus NEVER mentioned that we had PARENTS. He mentioned that we had a FATHER.

Don’t veer from that. Don’t look elsewhere. Put your blinders on and look in that direction.

Now that you have “tunnel vision”, there is a Light that shows the Way. God put it there. He’s called Jesus.

STOP! Don’t veer off! Stay.
 
kujo313 said:
Note: only ONE Mediator is even mentioned in the Gospels: Jesus Christ. People walked up to Him directly then as we can today. We don’t have to approach anybody as if He’s got a secretary or anything.
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True. Jesus, our King, has a queen.

Mary, Queen of Heaven

Here is the principle of the Queen Mother demonstrated within the House of David from the pages of Holy Writ:

When Bathsheba went to King Solomon to speak to him for Adonijah, the king stood up to meet her, bowed down to her and sat down on his throne. He had a throne brought for the king’s mother, and she sat down at his right hand. (1 Kings 2:19)

Since Solomon had MANY wives, none of them would be queen. In fact, it was his mother that sat on the throne. She entered into Solomon’s presence to intercede on behalf of Adonijah and to petition the king.

Of course, Jesus never married, but the principle of the queen Mother was established long before.

Mary is also seen interceding for others before her son.

John 2:1-11
1On the third day a wedding took place at Cana in Galilee. Jesus’ mother was there, 2and Jesus and his disciples had also been invited to the wedding. 3When the wine was gone, Jesus’ mother said to him, “They have no more wine.”

4"Dear woman, why do you involve me?" Jesus replied, “My time has not yet come.”
5His mother said to the servants, “Do whatever he tells you.”
6Nearby stood six stone water jars, the kind used by the Jews for ceremonial washing, each holding from twenty to thirty gallons.a]
7Jesus said to the servants, “Fill the jars with water”; so they filled them to the brim.
8Then he told them, “Now draw some out and take it to the master of the banquet.”
They did so, 9and the master of the banquet tasted the water that had been turned into wine. He did not realize where it had come from, though the servants who had drawn the water knew. Then he called the bridegroom aside 10and said, “Everyone brings out the choice wine first and then the cheaper wine after the guests have had too much to drink; but you have saved the best till now.” 11This, the first of his miraculous signs, Jesus performed in Cana of Galilee. He thus revealed his glory, and his disciples put their faith in him.

Mary petitioned her Son on behalf of the bridegroom who had run short of wine. Jesus responded positively to her intercession.

He still does.

Hope this helps. :tiphat:
 
kujo313 said:
WHY must you mention Heaven in a worldly way? In the “world”, if there’s a king, there’s a queen. Up until recently in the United Kingdom there was a “queen mother.”
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Thank you for providing this support for our view that Mary is the Queen of Heaven. My post on Mary points to Solomon’s mother, Bathsheba, in just such a way. What a prefigurement!

God must be speaking to you powerfully because He has just opened your eyes to an important truth. :yup:
 
kujo313 said:
Wow! Guess you don’t know the rosary at all. Vaguely remember but I KNOW it mentions the ascension.
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Back to school Kujo.
The rosary does not mention the Ascension of Mary.
The Ascension of Mary is not and never was Catholic teaching.
It is a very small example of your very fallible human understanding - God help us if you were Pope, or your own Pope even.
kujo313 said:
I guess you also never seen or heard of anybody who “worships” a tv or movie star or a singer. They have lots of pictures and magazines of their favorite star. They can name all of their movies or songs and when they was released. They go to concerts or sightings to get an autograph or even just a glimpse. Guess you are too young to have seen what the crowds were like at Beatles concerts: girls passing out and crying uncontrollably, following them around the country and even the world.
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Do they sacrifice animals to their idols or gods.
That is how God chose to be worshipped, don’t ye know.
He even sacrificed His own Son.
That very same sacrifice you will find at every Mass in every Catholic Church every day in every part of the world, for your benefit.
See you, the Catholics worship God as He wishes to be worshipped, and you cannot mistake Catholic worship for anything else.
For it is Christ crucified on Calvary.
The purest sacrifice that could be offered to God.
That is how He chose to be worshipped.
11 For from the rising of the sun even to the going down, my name is great among the Gentiles, and in every place there is sacrifice, and there is offered to my name a clean oblation: for my name is great among the Gentiles, saith the Lord of hosts.
 
Randy_Carson said:
True. Jesus, our King, has a queen.

Mary, Queen of Heaven

Here is the principle of the Queen Mother demonstrated within the House of David from the pages of Holy Writ:

When Bathsheba went to King Solomon to speak to him for Adonijah, the king stood up to meet her, bowed down to her and sat down on his throne. He had a throne brought for the king’s mother, and she sat down at his right hand. (1 Kings 2:19)

Since Solomon had MANY wives, none of them would be queen. In fact, it was his mother that sat on the throne. She entered into Solomon’s presence to intercede on behalf of Adonijah and to petition the king.

Of course, Jesus never married, but the principle of the queen Mother was established long before.

Mary is also seen interceding for others before her son.

John 2:1-11
1On the third day a wedding took place at Cana in Galilee. Jesus’ mother was there, 2and Jesus and his disciples had also been invited to the wedding. 3When the wine was gone, Jesus’ mother said to him, “They have no more wine.”

4"Dear woman, why do you involve me?" Jesus replied, “My time has not yet come.”
5His mother said to the servants, “Do whatever he tells you.”
6Nearby stood six stone water jars, the kind used by the Jews for ceremonial washing, each holding from twenty to thirty gallons.a]
7Jesus said to the servants, “Fill the jars with water”; so they filled them to the brim.
8Then he told them, “Now draw some out and take it to the master of the banquet.”
They did so, 9and the master of the banquet tasted the water that had been turned into wine. He did not realize where it had come from, though the servants who had drawn the water knew. Then he called the bridegroom aside 10and said, “Everyone brings out the choice wine first and then the cheaper wine after the guests have had too much to drink; but you have saved the best till now.” 11This, the first of his miraculous signs, Jesus performed in Cana of Galilee. He thus revealed his glory, and his disciples put their faith in him.

Mary petitioned her Son on behalf of the bridegroom who had run short of wine. Jesus responded positively to her intercession.

He still does.

Hope this helps. :tiphat:
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What DOES help is that there was no mention of Mary by the 1st century church. Also, there was no mentioned as to what happened to Mary until the 1950’s.
Why no mention? Why not? Who should we be focusing on here: the Gift or the box it came in? Which of the two should we be looking at?
It’s the Gift! Jesus Christ!
Nobody in the 1st century church ran around collecting “souviners” (spelling?) or making a kind of “celebrity” of the people. No! If all fingers pointed towards Jesus, then why should you be looking at the person who’s finger is pointing?

I know the Way, I don’t need people to keep showing me. The Church doesn’t either.
 
kujo313 said:
What DOES help is that there was no mention of Mary by the 1st century church. Also, there was no mentioned as to what happened to Mary until the 1950’s.
Why no mention? Why not? Who should we be focusing on here: the Gift or the box it came in? Which of the two should we be looking at?
It’s the Gift! Jesus Christ!
Nobody in the 1st century church ran around collecting “souviners” (spelling?) or making a kind of “celebrity” of the people. No! If all fingers pointed towards Jesus, then why should you be looking at the person who’s finger is pointing?

I know the Way, I don’t need people to keep showing me. The Church doesn’t either.
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EARLY CHURCH FATHERS ON MARY, QUEEN OF HEAVEN

From early times Christians have believed, and not without reason, that she of whom was born the Son of the Most High received privileges of grace above all other beings created by God. He “will reign in the house of Jacob forever,” “the Prince of Peace,” the “King of Kings and Lord of Lords.” And when Christians reflected upon the intimate connection that obtains between a mother and a son, they readily acknowledged the supreme royal dignity of the Mother of God.

Hence it is not surprising that the early writers of the Church called Mary “the Mother of the King” and “the Mother of the Lord,” basing their stand on the words of St. Gabriel the archangel, who foretold that the Son of Mary would reign forever, and on the words of Elizabeth who greeted her with reverence and called her “the Mother of my Lord.” Thereby they clearly signified that she derived a certain eminence and exalted station from the royal dignity of her Son. This royal dignity of the Blessed Virgin Mary is quite clearly indicated through direct assertion by those who call her “Lady,” “Ruler” and “Queen.”

Origen (185-232 AD)

“Thou, my Lady.” (Hom. in S. Lucam, hom. VII; ed. Rauer, Origenes’ Werke, T. IX, p. 48 (ex catena Marcarii Chrysocephali). Cf. PG XIII, 1902 D.)

St. Ephrem (306-373 AD)

“Let Heaven sustain me in its embrace, because I am honored above it. For heaven was not Thy mother, but Thou hast made it Thy throne. How much more honorable and venerable than the throne of a king is her mother.” (St. Ephrem, Hymni de B. Maria, ed. Th. J. Lamy, t. II, Mechliniae, 1886, hymn. XIX, p. 624.)

“. . . Majestic and Heavenly Maid, Lady, Queen, protect and keep me under your wing lest Satan the sower of destruction glory over me, lest my wicked foe be victorious against me.” (Oratio ad Ssmam Dei Matrem; Opera omnia, Ed. Assemani, t. III (graece), Romae, 1747, pag. 546.)

St. Gregory Nazianzen (329-389 AD)

“the Mother of the King of the universe,” and the “Virgin Mother who brought forth the King of the whole world,” (S. Gregorius Naz., Poemata dogmatica, XVIII, v. 58; PG XXXVII, 485.)

Prudentius (348-413 AD)

“that she has brought forth God as man, and even as Supreme King.” (Prudentius, Dittochaeum, XXVII: PL LX, 102 A.)

St. Jerome** (320-420 AD)**

“We should realize that Mary means Lady in the Syrian Language.” (S. Hieronymus, Liber de nominibus hebraeis: PL XXIII, 886.)

St. Peter Chrysologus (406-450 AD)

“The Hebrew word ‘Mary’ means ‘Domina.’ The Angel therefore addresses her as ‘Lady’ to preclude all servile fear in the Lord’s Mother, who was born and was called ‘Lady’ by the authority and command of her own Son.” (S. Petrus Chrysologus, Sermo 142, De Annuntiatione B.M.V.: PL LII, 579 C; cf. etiam 582 B; 584 A: “Regina totius exstitit castitatis.”)

Epiphanius, Bishop of Constantinople (d. 535 AD)

“[We should pray that the unity of the Church may be preserved] by the grace of the holy and consubstantial Trinity and by the prayers of Mary, Our Lady, the holy and glorious Virgin and Mother of God." (Relatio Epiphanii Ep. Constantin.: PL LXII, 498 D.)

St. Ildephonsus of Toledo (?-667 AD)

“O my Lady, my Sovereign, You who rule over me, Mother of my Lord . . . Lady among handmaids, Queen among sisters.” (Ildefonsus Toletanus, De virginitate perpetua B.M.V.: PL XCVI, 58 A D.)

(cont.)
 
St. Andrew of Crete (c. 660-740 AD)

“Today He transports from her earthly dwelling, as Queen of the human race, His ever-Virgin Mother, from whose womb He, the living God, took on human form.” (S. Andreas Cretensis, Homilia II in Dormitionem Ssmae Deiparae: PG XCVII, 1079 B.)

“the Queen of the entire human race faithful to the exact meaning of her name, who is exalted above all things save only God himself.” (Homilia III in Dormitionem Ssmae Deiparae: PG XCVII, 1099 A.)

St. Germanus (c. 640-740 AD)

“Be enthroned, Lady, for it is fitting that you should sit in an exalted place since you are a Queen and glorious above all kings.” (S. Germanus, In Praesentationem Ssmae Deiparae, I: PG XCVIII, 303 A.)

“Queen of all of those who dwell on earth.” (In Praesentationem Ssmae Deiparae, n PG XCVIII, 315 C.)

St.** John Damascene (676-c. 760 AD)**

“Queen, ruler, and lady,” (S. Ioannes Damascenus, Homilia I in Dormitionem B.M.V.: P.G. XCVI, 719 A.)

“the Queen of every creature.” (De fide orthodoxa, I, IV, c. 14: PG XLIV, 1158 B.)

Hope this helps. :tiphat:
 
Kujo,

Can you START A NEW THREAD rather than completely hijack this one???

BTW, In my daily Rosary, I never mention that Mary Ascended into Heaven. Go check your facts again, my friend. Either one of your friends is mis-feeding you information on the Catholic Church (some people may even call this lying…) or you are coming to completely false assumptions on your own. Which is it, because I don’t see the Holy Spirit’s guidance in either of those options.

Mary was Assumed into Heaven (Assumed by the Power and Authority of God, not Ascended under her own power).
 
kujo313 said:
What DOES help is that there was no mention of Mary by the 1st century church. Also, there was no mentioned as to what happened to Mary until the 1950’s.
Why no mention? Why not?
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The 1950’s? Check again.

Early Church Fathers on the Assumption of Mary
Pseudo – Melito

If therefore it might come to pass by the power of your grace, it has appeared right to us your servants that, as you, having overcome death, do reign in glory, so you should raise up the body of your Mother and take her with you, rejoicing, into heaven. Then said the Savior [Jesus]: “Be it done according to your will” (The Passing of the Virgin 16:2-17 A.D. 300]).
Timothy of Jerusalem

Therefore the Virgin is immortal to this day, seeing that he who had dwelt in her transported her to the regions of her assumption (Homily on Simeon and Anna A.D. 400]).
John the Theologian

The Lord said to his Mother, “Let your heart rejoice and be glad. For every favor and every gift has been given to you from my Father in heaven and from me and from the Holy Spirit. Every soul that calls upon your name shall not be ashamed, but shall find mercy and comfort and support and confidence, both in the world that now is and in that which is to come, in the presence of my Father in the heavens”. . . And from that time forth all knew that the spotless and precious body had been transferred to paradise (The Dormition of Mary A.D. 400]).
Gregory of Tours

[T]he Apostles took up her body on a bier and placed it in a tomb; and they guarded it, expecting the Lord to come. And behold, again the Lord stood by them; and the holy body having been received, He commanded that it be taken in a cloud into paradise: where now, rejoined to the soul, [Mary] rejoices with the Lord’s chosen ones. . . (Eight Books of Miracles 1:4 A.D. 575]).
Theoteknos of Livias

It was fitting … that the most holy-body of Mary, God-bearing body, receptacle of God, divinised, incorruptible, illuminated by divine grace and full glory … should be entrusted to the earth for a little while and raised up to heaven in glory, with her soul pleasing to God (*Homily on the Assumption *[ca. **A.D. 600]).
Modestus of Jerusalem

As the most glorious Mother of Christ, our Savior and God and the giver of life and immortality, has been endowed with life by him, she has received an eternal incorruptibility of the body together with him who has raised her up from the tomb and has taken her up to himself in a way known only to him (*Encomium in dormitionnem Sanctissimae Dominae nostrae Deiparae semperque Virginis Mariae *[ante **A.D. 634]).
Germanus of Constantinople

You are she who, as it is written, appears in beauty, and your virginal body is all holy, all chaste, entirely the dwelling place of God, so that it is henceforth completely exempt from dissolution into dust. Though still human, it is changed into the heavenly life of incorruptibility, truly living and glorious, undamaged and sharing in perfect life (Sermon I A.D. 683]).
John Damascene

It was fitting that the she, who had kept her virginity intact in childbirth, should keep her own body free from all corruption even after death. It was fitting that she, who had carried the Creator as a child at her breast, should dwell in the divine tabernacles. It was fitting that the spouse, whom the Father had taken to himself, should live in the divine mansions. It was fitting that she, who had seen her Son upon the cross and who had thereby received into her heart the sword of sorrow which she had escaped when giving birth to him, should look upon him as he sits with the Father, It was fitting that God’s Mother should possess what belongs to her Son, and that she should be honored by every creature as the Mother and as the handmaid of God (Dormition of Mary A.D. 697])
Gregorian Sacramentary

Venerable to us, O Lord, is the festivity of this day on which the holy Mother of God suffered temporal death, but still could not be kept down by the bonds of death, who has begotten Thy Son our Lord incarnate from herself (Gregorian Sacramentary, Veneranda [ante **A.D. 795]).

Hope this helps. :tiphat:
 
down_under said:
show us where the bible is an athoritative interperator of itself. I would like to see that. Show us any other athoritatve interperator of the bible that can keep us all an the same page. other wise you have your passages and I have mine and who knows who is right. You sure cant tell me because according to you I am always right because I can interperate it myself.
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Dude, that last sentence is sooo funny, actually laughed out loud with ya’. :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:
 
kujo313 said:
WHY must you mention Heaven in a worldly way? In the “world”, if there’s a king, there’s a queen. Up until recently in the United Kingdom there was a “queen mother.”

In a Spiritual sense, we are being TAUGHT about the true nature of God as to how we, on earth, can relate. God is our King and our Father. He’s our Teacher and our Healer. He’s our Friend and our Mentor.

Yet, as worldly beings, living for the flesh and having fleshly thoughts, when Jesus mentions “Father”, the world thinks “mother” and takes its focus directly to what He is trying to teach us about the nature of God.
People of the Old Testament saw God as some one to fear. Jesus taught that God is Love. He loves us like a father! He’s our Friend! Our Hope! Our Joy!

Then, just as the word “father” is mentioned, people look in a different direction than God: a worldly woman to call “mother.”

Jesus described God in a way that we could understand Him. That’s what it’s all about! Jesus NEVER mentioned that we had PARENTS. He mentioned that we had a FATHER.

Don’t veer from that. Don’t look elsewhere. Put your blinders on and look in that direction.

Now that you have “tunnel vision”, there is a Light that shows the Way. God put it there. He’s called Jesus.

STOP! Don’t veer off! Stay.
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Since we are in the Sola Scriptura thread,Kujo, I recommend you read the book of Revelation, and tell me who that woman is that John saw in the heavens.
 
kujo313 said:
Nope, it’s a “been there, done that”. Spent half of my life in the religion and studied it. Each generation should’ve studied those of Jesus and the Apostles instead of the previous generation’s interruptation of it.
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With all due respect my brother, you must not have studied it well.

Your comment on “Mary ascending to heaven” is a show of that.
 
Sola Scriptura is the root of the confusion one finds in Protestantism. If the Bible is self-interpreting, then it should be clearly understood. The fact that so many sincere Christians have different and conflicting interpretations demonstrates that its not. God is not the author of confusion and the diversity of doctrine found in Protestantism is not the work of the Holy Spirit. It is rooted in a doctrine that does not even have a clear basis in Scripture. The verses used to defend Sola Scriptura are, at most, ambiguous. A doctrine that is so “fundamental” to Christianity should be clearly stated in Scripture, particularly when Scripture is supposed to be the sole infallible rule of faith for Christian doctrine.

God Bless,
Michael
 
guanophore said:
Since we are in the Sola Scriptura thread,Kujo, I recommend you read the book of Revelation, and tell me who that woman is that John saw in the heavens.
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In Revelation chapter 12, the woman is described as “clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars” (Revelation 12:1). Note the similarity between this description and the description that Joseph gave of his father Jacob (Israel) and his mother and their children (Genesis 37:9-11). The stars refer to the twelve tribes of Israel. So, the woman in Revelation 12 is Israel.
The Jews, God’s Chosen People, whom came the Messiah, say that she’s Israel.
There ARE similarities between the woman being either Israel and Mary.

However, when it speaks of the woman fleeing into the wilderness for 1,260 days, it is referring to the future time called the Tribulation period. 1,260 days is 42 months of 30 days each. 42 months is 3 1/2 years. Halfway through the Tribulation period, the beast will set an image of himself up in the temple that will be built. This is the abomination that Jesus spoke of in Matthew 24:15 and Mark 13:14. When the beast does this, he breaks the peace pact he made with Israel, and the nation has to flee for safety (also see Matthew 24; Daniel 9:27).
Revelation 12:12-17 speak of how the devil will make war against Israel, trying to destroy her (Satan knows his time is short, relatively speaking–see Revelation 20:1-3, 10). It also speaks of how God will protect Israel while in the wilderness. This wilderness place where Israel will flee is believed to be a place called Petra. Note Revelation 12:14 where it says that Israel will be protected from the devil for "a time, times, and half a time (a time = 1 year – 3 1/2 years).
 
Randy_Carson said:
The 1950’s? Check again.

Early Church Fathers on the Assumption of Mary
Pseudo – Melito

If therefore it might come to pass by the power of your grace, it has appeared right to us your servants that, as you, having overcome death, do reign in glory, so you should raise up the body of your Mother and take her with you, rejoicing, into heaven. Then said the Savior [Jesus]: “Be it done according to your will” (The Passing of the Virgin 16:2-17 A.D. 300]).
Timothy of Jerusalem

Therefore the Virgin is immortal to this day, seeing that he who had dwelt in her transported her to the regions of her assumption (Homily on Simeon and Anna A.D. 400]).
John the Theologian

The Lord said to his Mother, “Let your heart rejoice and be glad. For every favor and every gift has been given to you from my Father in heaven and from me and from the Holy Spirit. Every soul that calls upon your name shall not be ashamed, but shall find mercy and comfort and support and confidence, both in the world that now is and in that which is to come, in the presence of my Father in the heavens”. . . And from that time forth all knew that the spotless and precious body had been transferred to paradise (The Dormition of Mary A.D. 400]).
Gregory of Tours

[T]he Apostles took up her body on a bier and placed it in a tomb; and they guarded it, expecting the Lord to come. And behold, again the Lord stood by them; and the holy body having been received, He commanded that it be taken in a cloud into paradise: where now, rejoined to the soul, [Mary] rejoices with the Lord’s chosen ones. . . (Eight Books of Miracles 1:4 A.D. 575]).
Theoteknos of Livias

It was fitting … that the most holy-body of Mary, God-bearing body, receptacle of God, divinised, incorruptible, illuminated by divine grace and full glory … should be entrusted to the earth for a little while and raised up to heaven in glory, with her soul pleasing to God (*Homily on the Assumption *[ca. **A.D. 600
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]).
Modestus of Jerusalem

As the most glorious Mother of Christ, our Savior and God and the giver of life and immortality, has been endowed with life by him, she has received an eternal incorruptibility of the body together with him who has raised her up from the tomb and has taken her up to himself in a way known only to him (*Encomium in dormitionnem Sanctissimae Dominae nostrae Deiparae semperque Virginis Mariae *[ante **A.D. 634]).
Germanus of Constantinople

You are she who, as it is written, appears in beauty, and your virginal body is all holy, all chaste, entirely the dwelling place of God, so that it is henceforth completely exempt from dissolution into dust. Though still human, it is changed into the heavenly life of incorruptibility, truly living and glorious, undamaged and sharing in perfect life (Sermon I A.D. 683]).
John Damascene

It was fitting that the she, who had kept her virginity intact in childbirth, should keep her own body free from all corruption even after death. It was fitting that she, who had carried the Creator as a child at her breast, should dwell in the divine tabernacles. It was fitting that the spouse, whom the Father had taken to himself, should live in the divine mansions. It was fitting that she, who had seen her Son upon the cross and who had thereby received into her heart the sword of sorrow which she had escaped when giving birth to him, should look upon him as he sits with the Father, It was fitting that God’s Mother should possess what belongs to her Son, and that she should be honored by every creature as the Mother and as the handmaid of God (Dormition of Mary A.D. 697])
Gregorian Sacramentary

Venerable to us, O Lord, is the festivity of this day on which the holy Mother of God suffered temporal death, but still could not be kept down by the bonds of death, who has begotten Thy Son our Lord incarnate from herself (Gregorian Sacramentary, Veneranda [ante **A.D. 795]).

Hope this helps. :tiphat:

All of that sounds like “Mary Worship” to me.
 
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