Soldiers and Justified Killing

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can someone please answer this post?

“It is interesting that many people seem to be more interested in highlighting the exceptions to the commandment rather than the commandment itself. Also I would like to see some discussion of the case of a soldier involved in an unjust war. While it is true that some military actions that result in killing are justified, many (or most) of these actions are not. And a soldier is not normally given the option of deciding which actions he considers covered under the just war theory. Upon entering the service he swears an oath of obedience to his commanders that can only be broken by a grossly illegal command from those commanders. There are many actions that are not grossly illegal under civil law, and yet are clearly not in accord with the just war theory.** How does a soldier who passionately wants to defend his country ensure that his cooperation will not be misused by those above him?**”

Quoted from Leafbyniggle.

-Thanks
 
can someone please answer this post?

“It is interesting that many people seem to be more interested in highlighting the exceptions to the commandment rather than the commandment itself. Also I would like to see some discussion of the case of a soldier involved in an unjust war. While it is true that some military actions that result in killing are justified, many (or most) of these actions are not. And a soldier is not normally given the option of deciding which actions he considers covered under the just war theory. Upon entering the service he swears an oath of obedience to his commanders that can only be broken by a grossly illegal command from those commanders. There are many actions that are not grossly illegal under civil law, and yet are clearly not in accord with the just war theory.** How does a soldier who passionately wants to defend his country ensure that his cooperation will not be misused by those above him?**”

Quoted from Leafbyniggle.

-Thanks
There are a number of accounts by German soldiers in WWII concerning their actions in it, what they believed about the nature of the German state, the Nazi party and duty. I don’t know that there is a template that fits all. I would question, too, just how an individual soldier would, in most circumstances, even be able to judge whether carrying out a particular command is, or is not, consistent with Just War doctrine, because it is in the very nature of ordinary soldiering that the line soldier has only a vague idea what is going on other than in his own vicinity or why, exactly, any particular thing is happening.

Sure, if he is ordered to massacre unarmed civilians, he would know that to be wrong, but he is also not obliged by law to follow the command. But if he is ordered to fire an RPG into a building about which he knows little or nothing, then does he have sufficient information to make a judgment about it? Not likely.

When it comes to soldiering, it’s difficult for me to not remember Jesus’ relationships with Roman soldiers in the New Testament. Never did he tell one of them not to fight in Rome’s often savage and unjust wars. Never did he tell one of them not to be a soldier at all. He did exhort them to be content with their pay, not to extort or to make false accusations. In other words, they were encouraged to act justly within that sphere which they, themselves, could control.
 
Outside of killing, a soldier is also defending his own life. If firing where innocents might be, in order to defend his own life ,as well as his unit, that´s justifiable. If a twelve year old is loaded with bombs and is about to kill you as well as your comrade, killing him is justifiable. Ask the Holy Spirit to guide you and you will not fail. There are many Saints in Heaven not recognized by the Church yet. I believe many of them are soldiers and sailors. Just reflecting on the ones that died in Normandy, Iwo Jima and Ke San makes me pray. God bless all of them. God bless:thumbsup:👍👍
 
can someone please answer this post?

“It is interesting that many people seem to be more interested in highlighting the exceptions to the commandment rather than the commandment itself. Also I would like to see some discussion of the case of a soldier involved in an unjust war. While it is true that some military actions that result in killing are justified, many (or most) of these actions are not. And a soldier is not normally given the option of deciding which actions he considers covered under the just war theory. Upon entering the service he swears an oath of obedience to his commanders that can only be broken by a grossly illegal command from those commanders. There are many actions that are not grossly illegal under civil law, and yet are clearly not in accord with the just war theory.** How does a soldier who passionately wants to defend his country ensure that his cooperation will not be misused by those above him?**”

Quoted from Leafbyniggle.

-Thanks
There are two parts to the Just War Theory: justice in entering a war, and justice in waging a war. (These two categories are known as jus ad bellum, and jus in bello, respectively.) The first has to do with a country’s decision to enter a war; the second is concerned with the conduct of the war, particularly by individual soldiers.

If a soldier follows the customary rules of war, he is not held accountable by the Convention for the deaths he causes nor the damage he inflicts as a result of his action. This is called the Combatant’s Privilege.

The CCC says the evaluation of the conditions for moral legitimacy [for a country entering war] belongs to the prudential judgment of those who have responsibility for the common good. Personally, I feel that there is some additional moral question about sending soldiers to face an enemy and not letting them defend themselves by placing unreasonable “rules of engagement” restrictions on them for political reasons.
 
There are two parts to the Just War Theory: justice in entering a war, and justice in waging a war. (These two categories are known as jus ad bellum, and jus in bello, respectively.) The first has to do with a country’s decision to enter a war; the second is concerned with the conduct of the war, particularly by individual soldiers.

If a soldier follows the customary rules of war, he is not held accountable by the Convention for the deaths he causes nor the damage he inflicts as a result of his action. This is called the Combatant’s Privilege.

The CCC says the evaluation of the conditions for moral legitimacy [for a country entering war] belongs to the prudential judgment of those who have responsibility for the common good. Personally, I feel that there is some additional moral question about sending soldiers to face an enemy and not letting them defend themselves by placing unreasonable “rules of engagement” restrictions on them for political reasons.
I fought for the US in Iraq and in Afghanistan. I can’t share much insight into the CCC, but I might be able to clarify some of the principles from a combatant’s point of view. There are three primary sets of documents which govern the legality and the propriety of acts of war for US military personnel. The UCMJ (Uniform Code of Military Justice), The Geneva Conventions of 1949 and their subsequent amendments, and the ROE (Rules of Engagement).

The UCMJ is the legal code for the US military, which governs conduct ranging from behavior appropriate to the uniform, to personal moral conduct which the military feels should fall under its purview, to professional conduct, including conduct during war and combat.
ROE are specific for any war or engagement, and are devised and promulgated by the military leadership in consultation with the department of defense and the president or his representatives. ROE are learned intimately and completely by each combatant before engaging the enemy.

One thing to bear in mind, with respect to any of these sets of rules, is that the state of mind of the combatant is considered foremost when the rule of law or principles of conduct are applied. The question is not posed as “what was the best act in retrospect?”, The question is: “what was the correct act under the circumstances and given the state of mind of the person acting.”

I will give a couple of examples of how the civilian view of these governing rules and principles might be different for militants than for civilians.

In this video: youtube.com/watch?v=3KnH2t3Gjio&NR=1 you can see a man lying on the ground playing dead. You can also see my back at one point 😛 The Marine in the clip who had assumed that he was dead, notices him start to move. Calls out the warning, “He is playing dead,” and shoots him. To the noncombatant this may appear to the unjustified killing of an innocent man. However, “playing dead” is prohibited under the Geneva Conventions. The Marine’s actions are justified in my opinion, as the man posed a very clear threat. I leave it to others to decide how much risk a combatant should take in such a situation.

Here is a second example from OIF1. A unit of about 1,000 men had many of their number pinned down under fire. An RCT (Regimental Combat Team) comprising about 6,000 men with armor and artillery were called up for reinforcement. My unit, a 550 man reconnaissance unit was called up for assistance in extraction of personnel pinned down under fire. My unit arrived prior to the slower moving RCT, and immediately came under mortar attack. Scouts were sent forward to eliminate the threat, but in the meantime we had to fall back or endure the attack. Mortars are popular because they are very portable, so can be fired from civilian roof tops, etc… and they have long range… more than a mile. The disadvantage is that the shooter sometimes cannot see his target. In that case, the shooter will be teamed with a spotter, who has eyes on the target. The spotter communicates back to the shooter to change his targeting in a feedback loop as he observes the target. (cont’d in next msg)
 
(part 2 from previous msg)
As we had mortar shells landing and drawing closer, we also had identified the spotter. He was watching us, and popping in and out of a doorway, talking on a phone. As each salvo was coming in, he would be watching us from his doorway and talking on the phone. The fire was getting more accurate. We were not allowed to engage the spotter under our ROE which prohibited targeting unarmed civilians. The ROE were specific that all targets must have a weapon in their possession.

So, we requested hot authorization to change the ROE for this circumstance, and waited for a reply. Our unit commander, who was a full colonel, did not have sufficient authority to change the ROE.

When the authorization came down, there was a large volley of fire, which not only killed the spotter, but also did significant damage to the poorly built building he was in. In the future, when we had a spotter to deal with, which was a regular occurrence, we would call a sharp shooter forward to handle it. Sometimes it was difficult to determine precisely if someone was a spotter or not. In one case, we were not sure, but a judgment was made based on available information, and he was ordered shot. The mortar fire stopped.

I leave it to others to decide where in the CCC these moral questions lie. Was it immoral to have destroyed a building under those circumstances? Was it immoral to kill a person for whom the weight of the evidence showed him to be a spotter? He might not have been. In this case he was.

Finally, I would like to point out that the US military engages enemies as ordered by the civilian government. It does not pick and choose which wars to fight. The duty of a military person is to follow these orders to the best of his ability. The bias is that the orders are moral and correct. There is a moral obligation which comes with taking life or destroying property, etc…

The personal responsibility is spelled out in the UCMJ, GC, and ROE.You are not required to follow an illegal order. However, you must also be willing to accept the consequences. I disobeyed a direct order from an officer once in combat. My Gunny backed me up, and the officer backed down later. I could have suffered some serious consequences, but I made the choice as it was a life and death issue. If a US military person honestly objects on moral grounds to deploying for a particular engagement, he may conscientiously object, and his objection will be considered. If his objection is declined, then he may either choose to deploy, or he may choose to desert or disobey an order. The penalty can range from loss of rank and pay, to imprisionment, dishonorable discharge, or death. Desertion at time of war is a capital crime. Cowardice is a capital crime, under the UCMJ. Desertion is defined as being away without the intention of returning to duty. Intent is assumed after 30 days of absence, if not provable by other means. So, the decision not to fight, is a very serious one.
Perhaps an expert on the Catholic position would like to take up some of these issues for clarification of the Church’s position.
 
I fought for the US in Iraq and in Afghanistan. I can’t share much insight into the CCC, but I might be able to clarify some of the principles from a combatant’s point of view. There are three primary sets of documents which govern the legality and the propriety of acts of war for US military personnel. The UCMJ (Uniform Code of Military Justice), The Geneva Conventions of 1949 and their subsequent amendments, and the ROE (Rules of Engagement).

The UCMJ is the legal code for the US military, which governs conduct ranging from behavior appropriate to the uniform, to personal moral conduct which the military feels should fall under its purview, to professional conduct, including conduct during war and combat.

ROE are specific for any war or engagement, and are devised and promulgated by the military leadership in consultation with the department of defense and the president or his representatives. ROE are learned intimately and completely by each combatant before engaging the enemy.

One thing to bear in mind, with respect to any of these sets of rules, is that the state of mind of the combatant is considered foremost when the rule of law or principles of conduct are applied. The question is not posed as “what was the best act in retrospect?”, The question is: “what was the correct act under the circumstances and given the state of mind of the person acting.”

I will give a couple of examples of how the civilian view of these governing rules and principles might be different for militants than for civilians.
In this video: youtube.com/watch?v=3KnH2t3Gjio&NR=1 you can see a man lying on the ground playing dead. You can also see my back at one point 😛 The Marine in the clip who had assumed that he was dead, notices him start to move. Calls out the warning, “He is playing dead,” and shoots him. To the noncombatant this may appear to the unjustified killing of an innocent man. However, “playing dead” is prohibited under the Geneva Conventions. The Marine’s actions are justified in my opinion, as the man posed a very clear threat. I leave it to others to decide how much risk a combatant should take in such a situation.

Here is a second example from OIF1. A unit of about 1,000 men had many of their number pinned down under fire. An RCT (Regimental Combat Team) comprising about 6,000 men with armor and artillery were called up for reinforcement. My unit, a 550 man reconnaissance unit was called up for assistance in extraction of personnel pinned down under fire. My unit arrived prior to the slower moving RCT, and immediately came under mortar attack. Scouts were sent forward to eliminate the threat, but in the meantime we had to fall back or endure the attack. Mortars are popular because they are very portable, so can be fired from civilian roof tops, etc… and they have long range… more than a mile. The disadvantage is that the shooter sometimes cannot see his target. In that case, the shooter will be teamed with a spotter, who has eyes on the target. The spotter communicates back to the shooter to change his targeting in a feedback loop as he observes the target.

As we had mortar shells landing and drawing closer, we also had identified the spotter. He was watching us, and popping in and out of a doorway, talking on a phone. As each salvo was coming in, he would be watching us from his doorway and talking on the phone. The fire was getting more accurate. We were not allowed to engage the spotter under our ROE which prohibited targeting unarmed civilians. The ROE were specific that all targets must have a weapon in their possession. So, we requested hot authorization to change the ROE for this circumstance, and waited for a reply. Our unit commander, who was a full colonel, did not have sufficient authority to change the ROE.

When the authorization came down, there was a large volley of fire, which not only killed the spotter, but also did significant damage to the poorly built building he was in. In the future, when we had a spotter to deal with, which was a regular occurrence, we would call a sharp shooter forward to handle it. Sometimes it was difficult to determine precisely if someone was a spotter or not. In one case, we were not sure, but a judgment was made based on available information, and he was ordered shot. The mortar fire stopped.

I leave it to others to decide where in the CCC these moral questions lie. Was it immoral to have destroyed a building under those circumstances? Was it immoral to kill a person for whom the weight of the evidence showed him to be a spotter? He might not have been. In this case he was.

Finally, I would like to point out that the US military engages enemies as ordered by the civilian government. It does not pick and choose which wars to fight. The duty of a military person is to follow these orders to the best of his ability. The bias is that the orders are moral and correct. There is a moral obligation which comes with taking life or destroying property, etc… The personal responsibility is spelled out in the UCMJ, GC, and ROE. If a US military person honestly objects on moral grounds to deploying for a particular engagement, he may conscientiously object, and his objection will be considered. If his objection is declined, then he may either choose to deploy, or he may choose to desert or disobey an order. The penalty can range from loss of rank and pay, to imprisonment, dishonorable discharge, or death. Desertion at time of war is a capital crime. Cowardice is a capital crime, under the UCMJ. Desertion is defined as being away without the intention of returning to duty. Intent is assumed after 30 days of absence, if not provable by other means. So, the decision not to fight, is a very serious one.

Perhaps an expert on the Catholic position would like to take up some of these issues
 
.** How does a soldier who passionately wants to defend his country ensure that his cooperation will not be misused by those above him?**"

Quoted from Leafbyniggle.

-Thanks
The answer to your direct question, is that he may conscientiously object. If his objection is declined, then he may face imprisonment or the death penalty.
 
… killing the spotter…
Thanks for your service, Rock Happy, and thanks for sharing your knowledge with us 🙂

When I was looking into the Geneva Conventions a few years ago, I was astonished to find that they included an rule that combatants not attached to a regular military had tonwear some sort of distinguishing clothing to mark them off. My first reaction was that this seemed to make their task more dangerous–because i was thinking about the French Resistance. But then I realized that this rule is not for the protection of the combatants but for the protection of civilians.

A lot of members of the various Resistance movements spent a lot of their time in the mountains or at least far away from towns and places with a lot of civilians. This is another way to protect civilians.

In the case of those we are fighting now, they do not wear identifying clothing, and they hang out among civilians. As mentiined in another thread, when they do this sort of thing, it is not we who are endangering the civilians around them, but the enemy comabatants who refuse to identify themselves and take other measures to protect their own civilians.

When spotting seems to be happening, and someone is behaving as a spotter would, there is only so much you can do to assure that that person really is a spotter. They use oir concern for their civilans as protection for themselves (the cowards).

And if you couldn’t use a sniper to shoot the spotter and so the building collapsed… would US soldiers not have cleared the civilians out of the building before using it to shoot from?
 
I fought for the US in Iraq and in Afghanistan. I can’t share much insight into the CCC, but I might be able to clarify some of the principles from a combatant’s point of view. …
Thank you for your valuable (name removed by moderator)ut.

I was in the Air Force during Vietnam, although I never saw combat. Nevertheless, we were required to be familiar with the Geneva Convention. In my debates with others [mostly non-vets] over the Iraq War, I realized that even my ancient and limited knowledge of the Convention far out-stripped my opponents’. To illustrate, I posed the following question to them, but never got an answer, not even a wrong answer:

Consider the following scenario:

After the Gulf War cease-fire agreement in 1991 and before Saddam was ousted, he had given the order to his gun batteries to shoot down any coalition aircraft over Iraq. He also ordered Iraqi civilians to kill any coalition pilots who bailed out.

A Coalition Force pilot is flying his military aircraft over Iraq to enforce the UN no-fly zones. One of Saddam’s gun batteries shoots at and damages the plane, and the pilot bails out. When the pilot reaches the ground, a group of farmers attack him with pitchforks and other farming tools. He takes out his pistol and shoots one of the farmers, killing him.

Question: What war crime, if any, was/were committed?

In your example of the enemy playing dead, what he is doing is against the Convention. Wounded are considered non-combatants, and he was trying to hide behind that protected class, a violation of one of the Laws of Armed Conflict, the same as if he were impersonating a civilian. As Bialke [1] observes, treatment of those has historically been severe: no quarter. Terrorists, not being any part of a legitimate chain of command, are almost all without exception guilty of war crimes; and there is nothing “new” about this type of warfare. Freebooting goes back centuries. Just to show how old and un-original these tactics are, Article 82 of the Lieber Code, promulgated as General Orders No. 100 by President Lincoln, 24 April 1863, states,
“Men, or squads of men, who commit hostilities, whether by fighting, or inroads for destruction or plunder, or by raids of any kind, without commission, without being part and portion of the organized hostile army, and without sharing continuously in the war, but who do so with intermitting returns to their homes and avocations, or with the occasional assumption of the semblance of peaceful pursuits, divesting themselves of the character or appearance of soldiers – such men, or squads of men, are not public enemies, and, therefore, if captured, are not entitled to the privileges of prisoners of war, but shall be treated summarily as highway robbers or pirates.”
Note:
[1] “Al-Qaeda and Taliban unlawful combatant detainees, unlawful belligerency, and the international laws of armed conflict”
Air Force Law Review, Spring, 2004 by Joseph P. Bialke
findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m6007/is_55/ai_n8585592

I believe the only ROE should be the International LOAC that all nations must adhere to. What we have under the current rules is a situation in which the U.S. is held to the “highest” standards, while others get a pass. You can always raise the bar for the U.S. and there is no incentive for others to follow the LOAC. Ironically, by demanding this, the anti-war crowd defeats its own stated purpose of stopping war, which kinda makes me question their motives.

As I stated earlier, there is a moral question that has to be addressed with regard to sending in troops with no ability to protect themselves without phoning Washington before firing each shot. They are reduced to the Marines in Lebanon in 1982 – a symbol of good faith.

P.S. In your spotter example, why isn’t the cell phone considered a weapon?
 
Thanks for your service, Rock Happy, and thanks for sharing your knowledge with us 🙂

When I was looking into the Geneva Conventions a few years ago, I was astonished to find that they included an rule that combatants not attached to a regular military had tonwear some sort of distinguishing clothing to mark them off. …
Distinction. Distinction means discriminating between lawful combatant targets and noncombatant targets such as civilians, civilian property, POWs, and wounded personnel who are out of combat. The central idea of distinction is to engage only valid military targets. An indiscriminate attack is one that strikes military objectives and civilians or civilian objects without distinction. Distinction requires defenders to separate military objects from civilian objects to the maximum extent feasible. Therefore, it would be inappropriate to locate a hospital or POW camp next to an ammunition factory.

Combatants

The Geneva Conventions distinguish between lawful combatants, noncombatants, and unlawful combatants.

Lawful Combatants.

A lawful combatant is an individual authorized by governmental authority or the LOAC to engage in hostilities. A lawful combatant may be a member of a regular armed force or an irregular force. In either case, the lawful combatant must be commanded by a person responsible for subordinates; have fixed distinctive emblems recognizable at a distance, such as uniforms; carry arms openly; and conduct his or her combat operations according to the LOAC. The LOAC applies to lawful combatants who engage in the hostilities of armed conflict and provides combatant immunity for their lawful warlike acts during conflict, except for LOAC violations.

Noncombatants.

These individuals are not authorized by overnmental authority or the LOAC to engage in hostilities. In fact, they do not engage in hostilities. This category includes civilians accompanying the Armed Forces; combatants who are out of combat, such as POWs and the wounded, and certain military personnel who are members of the Armed Forces not authorized to engage in combatant activities, such as medical personnel and chaplains. Noncombatants may not be made the object of direct attack. They may, however, suffer injury or death incident to a direct attack on a military objective without such an attack violating the LOAC, if such attack is on a lawful target by lawful means.

Unlawful Combatants.

Unlawful combatants are individuals who directly participate in hostilities without being authorized by governmental authority or under international law to do so. For example, bandits who rob and plunder and civilians who attack a downed airman are unlawful combatants. Unlawful combatants who engage in hostilities violate LOAC and become lawful targets. They may be killed or wounded and, if captured, may be tried as war criminals for their LOAC violations.

usmilitary.about.com/cs/wars/a/loac.htm [Emphasis added.]
 
Sedonaman,
Thank you for your service as well, and thank you for going into more detail about the rules.

Wrt your scenario-- first, I would wonder if perhaps the order by Saddan Hussein weren’t illegal to begin with? and if it were, or if it was an actual war, then the people would have been legally able to capture him, wouldn’t they? Would he have been supposed to give a signal of non-agressive intent?

Hope you don’t mind these questions!
 
Sedonaman,
…Wrt your scenario-- first, I would wonder if perhaps the order by Saddan Hussein weren’t illegal to begin with?
Go to the head of the class. Here is my take. At least five were committed:
Saddam agreed to the no-fly zones as a condition of the cease-fire, so,
  • His order to shoot down coalition A/C was illegal;
  • His order to the civilians was also illegal;
  • The gun battery crew are guilty of obeying an illegal order;
  • The civilians are guilty of obeying an illegal order;
  • Because they are a protected class [non-combatants], the civilians are guilty of taking up arms.
…the people would have been legally able to capture him, wouldn’t they? Would he have been supposed to give a signal of non-agressive intent?
Some might say the pilot is for shooting a civilian since aircrew members who bail out generally become non-combatants. But, since the farmers took up arms illegally, they can be killed or captured. Besides, it’s kinda hard to ask someone not to defend himself against a mob that wants to play jabbie-jabbie with pitch-forks [Saddam’s order was to kill downed pilots].

Perhaps Rock Happy can chime in with additional info, or correct me if I’m wrong.
 
Go to the head of the class. Here is my take. At least five were committed:
Saddam agreed to the no-fly zones as a condition of the cease-fire, so,
  • His order to shoot down coalition A/C was illegal;
  • His order to the civilians was also illegal;
  • The gun battery crew are guilty of obeying an illegal order;
  • The civilians are guilty of obeying an illegal order;
  • Because they are a protected class [non-combatants], the civilians are guilty of taking up arms.
Some might say the pilot is for shooting a civilian since aircrew members who bail out generally become non-combatants. But, since the farmers took up arms illegally, they can be killed or captured. Besides, it’s kinda hard to ask someone not to defend himself against a mob that wants to play jabbie-jabbie with pitch-forks [Saddam’s order was to kill downed pilots].

Perhaps Rock Happy can chime in with additional info, or correct me if I’m wrong.
Oh, no, I must have put that badly. I thought the peasants were wrong in killing him if he had not acted aggressively toward them and that he shot them in self-defense, which even a civilian would be permitted to do. I was wondering in case of war, if the peasants could have captured him.
 
Go to the head of the class. Here is my take. At least five were committed:
Saddam agreed to the no-fly zones as a condition of the cease-fire, so,
  • His order to shoot down coalition A/C was illegal;
  • His order to the civilians was also illegal;
  • The gun battery crew are guilty of obeying an illegal order;
  • The civilians are guilty of obeying an illegal order;
  • Because they are a protected class [non-combatants], the civilians are guilty of taking up arms.
Some might say the pilot is for shooting a civilian since aircrew members who bail out generally become non-combatants. But, since the farmers took up arms illegally, they can be killed or captured. Besides, it’s kinda hard to ask someone not to defend himself against a mob that wants to play jabbie-jabbie with pitch-forks [Saddam’s order was to kill downed pilots].

Perhaps Rock Happy can chime in with additional info, or correct me if I’m wrong.
Well, I am just a dumb grunt who followed orders, which i believed to be legal. You guys sound like lawyers.

A couple of thoughts come to mind. Did Saddam recognize the authority of the UN, and was Iraq a signatory to the Geneva Conventions? If it was prior to Saddam, did he ever abjure on that? We know that he used gas on his own people.

That is a bit before my time, but I think Iraq was a member of the UN, and therefore subject to its resolutions. Therefore, his order to shoot down UN sanctioned aircraft would have been illegal.

Here is a link I just found which claims to outline Saddam’s violations of the GC, if you are interested: heritage.org/research/reports/2003/04/saddam-husseins-violations-of-the-geneva-convention

OK… just scanned a wiki article on the GC. Turns out that the last authority is the UN security council. So, does that mean that the GC is expected to be binding on any UN member, regardless of signatory status of that member?

BTW, the first regular Iraqi soldiers we encountered wanted to surrender to us. We had no way to take them prisoner, so we hydrated them and gave them some food before sending them on their way. They were from an artillery battalion, and of great interest to us was that they all had atropine injectors on them. They believed that they had neurotoxin artillery shells to fire. As far as I know, none were ever found. But if the shells did not exist, even the guys who thought they would be loading and firing them were tricked. I also wondered how much they knew about the what the Geneva Conventions say about chemical weapons.

Here is one for you. A squad on foot patrol. Some kids start throwing rocks. Not small rocks. OT vengeance type of behavior. teens throwing hard. a face blow could be blindness, broken nose, teeth out, concussion… who knows. they hurt s lot. possible knee injury stuff. these kids are brutal. the fresh lieutenant is in command. he is being asked for advice on how to handle it. he is at a loss what to do. but the problem was easily solved. the kids stopped.

there were a group of old men nearby in the street. they were asked to stop the kids before someone got hurt. just an anecdote. not sure how relevant to this discussion, which started as a question about the moral dilemma which a conscientious objector might experience.
 
…Here is one for you. A squad on foot patrol. Some kids start throwing rocks. Not small rocks. OT vengeance type of behavior. teens throwing hard. a face blow could be blindness, broken nose, teeth out, concussion… who knows. they hurt s lot. possible knee injury stuff. these kids are brutal. the fresh lieutenant is in command. he is being asked for advice on how to handle it. he is at a loss what to do. but the problem was easily solved. the kids stopped.

there were a group of old men nearby in the street. they were asked to stop the kids before someone got hurt. just an anecdote. not sure how relevant to this discussion, which started as a question about the moral dilemma which a conscientious objector might experience.
Great story! That lieutenant was very wise.
 
Great story! That lieutenant was very wise.
Actually, his men solved the problem while he was perplexed as to how to handle it. It demonstrates how we get into a particular paradigm of thinking about problems, when a different answer is right in front of us.
 
Thanks for your service, Rock Happy, and thanks for sharing your knowledge with us 🙂

When I was looking into the Geneva Conventions a few years ago, I was astonished to find that they included an rule that combatants not attached to a regular military had tonwear some sort of distinguishing clothing to mark them off. My first reaction was that this seemed to make their task more dangerous–because i was thinking about the French Resistance. But then I realized that this rule is not for the protection of the combatants but for the protection of civilians.

A lot of members of the various Resistance movements spent a lot of their time in the mountains or at least far away from towns and places with a lot of civilians. This is another way to protect civilians.

In the case of those we are fighting now, they do not wear identifying clothing, and they hang out among civilians. As mentiined in another thread, when they do this sort of thing, it is not we who are endangering the civilians around them, but the enemy comabatants who refuse to identify themselves and take other measures to protect their own civilians.

When spotting seems to be happening, and someone is behaving as a spotter would, there is only so much you can do to assure that that person really is a spotter. They use oir concern for their civilans as protection for themselves (the cowards).

And if you couldn’t use a sniper to shoot the spotter and so the building collapsed… would US soldiers not have cleared the civilians out of the building before using it to shoot from?
Oh… and I just remembered as I reflected on things… in the case of the spotter who was killed by one of our snipers, he was in a vehicle with two children. The children were not physically harmed, but obviously severely traumatized emotionally. There is more moral fodder for you. My opinion is that it was reprehensible that he brought kids along as cover. I think it is fortunate for everyone that we had the ability to kill him and not the kids. But I can’t imagine what they went through emotionally for that. I hope they are not the Osama’s of tomorrow.
 
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