Sola scripture from satan

[rien]

I agreeIt boggles my mind that you keep insisting that there was complete harmony in the church throughout its history. How do you account for most of the Bishops embracing Arianism before Nicea and after? Was there harmony in the church at Corinth? How is it that the church in the region of Galatia embraced "another Gospel? Was it because they had no bishops?

Arianism is a good point. A quote I read about this is the world awoke and the church (bishops) was Arian.

In a way like the the world awakes today and Chritianity/the church is secular.

Arius and his followers quoted verses from Scripture to prove their teaching.

The Pope convened a council (Nicaea, 325) and declard Arius’s teachings heretical - based on what Tradition had to say on the verses in question. Not Arius’s personal Spirit led interpretation of those verses.

If there had been no teaching authority to appeal to here - no council/Pope - then Arius’s erroneous interpretations would have become the dogma of Christianity.

A majority of bishops supported Arius, he compared Scripture to Scripture Yet he arrived at a heretical, in hindsight, position. From your reference to Arius I assume you agree he was heretical - and in the end what turned back this heresy? It was the teaching authority of the Church that turned this back. Despite popular acclaim at the time. As I said, I expect you hold to the definitions of the Nicean council with all heart - but on what basis? Certainly not Sola Scriptura.

 

[johnnydigit]

His is easy to explain. He’s talking about apostolic-institutional unity. They were disagreeing within the institution of the Church, but they weren’t all fractured little churches *outside of * each other, as in Protestantism.

he knows this, but he just wants to argue to keep his views afloat. this topic is done. i’d rather watch a dog strain to chase his tail.
moondweller, may you find your peace with God despite your views on His Church.

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

I don’t want to upset anyone.
But I was looking for the real inventor of sola scripture.
Correct me if I am wrong but when satan was tempting Jesus did he not use scripture we he tempted Jesus to jump from the high ledge?

Also is it not because of sola scripture that Christians have broken into so many groups,
each group claiming sola scripture
as its athority.
satan would love to build thousands of churches, a great apostasy…was it not sola scripture
that was his greatest tool?
Other then nationality and culter which seems to be what separates
Orthodox, Sola scripture seems to be the devils greatest tool.

Perhaps…but I really don’t think sola scriptura is from the devil. The rebellion present within protestantism seems to be more akin from the fallen angel in my opinion.
1 Samuel 15:23:

For rebellion is like the sin of divination, and arrogance like the evil of idolatry. Because you have rejected the word of the LORD, he has rejected you as king.

In other words, protestantism seems to be akin to a period where some in the church seemed to be moved by secular humanism to boldly proclaim that they simply knew better than the Church which conceived them.

In short, they were claiming to have the true “divinations” from God and rebelled accordingly.

As such, I don’t think sola scriptura was from the devil. Rather, sola scriptura is more of a consequence of rebellion from God, an arrogance which quite literally idolizes the Scriptures to the point of being near “bibliomancy”.

I will note there is indeed truth to be found in the Scriptures-- and many can (and do) find truth in special ways through the Sciptures as God illuminatres their faith.

But claiming that the Scriptures alone are the sole reliable means for knowing God’s will goes far beyond the occasional finding of truth in special ways through the Sciptures as God illuminatres their faith.

 

[w_stewart]

So do you also discredit Christ where it says that He began with Moses and with all the prophets explained the things concerning Himself “in all the Scriptures?” Up to that time there was no Jewish council to determine their canon of Scripture. Yet the Jews knew which Books were inspired. Was Jesus possibly in error? Did they respond, “we don’t know what you’re talking about?” In Lk. 24:45 He opened their minds to understand the Scriptures. What Scriptures? Their Scriptures didn’t list the Books either. Still, He opened their minds to understand them that they might comprehend all that was written concerning Him. Go figure.

Again, what are these “all scriptures”? How were these identified? Well, as you just rightly said, there was no list of the books “inspired”.

You said Jesus opened their mind to comprehend all that was written about Christ. But St. John said that not everything Christ did was written for if all were written, the world would not suffice to contain them.

 

[chet]

Perhaps…but I really don’t think sola scriptura is from the devil. The rebellion present within protestantism seems to be more akin from the fallen angel in my opinion.

The serpent said to the woman, "You surely will not die!

“For God knows that in the day you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”

Pride comes before the fall! And Sola Anything speaks of Personal Pride! And the effect of Original Sin; As opposed to Christ who submitted himself totally to the will of The Father. Philippians 2:5-7 Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus,
who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.

 

[chet]

Nothing could be further from the truth. Fundamentally, Sola Scriptura states that EVERY man (layman and clergy), is personally responsible to the written, inerrant, Word of God. Especially those in pastoral and teaching positions (James 3:1). It does not present an “every man for himself religion,” but rather renders every man (layman and clergy) subordinate and personally responsible to the only source we have that inerrantly defines the “faith which was once for all delivered to the saints” (Jude 3) and preserved in writing.

Sola Scriptura rightly assumes that every man, born of the Spirit, can readily understand the essentials of the faith which are plainly laid down in the Scriptures. As Augustine himself stated:

"In all these books those who fear God and are of a meek and pious disposition seek the will of God. And in pursuing this search the first rule to be observed is, as I said, to know these books, if not yet with the understanding, still to read them so as to commit them to memory, or at least so as not to remain wholly ignorant of them. Next, those matters that are plainly laid down in them, whether rules of life or rules of faith, are to be searched into more carefully and more diligently; and the more of these a man discovers, the more capacious does his understanding become. **For among the things that are plainly laid down in Scripture are to be found all matters that concern faith and the manner of life.**So to get to Sola Scriptura you must string together disjointed passages of scripture primarily James And Jude, and add some of the teaching of Augustine [which is outside of the Bible] to come up with your teaching on Sola Scriptura. Did I get it right? If Sola Scriptura Was intended by Christ, I would have expected to see a clear definition from, Jesus, or Peter, or even Paul. If I myself were a true Sola Scripturalist I would have to see it clearly stated in the Bible to believe it! But frankly I don’t see Sola Scriptura being clearly taught in the Bible so I don’t believe it! The same argument you make for disregarding the Authority of The Church, which Christ himself established to guide and protect you from error!
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[moondweller]

rien:

The Pope convened a council (Nicaea, 325) and declard Arius’s teachings heretical - based on what Tradition had to say on the verses in question. Not Arius’s personal Spirit led interpretation of those verses.

The Pope didn’t convene the council, the emperor Constantine did. The Pope never attended it.

If there had been no teaching authority to appeal to here - no council/Pope - then Arius’s erroneous interpretations would have become the dogma of Christianity.

There was no “teaching authority” to appeal to. What was appealed to was the inerrant teachings of the Scriptures. God wasn’t “voted” a Trinity by men, but men ultimately bowed to the authority of the Scriptures that reveal God to be Triune.

A majority of bishops supported Arius, he compared Scripture to Scripture Yet he arrived at a heretical, in hindsight, position.

The council voted against him and yet he remained convinced of his error. In the same way, Sola Scriptura doesn’t guarantee men will believe and abide in the inerrant truths revealed in the Scriptures. It does, however, hold up the authority of the Scriptures.

The fact remains, the only inerrant, divine source men can ultimately appeal to for doctrinal truth is the divinely inspired Scriptures. Bishops and Councils can be bias (subject to the political and ecclesiastical powers of their day), the Scriptures are not. At the end of the day (or should I say, “the age”) those in church leadership, including teachers of the Word, will be held personally accountable for how accurately they handled the Word of Truth. During this Church age God allows the tares to grow alongside the wheat.

I feel we’ve exhausted our discussion on this topic. So I’ll leave you guys to your bashing sola Scriptura. Have fun! :tiphat:

 

[justinthemartyr]

the pope didn’t have to convene the council, nor any other council. whats your point?

 

[chet]

Says what, specifically?

Where in the Bible does it say, “The word “catholic” still applies to the invisible church today.”

 

[chet]

I know nothing of Marcion’s “New Testament.” Have you seen and read it? Are you saying his “New Testament” taught that there were 2 distinct Gods? Mine doesn’t

.Marcion, a businessman in Rome, taught that there were two Gods: Yahweh, the cruel God of the Old Testament, and Abba, the kind father of the New Testament.Marcion eliminated the Old Testament as scriptures and, since he was anti-Semitic, kept from the New Testament only 10 letters of Paul and 2/3 of Luke’s gospel (he deleted references to Jesus’s Jewishness).

You overlook the fact that ALL the Books that comprise the New Testament were written before the death of the last Apostle.

 

[chet]

Sola Scriptura doesn’t guarantee men will believe and abide in the inerrant truths revealed in the Scriptures. It does, however, hold up the authority of the Scriptures.

** So according to Sola Scripturalists when Jesus went back up to Heaven he left a Book in charge of his Church. But thats not what the Bible tells us **

Matthew 28:18-20 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations,** baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you.** And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

And this is what Jesus’ Church, ‘The Catholic Church’ has been doing for almost 2000 years!

 

[justinthemartyr]

amen chet,

Jesus did commission his first bishops to go two by two and evangelize the world and baptize and the people were to obey everything He(Jesus) had commanded His bishops to do and teach.

The authoritative church.

 

[Deconi]

amen chet,

Jesus did commission his first bishops to go two by two and evangelize the world and baptize and the people were to obey everything He(Jesus) had commanded His bishops to do and teach.

The authoritative church.

**…and all before ‘The Book’ was published! **

But it all means nothing, anyway. Even if Jesus Himself says so! No church starts until The Bible has been revealed by The Holy Spirit to Catholics, although they don’t understand any of Scriptures!!

Thankfully, Sola Scriptura came along 1600 years after the fact, to teach us all HOW to correctly interpret Scriptures.

 

[mangy_dog]

**…and all before ‘The Book’ was published! **

But it all means nothing, anyway. Even if Jesus Himself says so! No church starts until The Bible has been revealed by The Holy Spirit to Catholics, although they don’t understand any of Scriptures!!

Thankfully, Sola Scriptura came along 1600 years after the fact, to teach us all HOW to correctly interpret Scriptures.

You are mistaken and sadly so. It amazes me that you would make comments like the ones above.
Sola Scriptura is wrong. It’s incomplete.
Jesus laid everthing out so that when He ascended into heaven to His place at the right hand of the Father, they would send the Holy Spirit.
Bible or no Bible, the church (Catholic) already existed after His ascension into heaven, leaving Peter as its first Pope. The church was endowed with the power of the Holy Spirit in all her present and future endeavors on Pentecost.
There is nothing about Sola Scriptura to be thankful for. It is a protestant error.

 

[Jlcastagna]

Mangy Dog,
Deconi was just being sarcastic, something I do on the forums as an alternative to being uncharitable at times.

 

[mangy_dog]

Mangy Dog,
Deconi was just being sarcastic, something I do on the forums as an alternative to being uncharitable at times.

Oh!..my apologies. Mea maxima culpa. I am but a mangy dog.

 

[Deconi]

Oh!..my apologies. Mea maxima culpa. I am but a mangy dog.

Yeah, I know it’s the lowest form of wit, but sometimes it is aptly applicable to the lower form of Scriptural interpretation.

 

[MDK]

Well, Jesus did answer Satan back with Scripture. He didn’t say, “tradition says,” but “it is written.”

Also, after His resurrection Jesus explained all the things concerning Himself in the Scriptures beginning with Moses and all the prophets (Lk. 24:27). And then he opened their minds to understand the Scriptures (verse 45).

Why do Catholics think relying on God’s written Word is Satanic?

You’ve identified the problem with Sola Scriptura, in that people use their own agenda or ignorance to distort the true meaning. This distortion is exactly what you’ve done here.

It’s absurd to imply “Catholics think relying on God’s written Word is Satanic.”

Catholics believe the incorrect interpretation of God’s written word is wrong, ignorant, evil. You have demonstrated this same kind of evil by distorting the truth and attempting to slander Jesus’ Church.

What you’ve done is to follow Satan’s example, and distort teaching of Christ’s Church, much like Satan distorted the written word in trying to tempt Christ.

Christ gave the correct interpretation of Scritpures, which is exactly what He does through the Catholic Church. Whether you believe it or not, this is true. Whether you like it or not, this is true.

Sola Scriptura is a tool of Satan, who has to be pleased by those who like him, distort God’s word.

Unlike you and Satan, the Catholic Church has protected God’s Word as it was intended. Christ has seen to this just as He told His Apostles He would.

 

[mackbrislawn]

I don’t want to upset anyone.
But I was looking for the real inventor of sola scripture.
Correct me if I am wrong but when satan was tempting Jesus did he not use scripture we he tempted Jesus to jump from the high ledge?

Also is it not because of sola scripture that Christians have broken into so many groups,
each group claiming sola scripture
as its athority.
satan would love to build thousands of churches, a great apostasy…was it not sola scripture
that was his greatest tool?
Other then nationality and culter which seems to be what separates
Orthodox, Sola scripture seems to be the devils greatest tool.

Quite true.

“By their fruits you will know them.”

Okay, what are the fruits of sola scriptura? A myriad of different interpretations and groups, many denouncing the other.

 

[johnnydigit]

sorry i just can’t help myself. bringing up St. Augustine just entices me to beat the dead horse!

Nothing could be further from the truth. Fundamentally, Sola Scriptura states that EVERY man (layman and clergy), is personally responsible to the written, inerrant, Word of God. Especially those in pastoral and teaching positions (James 3:1). It does not present an “every man for himself religion,” but rather renders every man (layman and clergy) subordinate and personally responsible to the only source we have that inerrantly defines the “faith which was once for all delivered to the saints” (Jude 3) and preserved in writing.

Sola Scriptura rightly assumes that every man, born of the Spirit, can readily understand the essentials of the faith which are plainly laid down in the Scriptures. As Augustine himself stated:"In all these books those who fear God and are of a meek and pious disposition seek the will of God. And in pursuing this search the first rule to be observed is, as I said, to know these books, if not yet with the understanding, still to read them so as to commit them to memory, or at least so as not to remain wholly ignorant of them. Next, those matters that are plainly laid down in them, whether rules of life or rules of faith, are to be searched into more carefully and more diligently; and the more of these a man discovers, the more capacious does his understanding become. For among the things that are plainly laid down in Scripture are to be found all matters that concern faith and the manner of life, to wit, hope and love, of which I have spoken in the previous book. After this, when we have made ourselves to a certain extent familiar with the language of Scripture, we may proceed to open up and investigate the obscure passages, and in doing so draw examples from the plainer expressions to throw light upon the more obscure, and use the evidence of passages about which there is no doubt to remove all hesitation in regard to the doubtful passages. And in this matter memory counts for a great deal; but if the memory be defective, no rules can supply the want. -Augustine (On Christian Doctrine, Book 2, Chapter 9, Paragraph 14)Sola Scriptura states that there is no higher authority for the Body of Christ (the church) in this age than the written Word of God. If men (layman or clergy) pervert them (the Scriptures), then they will receive their just judgment. If any man (layman or clergy) upholds their integrity in truth, he will receive his reward at the judgment seat of Christ. Sola Scriptura equips the layman to test the teachings of the clergy, and equips the clergy to deliver to the layman the “faith which was once for all delivered to the saints.” Sola Scriptura works to prevent totally apostasy in the Church Christ Himself is building.

St. Augustine was one of the biggest defenders of the Catholic Church. For you to misinterpret his words is extremely laughable, albeit insulting to everything he stood for. if he could defend himself today, he would smash your theory into complete oblivion.

he had a passion for seeking Truth and teaching it, and there was probably nothing he despised more than those who perverted it and disregarded the unique role of the Catholic Church. he was like you, searching and searching, aimlessly trying to prove and disprove, roaming from church to church, teacher to teacher, but the inevitable fullness of truth was found in the one that started it all and exists today.

if you’re interested, read his Confessions. (the juicy stuff begins around Book 8). i pray you remain open to His will. it brings our souls to sorrow to think of the precious treasure that is lost when you don’t see the real and true presence of your Savior in the Eucharist, in the Sacraments, in His Apostolic authority he left with us for all time. they are the most beautiful gifts on Earth this side of heaven, and can bring you to unimaginable spiritual heights of Christianity. or you can remain the same…