Sola scripture from satan

[anthony022071]

…or more accurately the apostolic traditions of the church.

I have not problem with that statement. So all you have to do is to demonstrate that an unwritten tradition originates with the apostles.

Basil, The Holy Spirit (c. A.D. 370):

“The day would fail me, if I went through the mysteries of the Church which are not in Scripture. I pass by the others, the very confession of faith, in Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, from what written document have we?”

…"Of the dogmas and kerygmas preserved in the Church, some we posses from written teaching and others we received from the Tradition of the Apostles, handed on to us in mystery. In respect to piety both are of the same force. No one will contradict any of these, no one, at any rate, who is even moderately versed in matters ecclesiastical. Indeed, were we to try to reject unwritten customs as having no great authority, we would unwittingly injure the Gospel in its vitals; or rather, we would reduce kerygma to a mere term. For instance, to take the first and most general example, who taught us in writing to sign with the sign of the cross those who have trusted in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ? What writing has taught us to turn to the East in prayer? Which of the saints left us in writing the words of the epiclesis at the consecration of the Bread of the Eucharist and of the Cup of Benediction? For we are not content with those words the Apostle or the Gospel has recorded, but we say other things also, both before and after; and we regard these other words, which we have received from unwritten teaching, as being of great importance to the mystery.

Where is it written that we are to bless the baptismal water, the oil of anointing, and even the one who is being baptized? Is it not from the silent and mystical tradition? Indeed, in what written word is even the anointing oil taught? Where does it say that in baptizing there is to be a triple immersion? And the rest of the things done at baptism – where is it written that we are to renounce Satan and his angels? Does this not come from that secret and arcane teaching which our Fathers guarded in a silence not too curiously meddled with and not idly investigated, when they had learned well that reverence for the mysteries is best preserved by silence… In the same way the Apostles and Fathers who, in the beginning, prescribed the Church’s rites, guarded in secrecy and silence the dignity of the mysteries; for that which is blabbed at random and in the public ear is no mystery at all. This is the reason for our handing on of unwritten precepts and practices; that the knowledge of our dogmas may not be neglected and held in contempt by the multitude through too great a familiarity. Dogma and kerygma are two distinct things. Dogma is observed in silence; kerygma is proclaimed to all the world"

 

[anthony022071]

Basil, The Holy Spirit:

“Moreover, as relating to the assertion that the Doxology containing the words “together with the Spirit” is unwitnessed and unwritten, what we have to say is that if nothing else that is unwritten is admissible, then let this not be admitted either; but if the most of the mysteries are conveyed to us outside the scriptures, let us accept this one too together with numerous others. It is a usage that Apostolical, I presume, to adhere to unwritten and extra-biblical traditions. For it says: “Now I praise you, brethren, that ye remember me in all things, and keep the Traditions as I have delivered them to you” (I Cor 11:2). And: “Hold fast to the Traditions which ye have been taught, whether orally or through an epistle of ours” (II Thess 2:15), one of which indeed is the present one, which the first originators composed and handed on to their successors, in due process of time and ever mindful of usage, and have firmly rooted in the Churches by dint of long custom. If, therefore, we are at a loss to present written evidence as though in a court of justice, but can produce a whole multitude of witnesses, should we not received an express permission from you. The way I look at the matter is as follows: “At the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established” (Deut 19:15). But if, on the other hand, we have exhibited the fact to you perspicuously for a long time, should we not except you naturally enough to say that there is no evidence to warrant our being put on trial. For how can it be denied that the old doctrines are awesome and entitled to veneration because of their hoary antiquity?”

 

[Metaron]

Vincent of Lerins:

“If one should ask one of the heretics who gives you this advice, 'How
do you prove [your assertion]? What ground have you for saying
that I ought to cast away the universal and ancient faith of the
Catholic Church? He has the answer ready: ‘For it is written.’ And
forthwith he produces a thousand examples, a thousand authorities
from the Law, from the Psalms, from the apostles, from the
prophets, by means of which, interpreted on a new and wrong
principle, the unhappy soul may be precipitated from the height of
Catholic truth to the lowest abyss of heresy… Do heretics
appeal to Scripture? They do indeed, and with a vengeance. For you
may see them scamper through every single book of Holy Scripture
… Whether among their own people or among strangers, in private
or in public, in speaking or in writing, at convivial meetings or
in the streets, hardly ever do they bring forward anything of
their own which they do not endeavor to shelter under the words of
Scripture… You will see an infinite heap of instances, hardly a
single page, which does not bristle with plausible quotations from
the New Testament or the Old” ( 25,26,25).

Wow. Was he speaking of the Sola Scripturist or what? :coffeeread:

 

[SyCarl]

All that really can be said about the church fathers is that they are not necessarily consistent.

Irenaeus says that the Apostles first publically proclaimed the Gospel (oral tradition), then recorded it in Scripture.

We have learned from none others the plan of our salvation, than from those through whom the Gospel has come down to us, which they did at one time proclaim in public, and, at a later period, by the will of God, handed down to us in the Scriptures, to be the ground and pillar of our faith.-Irenaeus (Against Heresies Book 3, Chapter 1. Paragraph 1.)
newadvent.org/fathers/0103301.htm

He also says that Scripture can be understood by anyone.

A sound mind, and one which does not expose its possessor to danger, and is devoted to piety and the love of truth, will eagerly meditate upon those things which God has placed within the power of mankind, and has subjected to our knowledge, and will make advancement in [acquaintance with] them, rendering the knowledge of them easy to him by means of daily study. These things are such as fall [plainly] under our observation, and are clearly and unambiguously in express terms set forth in the Sacred ScripturesY.Since, therefore, the entire Scriptures, the prophets, and the Gospels, can be clearly, unambiguously, and harmoniously understood by all, although all do not believe them; and since they proclaim that one only God, to the exclusion of all others, formed all things by His word, whether visible or invisible, heavenly or earthly, in the water or under the earth, as I have shown from the very words of Scripture; and since the very system of creation to which we belong testifies, by what falls under our notice, that one Being made and governs it,Cthose persons will seem truly foolish who blind their eyes to such a clear demonstration, and will not behold the light of the announcement [made to them]; but they put fetters upon themselves, and every one of them imagines, by means of their obscure interpretations of the parables, that he has found out a God of his own.-Irenaeus (Against Heresies Book 2, Chapter 27, Paragraphs 1 & 2.
newadvent.org/fathers/0103227.htm

Hippolytus says that our only source of knowledge about God is Scripture.

1. There is, brethren, one God, the knowledge of whom we gain from the Holy Scriptures, and from no other source. For just as a man, if he wishes to be skilled in the wisdom of this world, will find himself unable to get at it in any other way than by mastering the dogmas of philosophers, so all of us who wish to practise piety will be unable to learn its practice from any other quarter than the oracles of God. Whatever things, then, the Holy Scriptures declare, at these let us took; and whatsoever things they teach, these let us learn; and as the Father wills our belief to be, let us believe; and as He wills the Son to be glorified, let us glorify Him; and as He wills the Holy Spirit to be bestowed, let us receive Him. Not according to our own will, nor according to our own mind, nor yet as using violently those things which are given by God, but even as He has chosen to teach them by the Holy Scriptures, so let us discern them.- Hippolytus (Against Noetus, Paragraph 9)
   newadvent.org/fathers/0521.htm

 

[SyCarl]

Augustine says that everything we need to know is plainly set out in Scripture and that we can use the easier portions of Scripture to understand the more difficult.

1. In all these books those who fear God and are of a meek and pious disposition seek the will of God. And in pursuing this search the first rule to be observed is, as I said, to know these books, if not yet with the understanding, still to read them so as to commit them to memory, or at least so as not to remain wholly ignorant of them. Next, those matters that are plainly laid down in them, whether rules of life or rules of faith, are to be searched into more carefully and more diligently; and the more of these a man discovers, the more capacious does his understanding become. For among the things that are plainly laid down in Scripture are to be found all matters that concern faith and the manner of life,Cto wit, hope and love, of which I have spoken in the previous book. After this, when we have made ourselves to a certain extent familiar with the language of Scripture, we may proceed to open up and investigate the obscure passages, and in doing so draw examples from the plainer expressions to throw light upon the more obscure, and use the evidence of passages about which there is no doubt to remove all hesitation in regard to the doubtful passages. And in this matter memory counts for a great deal; but if the memory be defective, no rules can supply the want.-Augustine (On Christian Doctrine, Book 2, Chapter 9, Paragraph 14)
   newadvent.org/fathers/12022.htm

John Chrysostom tells us that all the necessary things are plain in Scripture. We don’t need oral teaching.

What do I come in for, you say, if I do not hear some one discoursing? This is the ruin and destruction of all. For what need of a person to discourse? This necessity arises from our sloth. Wherefore any necessity for a homily? All things are clear and open that are in the divine Scriptures; the necessary things are all plain. -John Chrysostom, (Homilies on Second Thessalonians, 3, v. 5)
newadvent.org/fathers/23053.htm

He also comments on 2 Timothy 3. Scripture tells us if we need to know something or not. He says that we have the Scriptures in place of Paul and if we need to learn anything we can learn it from Scripture.

“All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.” All what Scripture? all that sacred writing, he means, of which I was speaking. This is said of what he was discoursing of; about which he said, “From a child you have known the holy Scriptures.” All such, then, “is given by inspiration of God”; therefore, he means, do not doubt; and it is “profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: that the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.”

“For doctrine.” For thence we shall know, whether we ought to learn or to be ignorant of anything. And thence we may disprove what is false, thence we may be corrected and brought to a right mind, may be comforted and consoled, and if anything is deficient, we may have it added to us.

“That the man of God may be perfect.” For this is the exhortation of the Scripture given, that the man of God may be rendered perfect by it; without this therefore he cannot be perfect. You have the Scriptures, he says, in place of me. If you would learn anything, you may learn it from them. And if he thus wrote to Timothy, who was filled with the Spirit, how much more to us!

“Thoroughly furnished unto all good works”; not merely taking part in them, he means, but “thoroughly furnished.”-John Chrysostom (Homilies on Second Timothy, 9, 3:16-17)
newadvent.org/fathers/230709.htm

 

[SyCarl]

Chrysostom also says we should disregard what we are told and have recourse to the Scriptures.

Let us not therefore carry about the notions of the many, but examine into the facts. For how is it not absurd that in respect to money, indeed, we do not trust to others, but refer this to figures and calculation; but in calculating upon facts we are lightly drawn aside by the notions of others; and that too, though we possess an exact balance, and square and rule for all things, the declaration of the divine laws? Wherefore I exhort and entreat you all, disregard what this man and that man thinks about these things, and inquire from the Scriptures all these things; and having learned what are the true riches, let us pursue after them that we may obtain also the eternal good things; which may we all obtain, through the grace and love towards men of our Lord Jesus Christ, with Whom, to the Father and the Holy Spirit, be glory, might, and honor, now and ever, and world without end. Amen.-John Chrysostom (Homilies on 2 Corinthians, Homily 13)
newadvent.org/fathers/220213.htm

Cyril of Jerusalem says to prefer the content of Scripture over his oral teaching.

1. Have thou ever in your mind this seal, which for the present has been lightly touched in my discourse, by way of summary, but shall be stated, should the Lord permit, to the best of my power with the proof from the Scriptures. For concerning the divine and holy mysteries of the Faith, not even a casual statement must be delivered without the Holy Scriptures; nor must we be drawn aside by mere plausibility and artifices of speech. Even to me, who tell you these things, give not absolute credence, unless thou receive the proof of the things which I announce from the Divine Scriptures. For this salvation which we believe depends not on ingenious reasoning, but on demonstration of the Holy Scriptures.-Cyril of Jerusalem (Catechetical Lectures, Lecture 4, Paragraph 17)
   newadvent.org/fathers/310104.htm

He also says that the traditions received are a summary of what we find in the Bible. All oral teaching must be confirmed from Scripture.

1. But in learning the Faith and in professing it, acquire and keep that only, which is now delivered to you by the Church, and which has been built up strongly out of all the Scriptures. For since all cannot read the Scriptures, some being hindered as to the knowledge of them by want of learning, and others by a want of leisure, in order that the soul may not perish from ignorance, we comprise the whole doctrine of the Faith in a few lines. This summary I wish you both to commit to memory when I recite it, and to rehearse it with all diligence among yourselves, not writing it out on paper, but engraving it by the memory upon your heart, taking care while you rehearse it that no Catechumen chance to overhear the things which have been delivered to you. I wish you also to keep this as a provision through the whole course of your life, and beside this to receive no other, neither if we ourselves should change and contradict our present teaching, nor if an adverse angel, transformed into an angel of light 2 Corinthians 11:14 should wish to lead you astray. For though we or an angel from heaven preach to you any other gospel than that you have received, let him be to you anathema Galatians 1:8-9 . So for the present listen while I simply say the Creed, and commit it to memory; but at the proper season expect the confirmation out of Holy Scripture of each part of the contents. For the articles of the Faith were not composed as seemed good to men; but the most important points collected out of all the Scripture make up one complete teaching of the Faith. And just as the mustard seed in one small grain contains many branches, so also this Faith has embraced in few words all the knowledge of godliness in the Old and New Testaments. Take heed then, brethren, and hold fast the traditions which you now receive, and write them an the table of your heart.- .-Cyril of Jerusalem (Catechetical Lectures, Lecture 5, Paragraph 12)
   newadvent.org/fathers/310105.htm

 

[Metaron]

Chrysostom also says we should disregard what we are told and have recourse to the Scriptures…
Cyril of Jerusalem says to prefer the content of Scripture over his oral teaching…
He also says that the traditions received are a summary of what we find in the Bible. All oral teaching must be confirmed from Scripture.

It sounds to me that he says it must not be contrary to Scripture, not confirmed by it. Besides, one Church Father is not an infallible source of truth. You must look at what the whole of patristics say.

 

[moondweller]

How about the Catholic Liturgy,and the Catholic Catechism,for starters.

Does the Catholic liturgy or CCC directly quote something the Apostles taught outside of Scripture?

List any of the teachings by the Church that have been infallibly declared doctrine, but do not explicitly appear in scripture. One example that you probably agree with; The Holy Trinity.

But the truths that formed that doctrine were extracted from what was already revealed in Scripture. I don’t think the formal doctrine itself was orally passed down and preserved from Apostolic times since Arianism became so prevalent in the early church. Not to mention the Nestorian controversy that raged until the 5th century. If, as you say, the Trinity, as a formal doctrine, was orally passed down from the Apostles there would have been no Arianism or Nestorian controversy in the church.

So I’ll ask again, what do we know about Christ and salvation that was not revealed to us and preserved in the Scriptures?

 

[anthony022071]

Irenaeus says that the Apostles first publically proclaimed the Gospel (oral tradition), then recorded it in Scripture.

He also says that Scripture can be understood by anyone.

“Those, therefore, who desert the preaching of the Church, call in question the knowledge of the holy presbyters…It behooves us, therefore, to avoid their doctrines, and take careful heed lest we suffer any injury from them; but to flee to the Church, and be brought up in her bosom, and be nourished with the Lord’s Scriptures.” Irenaeus, Against Heresies, Preface V 20, 1 (inter A.D. 180/199).

“Through none others know we the disposition of our salvation, than those through whom the gospel came to us, first heralding it, then by the will of God delivering to us the Scriptures, which were to be the foundation and pillar of our faith…But when, the heretics are Scriptures, as if they were wrong, and unauthoritative, and were variable, and the truth could not be extracted from them by those who were ignorant of Tradition…And when we challenge them in turn what that tradition, which is from the Apostles, which is guarded by the succession of elders in the churches, they oppose themselves to Tradition, saying that they are wiser, not only than those elders, but even than the Apostles. The Tradition of the Apostles, manifested ‘on the contrary’ in the whole world, is open in every Church to all who see the truth…And, since it is a long matter in a work like this to enumerate these successions, we will confute them by pointing to the Tradition of that greatest and most ancient and universally known Church, founded and constituted at Rome by the two most glorious Apostles, Peter and Paul, a tradition which she has had and a faith which she proclaims to all men from those Apostles.” Irenaeus, Against Heresies 3,1-3 (inter A.D. 180/199).

Hippolytus says that our only source of knowledge about God is Scripture.

“It is not by drawing on the Holy Scriptures nor by guarding the tradition of some holy person that the heretics have formulated these doctrines.” Hippolytus of Rome, Refutation of All Heresies 1, Preface (c. A.D. 230).

“For if all who hear the apostolic tradition follow and keep it, no heretic will be able to introduce error, nor will any other person at all. It is in this manner that the many heresies have grown, for those who were leaders did not wish to inform themselves of the opinion of the apostles, but did what they wanted according to their own pleasure, . . .” (Hippolytus,The Apostolic Tradition)

 

[moondweller]

Chrysostom also says we should disregard what we are told and have recourse to the Scriptures.

Cyril of Jerusalem says to prefer the content of Scripture over his oral teaching.

He also says that the traditions received are a summary of what we find in the Bible. All oral teaching must be confirmed from Scripture.

Sy, thanks for all the quotes. Really appreciate it. Those men certainly seem to have had a much different attitude and far greater respect of absolute authority toward the Scriptures than that of modern Catholicism.

 

[anthony022071]

Augustine says that everything we need to know is plainly set out in Scripture and that we can use the easier portions of Scripture to understand the more difficult.

Augustine:

“To be sure, although on this matter, we cannot quote a clear example taken from the canonical Scriptures, at any rate, on this question, we are following the true thought of Scriptures when we observe what has appeared good to the universal Church which the authority of these same Scriptures recommends to you; thus, since Holy Scripture cannot be mistaken, anyone fearing to be misled by the obscurity of this question has only to consult on this same subject this very Church which the Holy Scriptures point out without ambiguity.” (Against Cresconius I:33; in Eno, 134)

“But in regard to those observances which we carefully attend and which the whole world keeps, and which derive not from Scripture but from Tradition, we are given to understand that they are recommended and ordained to be kept, either by the Apostles themselves or by plenary [ecumenical] councils, the authority of which is quite vital in the Church” (Letter to Januarius [A.D. 400]).

“And if anyone seek for Divine authority in this matter, though what is held by the whole Church, and not as instituted by Councils, but as a matter of invariable custom, is rightly held to have been handed down by apostolic authority.” (On Baptism 24 speaking of infant Baptism).

“The custom [of not rebaptizing converts] …may be supposed to have had its origin in Apostolic Tradition, just as there are many things which are observed by the whole Church, and therefore are fairly held to have been enjoined by the Apostles, which yet are not mentioned in their writings” (On Baptism, Against the Donatists 5:23[31] [A.D. 400]).

 

[anthony022071]

John Chrysostom tells us that all the necessary things are plain in Scripture. We don’t need oral teaching.

He also comments on 2 Timothy 3. Scripture tells us if we need to know something or not. He says that we have the Scriptures in place of Paul and if we need to learn anything we can learn it from Scripture.

“They teach what they themselves have learnt from their predecessors. They have received those rites which they explain from the Church’s tradition. They preach only ‘the dogmas of the Church’” John Chrysostom, Baptismal Instruction (A.D. 389).

“[Paul commands,] ‘Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you have been taught, whether by word or by our letter’ [2 Thess. 2:15]. From this it is clear that they did not hand down everything by letter, but there is much also that was not written. Like that which was written, the unwritten too is worthy of belief. So let us regard the tradition of the Church also as worthy of belief. Is it a tradition? Seek no further” (Homilies on Second Thessalonians [A.D. 402]).

 

[SolaFide]

The bible is not inconsistent with the teachings of the church. I would like an example of where the bible and church teaching don’t agree.
The bible says that many will fall away, this scripture would be true even with imperial rome.
Without sola scriptura people would not be misled by people using the bible.

I doubt you would believe it even if it was given to you. Your statement implies that already.

 

[SolaFide]

Augustine:

“To be sure, although on this matter, we cannot quote a clear example taken from the canonical Scriptures, at any rate, on this question, we are following the true thought of Scriptures when we observe what has appeared good to the universal Church which the authority of these same Scriptures recommends to you; thus, since Holy Scripture cannot be mistaken, anyone fearing to be misled by the obscurity of this question has only to consult on this same subject this very Church which the Holy Scriptures point out without ambiguity.” (Against Cresconius I:33; in Eno, 134)

“But in regard to those observances which we carefully attend and which the whole world keeps, and which derive not from Scripture but from Tradition, we are given to understand that they are recommended and ordained to be kept, either by the Apostles themselves or by plenary [ecumenical] councils, the authority of which is quite vital in the Church” (Letter to Januarius [A.D. 400]).

“And if anyone seek for Divine authority in this matter, though what is held by the whole Church, and not as instituted by Councils, but as a matter of invariable custom, is rightly held to have been handed down by apostolic authority.” (On Baptism 24 speaking of infant Baptism).

“The custom [of not rebaptizing converts] …may be supposed to have had its origin in Apostolic Tradition, just as there are many things which are observed by the whole Church, and therefore are fairly held to have been enjoined by the Apostles, which yet are not mentioned in their writings” (On Baptism, Against the Donatists 5:23[31] [A.D. 400]).

Augustine was highly influenced by Greek thought which was influence by his time by gnosticism a heresy. Augustine’s “allegorization” of much of Scripture does it great disservice.

 

[chet]

…or more accurately the apostolic traditions of the church.

I have not problem with that statement. So all you have to do is to demonstrate that an unwritten tradition originates with the apostles.

Why do you accept the teaching of your church although it is non-apostolic?

 

[chet]

…or more accurately the apostolic traditions of the church.

I have not problem with that statement. So all you have to do is to demonstrate that an unwritten tradition originates with the apostles.

This is a circular argument. The only proof would be if it was written down outside of Scripture and you could say that it is not supported in the Bible.On the other hand if it is true Apostolic teaching that wasn’t actually written down during the life times of the Apostles, but instead handed down orally for generations;When it did get written down you could say that its not from the Apostles because its not supported by the Bible.Circular argument!

 

[anthony022071]

Cyril of Jerusalem says to prefer the content of Scripture over his oral teaching.

He also says that the traditions received are a summary of what we find in the Bible. All oral teaching must be confirmed from Scripture

Cyril believed that the faith should be acquired only from the Catholic Church,and that the doctrines of the Catholic Church were infallible.

Cyril:

“But in learning the Faith and in professing it, acquire and keep that only, which is now delivered to thee by the Church, and which has been built up strongly out of all the Scriptures” (Cat V:12)

“[The Church] is called Catholic, then because it extends over the whole world, from end to end of the earth; and because it teaches universally and infallibly each and every doctrine which must come to the knowledge of men, concerning things visible and invisible, heavenly and earthly; and because it brings every race of men into subjection to godliness, governors and governed, learned and unlearned; and because it universally treats and heals every class of sins, those committed with the soul and those with the body, and it possesses within itself every conceivable form of virtue, in deeds and in words and in the spiritual gifts of every description.” [18,23]

catholic.net/RCC/Periodicals/Dossier/0304-96/anarchy.html

< The proponent of sola scriptura is faced with a dilemma when he attempts to use Cyril’s quote. Option One: If Cyril was in fact teaching sola scriptura, Protestants have a big problem. Cyril’s Catechetical Lectures are filled with his forceful teachings on the infallible teaching office of the Catholic Church (18:23), the Mass as a sacrifice (23:6-8), the concept of purgatory and the efficacy of expiatory prayers for the dead (23:10), the Real presence of Christ in the Eucharist (19:7; 21:3; 22:1-9), the theology of sacraments (1:3), the intercession of the saints (23:9), holy orders (23:2), the importance of frequent Communion (23:23), baptismal regeneration (1:1-3; 3:10-12; 21:3-4), indeed a staggering array of specifically “Catholic” doctrines. >

 

[chet]

Does the Catholic liturgy or CCC directly quote something the Apostles taught outside of Scripture? But the truths that formed that doctrine were extracted from what was already revealed in Scripture. I don’t think the formal doctrine itself was orally passed down and preserved from Apostolic times since Arianism became so prevalent in the early church. Not to mention the Nestorian controversy that raged until the 5th century. If, as you say, the Trinity, as a formal doctrine, was orally passed down from the Apostles there would have been no Arianism or Nestorian controversy in the church.

So I’ll ask again, what do we know about Christ and salvation that was not revealed to us and preserved in the Scriptures?

No, what I said is that the Trinity is one of the truths that the Holy Spirit guided the Catholic Church into. Not that it was of the Apostolic tradition. Now the Primacy of the Successors of Peter would be Apostolic Tradition since it originated from them. As pointed out by St. Ireneaus. Notice that Ireneaus says that the Apostles entrusted the episcopal office to Linus. They started the tradition of appointing a replacement for the Pope when he died.

“Having founded and built the Church, the blessed apostles entrusted the episcopal office to Linus, who is mentioned by Paul in the Epistles to Timothy; Linus was succeeded by Anacletus; after him, in the third place from the apostles, the bishopric fell to Clement, who had seen the blessed apostles and conversed with them, and still had their preaching ringing in his ears and their authentic tradition before his eyes. And he was not the only one; there were still many people alive who had been taught by the apostles. . . . In the same order and the same succession the authentic tradition received from the apostles and passed down by the Church, and the preaching of the truth, have been handed on to us. “The Church, having received this preaching and this faith, although scattered throughout the whole world, yet, as if occupying but one house, carefully preserves it. She also believes these points of doctrine just as if she had but one soul, and one and the same heart, and she proclaims them, and teaches them, and hands them down, with perfect harmony, as if she possessed only one mouth. For, although the languages of the world are dissimilar, yet the import of the tradition is one and the same. For the churches in Germany do not believe or hand down anything different, not do those in Spain, not those in Gaul, not those in the East, nor those in Egypt, nor those in Libya, nor those which have been established in the central regions [Palestine] of the world.” “When therefore, we have such proofs, it is not necessary to seek among others the truth which is easily obtained from the Church. For the apostles, like a rich man in a bank, deposited with her [the Church] most copiously everything which pertains to the truth; and everyone whosoever wishes draws from her the drink of life. Let us suppose that the apostles had left us no written records. Would we not have been able to follow the precepts of the tradition that they handed down to those to whom they entrusted the Churches? It is this precept of tradition that is followed by many barbarian nations that believe in Christ who know nothing of the use of writing, or ink.” St. Ireneaus (c. 130-200) Against Heresies

 

[chet]

Since we’re on the subject; I know this is going to be a sore spot for some of you, but St.Cyprian says that you can’t really believe your in “The Church” if your not under submission to the Successor of Peter.

“The Lord says to Peter: ‘I say to you,’ He says, ‘that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of hell will not overcome it. And to you I will give the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatever things you bind on earth shall be bound also in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth, they shall be loosed also in heaven.’ [Mathew 16:17-19] And again He says to him after His resurrection: ‘Feed my sheep.’ On him He builds the Church, and to him He gives the command to feed the sheep; and although He assigns a like power to all the Apostles, yet He founded a single chair, and He established by His own authority a source and an intrinsic reason for that unity. Indeed, the others were that also which Peter was; but a primacy is given to Peter, whereby it is made clear that there is but one Church and one chair. So too, all are shepherds, and the flock is shown to be one, fed by all the Apostles in single-minded accord. If someone does not hold fast to this unity of Peter, can he imagine that he still holds the faith? If he desert the chair of Peter upon whom the Church was built, can he still be confident that he is in the Church?” St. Cyprian, AD 251 The Unity of the Catholic Church

 

[w_stewart]

Yup.

But it is also impossible to notice what the promise to “guide into all truth does not say”

• It does not say it is immediate
• It does not say that one (either individually or corporately) can not err in discerning what Christ is saying to the church
• It does not guarantee this process is not thwarted should one (either inidividually or corporately) begins to live in disobedience to Christ

Not immediate? When the Holy Spirit descended upon the apostles in the Pentecost, the promise of sending the Holy Spirit was fulfilled right there and then.

Individually or corporately? Jesus gave the promise of infallibility to the Church by saying that even the gates of hell cannot prevail against her. The authority to bind and loose was entrusted to the prince of the apostles, Peter.

That is not what I said. I don’t know whether all the unwritten teachings at the time of Paul were all written down. However the only teachings that I know originated with the apostles were those the apostles did write down. Every other claim of apostolic origin is just idle speculation to me until good and sufficient reason is provided for me to believe that it is so.

So based on your statement, there is possibility that there are other teachings not recorded in the Bible. And yet you insist the correctness of Sola Scriptura.