Solemn Mass of Christmas Eve With Pope Benedict VI

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Can’t wait for when Papal Masses are celebrated exclusively ad orientem again! I figure he doesn’t do it now for pastoral reasons. The media, for example, would rip him apart for doing it.
 
YoungTradCath said:
Can’t wait for when Papal Masses are celebrated exclusively ad orientem again! I figure he doesn’t do it now for pastoral reasons. The media, for example, would rip him apart for doing it.
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Do you really think he will?
 
TrueLight said:
Do you really think he will?
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In all his writings on the liturgy he has commended the practice with the highest language.

In fact, in his Spirit of the Liturgy, on pg. 78, the Pope (as a cardinal) quotes Fr. Louis Bouyer saying about the “communal meal” aspect that versus populum pseudoneo-historians love to talk about, saying, “Nowhere in Christian antiquity, could have arisen the idea of having to ‘face the people’ to preside at a meal. The communal character of a meal was emphasized just by the opposite disposition: the fact that all the participants were on the same side of the table.”

Pope Benedict is obviously quite partial to that liturgical posture, and I think I would faint of excitement if he celebrated mass at the Papal Altar in that posture. He already has at St. Peters at another altar, in fact, as Pope mind you, just not the Papal Altar.
 
YoungTradCath said:
Can’t wait for when Papal Masses are celebrated exclusively ad orientem again! I figure he doesn’t do it now for pastoral reasons. The media, for example, would rip him apart for doing it.
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Maybe he’ll gradually do it. Remember the Sistine Chapel Mass, where he celebrated on their old High Altar? Perhaps he will periodically celebrate ad orientem when there is a high altar.
 
JGMendes4049 said:
Maybe he’ll gradually do it. Remember the Sistine Chapel Mass, where he celebrated on their old High Altar? Perhaps he will periodically celebrate ad orientem when there is a high altar.
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Yes, that was divine. The pope, before VII, celebrated mass on the Papal Altar ad orientem. In fact, any mass can be celebrated in that posture on even a “low altar.”
 
YoungTradCath said:
Can’t wait for when Papal Masses are celebrated exclusively ad orientem again!
Click to expand...
TrueLight said:
Do you really think he will?
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JGMendes4049 said:
Maybe he’ll gradually do it.
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Huh? Masses at the high altar of St. Peter’s are always celebrated ad orientem, i.e., “toward the east.” :confused:

Oh, are people confused because this is also facing the congregation instead of the back wall? Don’t forget, the crux of ad orientem worship is not “talking at a wall,” nor is it “turning his back on the people.” Besides which, there is a giant pit (called the confessio) on the other side of the altar. Masses have never been said from that side since the basilica was built. In fact, they were never said facing the back wall (west) at Old St. Peter’s either.

Gaudete igitur! Quia missa semper celebratur « ad orientem » apud basilicam S. Petri!
 
I saw some of it this afternoon on EWTN. It looked so beautiful, but I didn’t have time to sit down and watch the whole thing. I saw everything through the Gradual. Nevertheless, I saw the whole thing on T.V. last year.

Attending Midnight Mass with the Pope is definitely on my bucket list. Anyone have any connections in the Vatican? 😉
 
YoungTradCath said:
Can’t wait for when Papal Masses are celebrated exclusively ad orientem again! I figure he doesn’t do it now for pastoral reasons. The media, for example, would rip him apart for doing it.
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It’s usually ad (or ante) camera when the Mass is televised. 🙂
 
MarkThompson said:
Huh? Masses at the high altar of St. Peter’s are always celebrated ad orientem, i.e., “toward the east.” :confused:

Oh, are people confused because this is also facing the congregation instead of the back wall? Don’t forget, the crux of ad orientem worship is not “talking at a wall,” nor is it “turning his back on the people.” Besides which, there is a giant pit (called the confessio) on the other side of the altar. Masses have never been said from that side since the basilica was built. In fact, they were never said facing the back wall (west) at Old St. Peter’s either.

Gaudete igitur! Quia missa semper celebratur « ad orientem » apud basilicam S. Petri!
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True, but forget not, though, that in times past the congregation was admonished to “turn toward the Lord” (“versus dominium” IIRC), which means that they would have faced the doors rather than the altar.
 
malphono said:
True, but forget not, though, that in times past the congregation was admonished to “turn toward the Lord” (“versus dominium” IIRC), which means that they would have faced the doors rather than the altar.
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That is conjectured as regards early centuries, but I don’t think it’s been done even since the middle ages. Certainly not since the new basilica was built.
 
MarkThompson said:
Huh? Masses at the high altar of St. Peter’s are always celebrated ad orientem, i.e., “toward the east.” :confused:

Oh, are people confused because this is also facing the congregation instead of the back wall? Don’t forget, the crux of ad orientem worship is not “talking at a wall,” nor is it “turning his back on the people.” Besides which, there is a giant pit (called the confessio) on the other side of the altar. Masses have never been said from that side since the basilica was built. In fact, they were never said facing the back wall (west) at Old St. Peter’s either.

Gaudete igitur! Quia missa semper celebratur « ad orientem » apud basilicam S. Petri!
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I was thinking about this, and you’re right. The technical term if the Pope was facing the other direction would be ad ipsidem, I believe. The Pope has always faced ad orientem, which is such at St. Peters’ that it so happens to be facing towards the people too. This was even when there were Solemn Papal Masses in the Extraordinary Form.

Might I ask what the confessio actually is? I know that it leads to the tomb of Peter, but in that image, is it visible?
 
YoungTradCath said:
I was thinking about this, and you’re right. The technical term if the Pope was facing the other direction would be ad ipsidem, I believe. The Pope has always faced ad orientem, which is such at St. Peters’ that it so happens to be facing towards the people too. This was even when there were Solemn Papal Masses in the Extraordinary Form.
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The phrase is usually given as versus apsidem, or versus absidem; apsis and absis are variant spellings, and you can see the connection to the English word “apse.” As far as I’m aware, this is purely a modern (post-2000s) term, and is merely intended to mean “facing the back wall.” (It is thus used by people who are tired of always having to hear how at St. Peter’s and the Lateran Mass is celebrated facing east and the congregation.) Unfortunately, mistaken views about the nature and significance of ad orientem worship lead to absolute travesties like this (congregation crammed into the sanctuary – even the women – so that the priest may turn his back on them. :doh2:)
Might I ask what the confessio actually is? I know that it leads to the tomb of Peter, but in that image, is it visible?
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The actual tomb of St. Peter is not visible there; it would be, I think, behind and underneath. Go ahead and take this little tour, you’ll find it very interesting I’m sure. But there are other churches with confessiones, the two main ones I can think of being S. Giovanni in Laterano (above) and S. Clemente (below). Invariably these are positioned so that Mass at the high altar is celebrated facing the nave. The Catholic Encyclopedia has a shortish article here.

http://www.sacred-destinations.com/italy/images/rome/giovanni-laterano/eosb_209_f_350.jpg

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)
 
I noticed the usual Missa de Angelis setting wasn’t used. Isn’t it the default papal mass setting anymore?
 
YoungTradCath said:
Can’t wait for when Papal Masses are celebrated exclusively ad orientem again! I figure he doesn’t do it now for pastoral reasons. The media, for example, would rip him apart for doing it.
Click to expand...
I believe the pope does face East when he celebrates the Mass as currently configured at Saint Peter’s Basilica. It is currently ad orientem. The only way for the pope to celebrate the Mass ad orientem and with his back to the congregation would be to move the entire sanctuary which is currently located over the top of Saint Peter’s grave and under the great dome to entrance of the basilica. That’s just not going to happen. Ever.
 
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