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kujo313
Guest
Tradition of “Mary Worship”.
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HailMary
Guest
Surely, kujo313, you don’t claim to be more enlightened than these Saints when it comes to Christianity, and specifically, devotion to Our Lady, do you?
Do you really think that anyone will be quoting you 1000+ years from now on your thoughts on Christianity? 1000 years! Will anyone remember what you say after this thread is closed? Probably not. Thats the difference between Early Church Fathers as the ones quoted above and you, they are “Imitations of Christ” 1 Cor. 11:1], in the sense that they give Mary her due honor. If you want to imitate Christ, you must love Mary as your own Mother. You do her a huge dishonor to label 2000 years of sincere devotion to Christ’s Blessed Mother, as “worship” (in the latria sense) . This is from your supreme ignorance of what worship really is and what veneration (dulia ) really is.
So I will ask again, honestly, do you really think you are more enlightened than the Saints quoted above on the subject at hand?
Do you really think that anyone will be quoting you 1000+ years from now on your thoughts on Christianity? 1000 years! Will anyone remember what you say after this thread is closed? Probably not. Thats the difference between Early Church Fathers as the ones quoted above and you, they are “Imitations of Christ” 1 Cor. 11:1], in the sense that they give Mary her due honor. If you want to imitate Christ, you must love Mary as your own Mother. You do her a huge dishonor to label 2000 years of sincere devotion to Christ’s Blessed Mother, as “worship” (in the latria sense) . This is from your supreme ignorance of what worship really is and what veneration (dulia ) really is.
So I will ask again, honestly, do you really think you are more enlightened than the Saints quoted above on the subject at hand?
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NotWorthy
Guest
So you’re saying that the woman can represent Israel AND Mary!
Good job, Kujo!!!
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NotWorthy
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And that sounds like “being judgmental” to me.
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elation37
Guest
In reply to Post #2 – “what’s there to joust about? nowhere in Scripture does it teach Scripture alone.”
Nowhere seems to be a stretch because, Jesus said as much when He was confronted by the Devil in the wilderness. (See Matthew 4:4)
Since Jesus used the scriptures in response to the Devil, it would seem that He was stating the authority of the scriptures.
Thus, the problem would seem to be “what are the scriptures and how is scripture to be determined?”
Jesus also said that the Holy Spirit would guide “you” (He was speaking to the Apostles) (See John 16:12-15)
Therefore, the Holy Spirit working through the Apostles would present God’s Word to a new people (The Church).
Problems seem to occur when people who claim to be leaders of the Church “stretch” the scriptures for their own purpose. When this occurs, the leaders are leading the flock down a “slippery-slope” that may or may not lead to the flock being weakened and thus unable or unwilling to follow the commandments of Jesus Christ.
So, how does a believer know what to believe as to the scriptures?
An excellent example would be found in Acts 17:10-11. The Jews in Berea examined the writings of the OT prophets to see if what Paul was teaching could be backed-up by the scriptures.
Perhaps what every believer should do is to personally read and study the OT. This would give a foundation of understanding that could then be applied to reading and studying the NT scriptures.
Do you agree?
Nowhere seems to be a stretch because, Jesus said as much when He was confronted by the Devil in the wilderness. (See Matthew 4:4)
Since Jesus used the scriptures in response to the Devil, it would seem that He was stating the authority of the scriptures.
Thus, the problem would seem to be “what are the scriptures and how is scripture to be determined?”
Jesus also said that the Holy Spirit would guide “you” (He was speaking to the Apostles) (See John 16:12-15)
Therefore, the Holy Spirit working through the Apostles would present God’s Word to a new people (The Church).
Problems seem to occur when people who claim to be leaders of the Church “stretch” the scriptures for their own purpose. When this occurs, the leaders are leading the flock down a “slippery-slope” that may or may not lead to the flock being weakened and thus unable or unwilling to follow the commandments of Jesus Christ.
So, how does a believer know what to believe as to the scriptures?
An excellent example would be found in Acts 17:10-11. The Jews in Berea examined the writings of the OT prophets to see if what Paul was teaching could be backed-up by the scriptures.
Perhaps what every believer should do is to personally read and study the OT. This would give a foundation of understanding that could then be applied to reading and studying the NT scriptures.
Do you agree?
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I_Leatherman
Guest
Even the devil can cite Scripture for his own purpose.
The same Church He said He would remain with, continuously, until the end of time and protect faithfully - not even the gates of hell can prevail against what God builds.
But you have to call God a liar if you say that he abandoned His Church for 1500 years and the gates of hell did prevail over it.
But who would claim this?
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elation37
Guest
God has NEVER abandoned his True Church and NEVER will. The True Church are individuals that are called out believers. However, He has given some individuals and churches over to the devil.
Just look around at all the heresy that presents itself as “Christian”.
Just look around at all the heresy that presents itself as “Christian”.
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kaycee
Guest
Only if you define the church as the man made church of Rome.
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Tomster
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It is significant that all those, since the Reformation, have departed from the traditional lines laid down so clearly in the Councils of Chalcedon and Constantinople II, have - at least equivalently - fallen into one of the heresies of Nestorianism or Monophysisism
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Randy_Carson
Guest
Then perhaps you do not understand worship.
But to the point, you had stated that none of this appeared before the 1950’s.
Your assertion has been completely refuted.
Hope this helps. :tiphat:
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elation37
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Are you saying that only those that are members of the RCC are the True Church? ie – RCC is only True Church of Jesus Christ – all its leaders? All its current and past leaders? Clarify please.
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I_Leatherman
Guest
Silly.
The Church is the people.
The people are the Church.
The Church buildings are where the people, the Church, worships.
But the place of worship could be anywhere, a house, field, mountain top.
The early Church, the people, recorded their beliefs - the Churches beliefs - Christs Churches beliefs.
What to do?
Easy. Go and read what they wrote about themselves, the people, the Church, the Church Christ promised to protect until the end of time.
Ye are supposed to be protestants - who wish to return to the ways of the early Church - well go read, study the records of that early Church.
Good luck.
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Randy_Carson
Guest
Again, you made the assertion that the Assumption of Mary was a modern invention of the Catholic Church.
It has now been demonstrated to you that this belief is ancient - far more ancient than any Protestant “tradition” springing from the 16th century.
Speaking of early Protestantism, here are a few more quotes that you might enjoy:
**Luther, Calvin, and Other Early Protestants **on the Perpetual Virginity of Mary
Martin Luther
“Christ, our Savior, was the real and natural fruit of Mary’s virginal womb…This was without the cooperation of a man, and she remained a virgin after that.”
“Christ…was the only Son of Mary, and the Virgin Mary bore no children besides Him…I am inclined to agree with those who declare that ‘brothers’ really mean ‘cousins’ here, for Holy Writ and the Jews always call cousins brothers.”
“A new lie about me is being circulated. I am supposed to have preached and written that Mary, the mother of God, was not a virgin either before or after the birth of Christ…”
“Scripture does not say or indicate that she later lost her virginity…When Matthew says that Joseph did not know Mary carnally until she had brought forth her son, it does not follow that he knew her subsequently; on the contrary, it means that he never did know her…This babble…is without justification…he has neither noticed nor paid any attention to either Scripture or the common idiom.”
John Calvin
“Helvidius displayed excessive ignorance in concluding that Mary must have had many sons, because Christ’s ‘brothers’ are sometimes mentioned.”
“The inference he [Helvidius] drew from it was, that Mary remained a virgin no longer than till her first birth, and that afterwards she had other children by her husband…No just and well-grounded inference can be drawn from these words…as to what took place after the birth of Christ. He is called ‘first-born’; but it is for the sole purpose of informing us that he was born of a virgin…What took place afterwards the historian does not inform us…No man will obstinately keep up the argument, except from an extreme fondness for disputation.”
“Under the word ‘brethren’ the Hebrews include all cousins and other relations, whatever may be the degree of affinity.”
Huldreich Zwingli
“I have never thought, still less taught, or declared publicly, anything concerning the subject of the ever Virgin Mary, Mother of our salvation, which could be considered dishonourable, impious, unworthy or evil…I believe with all my heart according to the word of holy gospel that this pure virgin bore for us the Son of God and that she remained, in the birth and after it, a pure and unsullied virgin, for eternity.”
Heinrich Bullinger
“The Virgin Mary…completely sanctified by the grace and blood of her only Son and abundantly endowed by the gift of the Holy Spirit and preferred to all…now lives happily with Christ in heaven and is called and remains ever-Virgin and Mother of God.”
John Wesley
“I believe…he [Jesus Christ] was born of the blessed Virgin, who, as well after as shebrought him forth, continued a pure and unspotted virgin.”
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elation37
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Previous post #282 was to Kaycee – will she answer?
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Randy_Carson
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Catholics agree. This is fulfilled through Apostolic Succession and infallibility - two characteristics you will find within the Catholic Church.
Nothing could be further from the truth.
Communion of Saints Proved from Scripture
1. All Christians are connected through the Body of Christ
“If one part suffers, every part suffers with it; if one part is honored, every part rejoices with it.” (1 Corinthians 12:26)
“If anyone has caused grief, he has not so much grieved me as he has grieved all of you” (2 Corinthians 2:5)
2. Every Christian is a member of the Body of Christ
“Just as each of us has one body with many members, and these members do not all have the same function, so in Christ we who are many form one body, and each member belongs to all the others.” (Romans 12:4-5)
“The body is a unit, though it is made up of many parts; and though all its parts are many, they form one body. So it is with Christ. For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink.” (1 Corinthians 12:12-13)
2.5 We become members of the Body of Christ through baptism
“having been buried with him in baptism and raised with him through your faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead.” (Colossians 2:12)
“We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.” (Romans 6:4)
“for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.” (Galatians 3:27)
3. Physical death does not separate us from the Body of Christ
“For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.” (Romans 8:38-39)
**4. There is only one Body of Christ, in Heaven and on Earth; **
“by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace, and in this one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility.” (Ephesians 2:15-16)
“There is one body and one Spirit—just as you were called to one hope when you were called—one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.” (Ephesians 4:4-5)
**5. The Church is the Body of Christ; **
“And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.” (Ephesians 1:22-23)
“And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy” (Colossians 1:18)
**6. Just as we can pray for one another, we can suffer for one another; **
“Now I rejoice in what was suffered for you, and I fill up in my flesh what is still lacking in regard to Christ’s afflictions, for the sake of his body, which is the church. (Colossians 1:24)
Paul does the same in Corinthians.
Catholics agree. One of the five major heresies is called “Protestantism”.
Hope this helps. :tiphat:
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elation37
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Your ability to cut n paste is acknowledged.
Perhaps you can share what are the other 4 heresies?
Don’t do a lot of cut n paste to explain your understanding – just some simple statement of your own – OK?
Perhaps you can share what are the other 4 heresies?
Don’t do a lot of cut n paste to explain your understanding – just some simple statement of your own – OK?
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Randy_Carson
Guest
Since I wrote that article on the communion of saints myself, I kinda resent the accusation.
Please understand that because I do “epologetics” a lot, I have created Word files on all the major topics that come up which I can use again and again.
Surely you don’t think you’re the first non-Catholic to appear in this forum and make these weary arguments?
Why do I have to reinvent the wheel each time?As for the five “great” heresies, Hilaire Belloc names them in his book,** The Great Heresies**, published in 1938:
Arianism
Islam
Albigensianism
Protestantism
Modernism
Presciently, he predicted the re-emergence of Islam as a major threat more than 60 years ago.
Hope this helps. :tiphat:
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MrS
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For nearly 1500 years the only use of the word “church” was in the context of the Catholic Church (and the breakaway Orthodox Church).
I still contend that any other grouping of theological thought is at best only a faith community.
There is therefore only the original Church… founded by Jesus Himself
and
the man-made churches your refer to which stem from the reformers… and are not really churches at all…just communities of protesters.
That said… either Jesus lied and His Church no longer exists, or the only claimant to that title is true… and that would be the Catholic Church of which you have little or no understanding.
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elation37
Guest
You wrote: “Since I wrote that article on the communion
myself, I kinda resent the accusation.”
Sorry if I offended you. Was just asking for simple answers since my eyesight is not good.
I will look up Albigensianism since that one is new to me. Thanks.
Do you have a more recent update on the Five Heresies beyond – “Hilaire Belloc names them in his book,* The Great Heresies*,
published in 1938”?
Thanks
myself, I kinda resent the accusation.”
Sorry if I offended you. Was just asking for simple answers since my eyesight is not good.
I will look up Albigensianism since that one is new to me. Thanks.
Do you have a more recent update on the Five Heresies beyond – “Hilaire Belloc names them in his book,* The Great Heresies*,
published in 1938”?
Thanks
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MrS
Guest
Well I guess relativism would/could be added to the list… but really it is just re-worked and/or combination of the five which Randy mentioned.
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