Sola Scripture (yes, again)

[Valke2]

Great commentary :tiphat:

I do a weekly Bible study with a non-denominational friend. We try to stay focused on our shared beliefs rather than focusing on our differences…yet, issues regarding Catholicism vs Non-Denominational beliefs keep creeping in.

Sometimes it clearly makes him nervous. He is a fallen away member of the Church of Christ. His internal struggles are clearly there.

If you ain’t struggling, what’s the point of living a religious life?

 

[MarcoPolo]

Protestants attempt to prove from the Bible the doctrine that every Christian ought to find his faith by searching the Scriptures. They maintain that Christ said to everyone, “Search the Scriptures” (John 5:39)

I think the Sola Scripturists say that Jesus said, “Search ONLY the Scriptures.”

 

[Tomster]

I think the Sola Scripturists say that Jesus said, “Search ONLY the Scriptures.”

And I think you are right.

 

[justasking4]

Originally Posted by MarcoPolo
I think the Sola Scripturists say that Jesus said, “Search ONLY the Scriptures.”

Tomster
And I think you are right.

Do the Scriptures ever exhort us to search traditions also?

 

[guanophore]

Do the Scriptures ever exhort us to search traditions also?

Yes, of course! When Paul exhorts Timothy to “show thyself approved”, none of the NT had yet been written. Paul was trained in both Tradition and Scripture, and that is also how he trained Timothy.

1 Cor 11:2 - hold fast to traditions I handed on to you
2 Thess 2:15 - hold fast to traditions, whether oral or by letter
Jn 21:25 - not everything Jesus said recorded in Scripture
Mk 13:31 - heaven & earth shall pass away, but my word won’t
Acts 20;35 - Paul records a saying of Jesus not found in gospels
2Tim 1:13 - follow my sound words; guard the truth
2Tim2:2 - what you heard entrust to faithful men

Study is not limited to the Holy Writings but to all of the Divine Revelation.

 

[Tomster]

Yes, of course! When Paul exhorts Timothy to “show thyself approved”, none of the NT had yet been written. Paul was trained in both Tradition and Scripture, and that is also how he trained Timothy.

1 Cor 11:2 - hold fast to traditions I handed on to you
2 Thess 2:15 - hold fast to traditions, whether oral or by letter
Jn 21:25 - not everything Jesus said recorded in Scripture
Mk 13:31 - heaven & earth shall pass away, but my word won’t
Acts 20;35 - Paul records a saying of Jesus not found in gospels
2Tim 1:13 - follow my sound words; guard the truth
2Tim2:2 - what you heard entrust to faithful men

Study is not limited to the Holy Writings but to all of the Divine Revelation.

Exactly !

 

[Brother_John]

Exactly !

I wondered how long that would take…that was easier than tee-ball

 

[MarcoPolo]

Yes, of course! When Paul exhorts Timothy to “show thyself approved”, none of the NT had yet been written. Paul was trained in both Tradition and Scripture, and that is also how he trained Timothy.

1 Cor 11:2 - hold fast to traditions I handed on to you
2 Thess 2:15 - hold fast to traditions, whether oral or by letter
Jn 21:25 - not everything Jesus said recorded in Scripture
Mk 13:31 - heaven & earth shall pass away, but my word won’t
Acts 20;35 - Paul records a saying of Jesus not found in gospels
2Tim 1:13 - follow my sound words; guard the truth
2Tim2:2 - what you heard entrust to faithful men

Study is not limited to the Holy Writings but to all of the Divine Revelation.

And don’t forget Jude also citing non-Scripture (i.e. The Assumption of Moses and the Book of Enoch.)

 

[Valke2]

Just popping in to say that my interest in this topic has been temporarily sated. Which is my way of saying that I can’t keep up with the conversation. Thanks for the replies.

 

[justasking4]

Are you saying here that you have infallible interpreted 100% of the bible and are volunteering to lend a hand?

James

No. I’m addressing the claim of the catholic church to be the only one that has the authority to interpret Scripture. It alone has the power to do so.

 

[justasking4]

guanophore;3314762]
Originally Posted by justasking4
Do the Scriptures ever exhort us to search traditions also?

guanophore
Yes, of course! When Paul exhorts Timothy to “show thyself approved”, none of the NT had yet been written. Paul was trained in both Tradition and Scripture, and that is also how he trained Timothy.

1 Cor 11:2 - hold fast to traditions I handed on to you
2 Thess 2:15 - hold fast to traditions, whether oral or by letter
Jn 21:25 - not everything Jesus said recorded in Scripture
Mk 13:31 - heaven & earth shall pass away, but my word won’t
Acts 20;35 - Paul records a saying of Jesus not found in gospels
2Tim 1:13 - follow my sound words; guard the truth
2Tim2:2 - what you heard entrust to faithful men

What “traditions” is Paul referring to in these passages? Can you give me a couple of examples?

Study is not limited to the Holy Writings but to all of the Divine Revelation.

What is the Divine Revelation?

 

[justasking4]

CentralFLJames;3312218]
Originally Posted by justasking4
I can take this statement of yours and apply it to protestants. You as a catholic cannot understand protestant doctrines. I suspect i could find a number of protestant scholars and pastors that do indeed understand Jewish insights.

CentralFLJames
We have to admit you got us here JA4. But now ask yourself “can Protestants themselves understand and explain Protestant doctrines”? If so, then how do you explain the 30,000 or so different Protestant sects and why they can’t merge into one unified common understanding?

Lets see if we can make some progress on this. Do you think that there are 30,000 different interpretations of Who Jesus was and what He accomplished in Protestant churches?

Do you think that there are 30,000 ways to understand baptism? I personally can think of 3. Should infants be baptized, should people be sprinkled or immersed? I can’t think of many other understandings beyond these. Can you?

From an outsider looking in it sure looks like the only thing any protestant could understand as common about Protestant doctrines is that they all hold as common an abhorrence for unity, authority, “protest” and anything that is anti-Catholic?

I don’t find in my protestant circle any anti catholic sentiments. I also get the impression that most protestants that i know would say protestants are unified on the essential doctrines and practices.

Do you have a different understanding you’d care to share?

On what?

James

 

[guanophore]

Lets see if we can make some progress on this. Do you think that there are 30,000 different interpretations of Who Jesus was and what He accomplished in Protestant churches?

Do you think that there are 30,000 ways to understand baptism? I personally can think of 3. Should infants be baptized, should people be sprinkled or immersed? I can’t think of many other understandings beyond these. Can you?

Yes! do a search on tabcom. You will find several threads where he asserts that baptism has nothing to do with water!

I don’t find in my protestant circle any anti catholic sentiments.

This is quite shocking. How did you come by such a large dose of it? I just assumed that you are immersed in it all the time!

I also get the impression that most protestants that i know would say protestants are unified on the essential doctrines and practices.

I agree with this, however, there is no agreement or unity on what is “essential”.

 

[guanophore]

What “traditions” is Paul referring to in these passages? Can you give me a couple of examples?

The Mass, for example, the daily prayers, the way of life of a Christian living in Pagan society. Primarily, how to interpret the Holy Writings correctly. Paul knew the OT very well, and was able to be vigorously convincing from it that Jesus is the Christ. I wish I had some of his sermons on my mp3 player! Especially the one that lasted all night, and killed a guy!

What is the Divine Revelation?

Somehow I think you are just baiting me, ja4, since I know you don’t believe any such thing exists outside of scripture. However, since I know there are a lot of lurkers reading this thread, I will answer this:

Catechism of the Catholic Church

53 The divine plan of Revelation is realized simultaneously “by deeds and words which are intrinsically bound up with each other” and shed light on each another. It involves a specific divine pedagogy: God communicates himself to man gradually. He prepares him to welcome by stages the supernatural Revelation that is to culminate in the person and mission of the incarnate Word, Jesus Christ.

St. Irenaeus of Lyons repeatedly speaks of this divine pedagogy using the image of God and man becoming accustomed to one another: The Word of God dwelt in man and became the Son of man in order to accustom man to perceive God and to accustom God to dwell in man, according to the Father’s pleasure.

Divine Revelation is God’s disclosure of Himself to mankind.

 

[guanophore]

No. I’m addressing the claim of the catholic church to be the only one that has the authority to interpret Scripture. It alone has the power to do so.

Well, clearly others take it upon themselves to do so, and do it with abandon. The problem is that the Holy Writings were not meant to be separated from the community of faith that produced them. When this happens, they are read out of context, and easily misinterpreted, and misunderstood.

 

[justasking4]

Originally Posted by justasking4
No. I’m addressing the claim of the catholic church to be the only one that has the authority to interpret Scripture. It alone has the power to do so.

guanophore
Well, clearly others take it upon themselves to do so, and do it with abandon. The problem is that the Holy Writings were not meant to be separated from the community of faith that produced them. When this happens, they are read out of context, and easily misinterpreted, and misunderstood.

Is it possible for the community of faith to misinterpret the Scriptures?

 

[Rbt_Southwell]

Is it possible for the community of faith to misinterpret the Scriptures?

Sure.

Happens all the time hereabouts with nonC and nonO posters.

It’s the “fruit” of that recent ‘doctrine’ Sola Scriptura. And everything asserted is SOOOOO infallibly believed.

Of course, they don’t see it that way, and why should they? They mistake their zeal for divine inspiration. Some of them even start their own “church” and set themselves up as God’s “Prophet.”

Robert

 

[Brother_John]

Sure.

Happens all the time hereabouts with nonC and nonO posters.

It’s the “fruit” of that recent ‘doctrine’ Sola Scriptura. And everything asserted is SOOOOO infallibly believed.

Of course, they don’t see it that way, and why should they? They mistake their zeal for divine inspiration. Some of them even start their own “church” and set themselves up as God’s “Prophet.”

Robert

Are you referring to SolA Scriptura, or SolO Scriptura ?

 

[Namesake]

They are bothered that they can not shake our faith.

I for one am not trying to shake your faith.

The perseverance in coming each day to a Catholic Forum not to learn but to try to get us to change implies that they are not confident in their own faith or they would simply state that we are wrong and leave. Eventually the Holy Spirit will convert a few here to Catholicism since the truth eventually will push aside the largely false teaching of Protestantism that they either taught themselves or which was forced on them at an impressionable age by some anti-Catholic teacher.

I was taught my faith by true believers, certainly not by anti-Catholics. Your saying that Protestantism is false doesn’t in any way make it so. Through many years of study in many disciplines I have been afforded the ability to discern logic from illogic. I can perceive something of truth. Your displays of Catholic logic want, a great deal. But more power to you. It’s good that you believe what you believe. It doesn’t satisfy rational examination.

That’s no great matter because religion does not require rationality. It requires faith, and only faith.

 

[justasking4]

Quote:
Originally Posted by justasking4
Is it possible for the community of faith to misinterpret the Scriptures?

Rbt Southwell
Sure.

Happens all the time hereabouts with nonC and nonO posters.

It’s the “fruit” of that recent ‘doctrine’ Sola Scriptura. And everything asserted is SOOOOO infallibly believed.

Of course, they don’t see it that way, and why should they? They mistake their zeal for divine inspiration. Some of them even start their own “church” and set themselves up as God’s “Prophet.”

Robert

Can you give me a couple of examples of what you mean?