Some advice needed re: interacting with people

[roselily]

How to deal with this kind of thing? Is there a homebrew way or something I could read? If you believe this is something I should talk to a professional about, shoot ahead. I may be bad at handling non-hostile criticism (hostile is better because you can fight back), as occurs from this writing, but I definitely won’t feel bad due to honest, well-meaning advice that stays within some boundaries of form, and a manly, straightforward “go talk to a pro” is not going to make me feel bad. Thank you. For reading this too.

I read you had given many good advice on the forum. I saw that you have a very kind and sensitive soul; Now do not take everything so serious, that sometimes people just want help, they stand on the same line as you, and that also sometimes people just joking, why so serious? just let it go; everyone have the time tears in eyes.

I thought that if one has everything so successful, so beautiful and have everything one want , that maybe not really good, but when you have some trouble and suffering in life you will understand more, so that you may more wise; - oh I mean you seems already very wise.
All will be well, you are so good.

 

[shainski]

Thank you. Yes, that’s what I’ve decided in this situation. That is, either that, or just giving advice as asked and refusing to be swayed by any complaint of hurt.

I wasn’t ask to be an uncle figure but it was very broad, i.e. any things men could misinterpret and be scared by in a dating site profile. I probably offered wider advice than the scope that was asked, perhaps because I enjoyed sharing it rather than because it was actually needed, which is spiritually imperfect and a lack of humility but I have a hard time seeing it as a serious offence or hurt given to somebody. As in serious enough to take the risk of making me feel bad in bringing it up. On the other hand, if I’m expected to take criticism well, shouldn’t the person criticising haven’t been able to take well what wasn’t even criticism but a little bit of advice more than asked for (i.e. some unintended “good uncling” while giving bona fide advice)?

But the problem is not with whether that person wronged me (if so, then I waive it) but how stuff like that is able to beat me up emotionally, and I’m used to hearing things and cleaning mess, as well as all sorts of diplomacy, negotiation and fixing. I feel like this really shouldn’t be affecting me so much. I can talk down a raging person with properly diagnosed issues on a fit, without so much damage to myself, but I can’t handle the emotional aspects of this kind of thing with a person claiming to be hurt by me.

Thank you. I will look into that after all. Only once in my lifetime have I ever taken a pill specifically to calm my nerves and it was a herbal one.

I’m still trying to grapple with the kinds of offenses you are describing.

But you give an example that i can get a hold of here.

Let me extrapolate:

I put a profile on an online dating site. (I’m putting an extreme example here to illustrate a point)

[me]Chevalier, would you be kind enough to look over my profile and tell me if it describes me in a positive light.
[chevalier]If you were interested in attracting the bottom wrung of society, then i think that your profile would accomplish that.
[me]But i’m interested in attracting successful individuals such as yourself.
[chevalier]In that case, then i would start over.
[me]you mean, rewrite the entire profile?
[chevalier]No, in my experience, you will need to start over in developing an attractive portfolio of experiences and attributes so that you can write a better profile.

now after a couple of days, i realize that you are telling me that I am not qualified to attract successful people as yourself.

[me]Chevalier, I need to talk to you.
[Chevalier]You sound so serious, what is is?
[me]Okay, but i have a meeting in a couple minutes. Can we talk on Friday night. You really hurt me
[Chevalier]What did i do?
[me]No, i can’t get into all that right now. See you on Friday.

---

Chevalier. You are very clever. But i can see how your style may hit someone at a later time with what you said. If others are seeking out your wisdom, it must be because they value your opinion. That means, however, that you will tell people things that they don’t really want to hear. But they are seeking out your advice.

If i had an uncle who was an old curmudgeon, i wouldn’t seek his advice - because i know what i would expect. So, if i am asking you, I’m hoping that you will confirm my side, but i recognize that you might not. I might feel hurt by your honest evaluation, but it is not directed at you. You feel the brunt of it because you delivered the message.

Now if you are giving advice when i am not asking for it, I might resent that. If i ask you for tips on throwing a football and you reply “Shainski, i have to tell you that people with a lot more talent than you have failed to make the football team”. I would have a reason to feel insulted. I didn’t ask you if i were any good, i just asked if you could help me get better.

So if this kind of thing is occurring to you with regular frequency, then you might want to be clearer with the initial message. I have a feeling that your vast vocabulary and knowledge may be getting in the way of your message.

But sometimes your message will be unwelcome. Look at another current thread of the gentleman who requested that his sister-in-law and her boyfriend sleep in different rooms while at his house to understand that no matter how you deliver the message, it may not be accepted gracefully.

 

[Pug]

What about brevity? Do you also prefer “accusations” to be brief, clear and preferably consistent?

Yes, but it rarely seems to happen that way. I prefer when they don’t like how I said something that they give me a clear, short alternative, saying to me, “could you say it this way next time?” To get clarity like that, some people need to think for a few minutes to produce the right language. And if they are emotional when they are trying to think up the words, it will take them at least twice too long because brains seem to shut off under heavy emotion.

If you are getting inconsistency from the person try saying to them, “Here are two things you said (say them back to them). I don’t know how to understand both together. Could you clarify?” Maybe they will back off their statements or perhaps they will say that they are really concerned about something else altogether.

Maybe there’s a gender difference. I have an easier time with males, although not by far, in such situations. I mean, I can still diffuse or even calm down a raging hurt lady as long as I have direct physical contact (much harder via phone or e-mail or anything of the sort), but working it out and avoiding getting emotionally disturbed by the whole thing is hard.

I think there is probably some gender difference. You are right that it really helps to be able to touch or smile at the person. Some people don’t like to decide what they think about something until they get your response or clarification, so it almost appears like they are thinking as they talk to you. This can get very tricky, since they can suddenly get more upset if you don’t seem however it is that they are looking for. It helps if you know the person’s style. Or, sometimes it helps to ask if what they most want right now is your attention or if they are looking for your advice/problem solving.

I guess I could, after all, show more empathy. But this is sometimes like having to show empathy to someone who isn’t currently showing you any. Or is showing you empathy emotionally while having his or her accusations still logically inconsistent.

Yes, it is hard to show empathy when the person seems to not be empathic to your fate of having to listen to them while they stumble through expressing their hurt. Perhaps you could ask the person to say to you, “Chevalier, I really appreciate that you are taking the time to listen to me as I try to say what I want to say. Bear with me while I get my words right, please.” Or whatever words they could say to you to make it clear to you that you and she/he are both cooperating in listening positively to each other. That way you might not feel so much like they are telling you about their hurt while they have no regard for the pain that telling causes you.

Good luck with all this. I think conversations can be a minefield sometimes.

 

[StarFireKK]

Learn when people ask for advice or perspective they normally don’t want either.

As a man and a lawyer your instinct is to “fix” the problem. Normally that’s not what people want. People just want a sounding board and someone to help them organize their thoughts.

If you find when people ask you for advice you often find yourself in trouble because you offend them learn to use your trade to help you out. Ask them questions about what they think should happen and why. How they feel about the situation and what they are worried about. It is a much longer conversation and a much harder one but they’ll walk away thinking you are just the greatest.

There is a difference between clients and friends. Clients pay you for your advice and don’t mind hearing “You should do x.” Friends on the other hand…generally aren’t fond of such treatment.

 

[ack]

If you are getting inconsistency from the person try saying to them, “Here are two things you said (say them back to them). I don’t know how to understand both together. Could you clarify?” Maybe they will back off their statements or perhaps they will say that they are really concerned about something else altogether.

When someone is upset, I’ve found that this line of questioning will usually backfire. The person will either feel that you’re trying to “trick” them by memorizing and repeating statements they made in the past, or they’ll get creeped out that you’re dwelling on their rant and analyzing it to such a degree.

The best way to react is to move beyond the surface issue and get down to the core of what’s really bothering them. The trick is to figure this out without interrogating the upset person.

 

[Pug]

When someone is upset, I’ve found that this line of questioning will usually backfire. The person will either feel that you’re trying to “trick” them by memorizing and repeating statements they made in the past, or they’ll get creeped out that you’re dwelling on their rant and analyzing it to such a degree.

The best way to react is to move beyond the surface issue and get down to the core of what’s really bothering them. The trick is to figure this out without interrogating the upset person.

The phrase for me that especially makes me agree with you is “in the past”. I agree it can be a bad idea to try to talk about something they said in the past and put it with something they are saying now. I meant only in the course of one conversation. They say “I need space” and then they say “I want to spend more time with you” so you need to ask them how they go together, like maybe “space after work to veg on the couch, but more time with them on the weekends”. Thanks for helping me clarify that.

Also, you are right that one ought not do that with every little thing they say. You have to figure out the essence of what they want and if that item is not clear, then get the clarification.

 

[AnneTeresa]

I’m don’t totally understand the original question, but I may understand some of it and here’s my two cents…

Try to listen before you speak. Reflect back what the other person is saying before answering. That makes them feel heard.

Ask, “do you want my advice?” before you just give it. It always helps I’ve found. People don’t like being lectured to even if your intentions are good.

I think you may have a need to be always right; it makes you uncomfortable to be wrong or misunderstood. Is that right? If so, it’s a form of pride (not what we always think of as pride, right?) It’s also what probably drew you to law. (My dad was a lawyer, believe me I know .)

If someone tells you they are hurt by what you said, ask them what you they would have liked you to say. Learn from what they tell you and keep practicing.

Worrying a lot and lack of sleep may be because you think you didn’t act “perfectly” or were incorrectly perceived by them when your intentions were otherwise. That’s also a form of pride (I do that myself.) Pray about it instead of worrying.

Hope this helps.

 

[Qwestions]

Chevalier, we must be related! From the wordiness to the shock (and hurt) to learn that I’ve hurt or offended someone; the nights lying in bed replaying the scenarios, rewording what I might have said; chest pain, upset stomach, gnawing insides, throat tightness, headaches, perspiration so intense that it drips from my hands, repeated bathroom trips, sometimes extreme difficulty breathing, and tears galore—utter anguish. I’m not an attorney, but I’ve been fortunate to be able to trust that my memory is almost always correct in whatever I’m discussing. I tended to migrate toward people and problem solving in high school and was graduated with a degree in speech education, so there are even more parallels (after a fashion) between your story and mine.

My entire life I’ve tried to be kind and not hurt anyone’s feelings and have been so misquoted and misconstrued and embroiled in verbal peccadillos that tax the imagination as to how they ever could have occurred to anyone, especially to me, when I’ve tried to be a mediator, tried to mend hurt feelings between others, have bent over backward trying to be fair, always have taken the short end of the stick, have done my best to placate those who’ve been “bent out of shape,” and have planned and executed so many surprise parties for family, friends, and co-workers, that I couldn’t begin to count them. I thought that everybody had the same visceral reactions that I’ve so frequently had, but that there was something lacking in me, since I’d never been able to control them as others obviously did. At the age of 66, I learned that what I’d been experiencing since third grade were “classic textbook panic attacks.” However, they’re also “classic textbook low blood sugar attacks,” too, so take your pick!

Doctors may have meant well, but they didn’t do diddly-squat in alleviating my dilemma; I’ve had to research and research until I’ve finally learned that protein every two to three hours, along with maintaining a low-blood sugar diet, helps immensely. It doesn’t totally alleviate my discomfort, but it certainly helps. Unfortunately, being a lifelong sugarholic (ah, sweet chocolate!) has been to my detriment, but our lessons are brought home when we learn them the hard way! The other biggie that has brought me great relief has been all-around vitamin and mineral supplementation, with emphasis on the B’s, C, and magnesium. (I’ve found some wonderful products, if you want to private message me.) Before the supplementation, I found that my body felt ready for the teacher to say, “Go!” when we’d be at the start line for a sprint, or in the last of a basketball ttriple overtime, or at the finish line at the Kentucky Derby, with two horses neck and neck and a third about to pass both of them. Deep abdominal breathing also helped, but I found it very difficult to learn to do even though I’d been breathing from the diaphragm for decades.

If I had my life to live again, I’d try to always restate a question: “You’re asking me to tell you what I think you should do in order to be promoted?” “What are you hoping I’ll tell you?” “What do you think I’ll tell you?” “Do you want me to be very truthful, or do you want me to tell you what you want to hear (having previously received the answer to that question)?” Grin here, and ask confidentially, “So how long are you going to be hurt/pout/hold a grudge/seethe (depending upon the person) if I don’t tell you what you want to hear?” When I can remember to ask such questions, the consequences are less likely to leave me skewered for having tried to be the good guy and for having tried so sincerely to answer, as asked.

I’ve often thought that my hell has been here on earth, the continual victim of the exact things I’ve tried to prevent happening to others. By far, the worst incidents were those involving people very close to me or bullies disguised as supervisors, abusing their positions of authority. Perhaps the years would have been different if I’d thought of narrowing and defining the questions when I was much younger. We both know, though, that our natures are such that we’ll always “sweat the small stuff.” Words truly are mightier than the sword. Prayer has always been my refuge. I wish you better luck than I have had. May the peace of Our Lord be with you.

 

[VeritasLuxMea]

This is now the 2nd thread where I’ve read your original post, Chev, and then everyone’s replies to you and STILL not understood what the topic even was…

 

[TheRealJuliane]

This is now the 2nd thread where I’ve read your original post, Chev, and then everyone’s replies to you and STILL not understood what the topic even was…

:yup::hypno:

 

[Em_in_FL]

This:

Learn when people ask for advice or perspective they normally don’t want either.

As a man and a lawyer your instinct is to “fix” the problem. Normally that’s not what people want. People just want a sounding board and someone to help them organize their thoughts.

And this:

Try to listen before you speak. Reflect back what the other person is saying before answering. That makes them feel heard.

Ask, “do you want my advice?” before you just give it. It always helps I’ve found. People don’t like being lectured to even if your intentions are good.

Chev,
You’re obviously a very logic-minded person (that’s a neutral statement, btw).
There are also others who are very emotional (that’s also a neutral statement).
Neither is “better” (in and of itself) than the other. Rarely are they extremely compatible.
Some personalities are just never going to meld… as friends, acquaintances, or with love. It’s important to, first off, know yourself. Know how you communicate and how you sound to others. It’s also important to know others - how they communicate and how they sound to you. It’s almost like speaking 2 different languages if they two are so dissimilar.

This isn’t entirely your fault, nor is it your friend’s fault. But you can increase the charity of the situation by taking a MAJOR step back and ***listening ***through THEIR perspective rather than ***fixing ***through YOUR perspective.

 

[chevalier]

Thank you, Qwestions. Yes, I’m sure we must be related. It’s actually surprising to be so understood. This doesn’t normally happen.

Chevalier, we must be related! From the wordiness to the shock (and hurt) to learn that I’ve hurt or offended someone; the nights lying in bed replaying the scenarios, rewording what I might have said; chest pain, upset stomach, gnawing insides, throat tightness, headaches, perspiration so intense that it drips from my hands, repeated bathroom trips, sometimes extreme difficulty breathing, and tears galore—utter anguish. I’m not an attorney, but I’ve been fortunate to be able to trust that my memory is almost always correct in whatever I’m discussing. I tended to migrate toward people and problem solving in high school and was graduated with a degree in speech education, so there are even more parallels (after a fashion) between your story and mine.

Yes.

My entire life I’ve tried to be kind and not hurt anyone’s feelings and have been so misquoted and misconstrued and embroiled in verbal peccadillos that tax the imagination as to how they ever could have occurred to anyone, especially to me, when I’ve tried to be a mediator, tried to mend hurt feelings between others, have bent over backward trying to be fair, always have taken the short end of the stick, have done my best to placate those who’ve been “bent out of shape,”

Yes.

I thought that everybody had the same visceral reactions that I’ve so frequently had, but that there was something lacking in me, since I’d never been able to control them as others obviously did.

Yes.

At the age of 66, I learned that what I’d been experiencing since third grade were “classic textbook panic attacks.” However, they’re also “classic textbook low blood sugar attacks,” too, so take your pick!

Hmm. I’ve noticed chocolate craving or a sudden need to put sugar in the coffee, sometimes more than I normally would if I did at all, not that it would actually work (sometimes it’d backfire with a stupid anxiety-ish sugar rush). I remember translating a medical article that mentioned a kind of sugar level related situation where problems existed but were hard to nail down because they were mostly confined to night time (still, I guess blood exams should show some problems and mine come out okay…), and there were other things that sounded familiar, such as with a characteristic smell in breath on occasions (asked by others, so not just imagining it). I guess I should ask the GP about that next time I see him, (which I’d otherwise hope to be never).

The other biggie that has brought me great relief has been all-around vitamin and mineral supplementation, with emphasis on the B’s, C, and magnesium. (I’ve found some wonderful products, if you want to private message me.)

Check. I have those on my desk. Family members for some reason believed it was necessary to give them to me. Magnesium/B6, ferrum, train oil, C.

What about temperature? Have you noticed any difference? A year or so ago I realised that feeling cold was making me feel bad emotionally, as was insufficient light, sometimes even food. I wouldn’t normally pay any attention to that and as a teenager or university student I wouldn’t even have bothered to grab a sweater because I’d be above that, let alone something like food (first meal at 7 p.m. on a busy day etc.). Right now I tend to need to pay attention to those things not because of themselves but because of the emotional stuff (that results in bad things physically). This may be the first Lent in years without any fasting above the required minimum.

 

[chevalier]

Before the supplementation, I found that my body felt ready for the teacher to say, “Go!” when we’d be at the start line for a sprint, or in the last of a basketball ttriple overtime, or at the finish line at the Kentucky Derby, with two horses neck and neck and a third about to pass both of them. Deep abdominal breathing also helped, but I found it very difficult to learn to do even though I’d been breathing from the diaphragm for decades.

I somehow learnt abdominal breathing as a kid when I read rhetorics. It was supposedly better for long-winded speeches. It was also helpful due to asthma and bad nose (always clogged). Now that you say, I believe breathing comes through the chest when there’s an emotional situation I have trouble handling. This adds to the stress because I can’t breath through the nose and can’t really take deep breaths through the chest due to asthma, so one day an emotional clash with a friend or relative or another accusation from somebody may end up being the cause of death.

Speaking of which. Today, I log in on a dating website where I have a profile. Casual visit, as in who’s new, any visitors on the profile etc. I see, “your profile needs to be corrected,” and I think what the heck? (Because my pictures are all clean, don’t show other people, there’s no prohibited information such as phone numbers etc.) Except that before I think (or shortly thereafter), I already get hit with a somatic reaction. The kind that makes your jaw shiver, your heart is up your neck and you can’t eat, much in line with elementary school class test morning aches or first date anxiety. And this isn’t even liability. Nobody would be suing me for damages, let alone getting any, nobody would even know because surnames are banned there. This is probably just the effect of an implication that I broke some rules. With the added factor that I have no idea what kind of rules somebody’s brain ever came up with me breaking. I have the ability to control myself and just write a questioning e-mail to them, (while thinking or rather feeling what if they don’t give a clear answer, I’d have to tell them I need to know whatever they see as infringing if I’m going to be able to correct it.)

The above is actually a stupid thing of objectively inferior significance and likely to be a very minor technical violation taken out of proportion or an instance of a stupid moderator on a website that’s not central to my life. Which shouldn’t be troubling anybody because it is a simple fact of life. What’s silly? I’m not sure the sensation isn’t actually bigger than when losing a pro se case because the court can’t get the law or the facts straight, or just wants to dismiss, or is outright hostile. I have the nerve to tell the presiding justice at the highest tier of appeal that he’s making communication in the courtroom difficult but I don’t have the nerve to uncare about a clueless moderator on a website or a barely known acquaintance.

If I had my life to live again, I’d try to always restate a question: “You’re asking me to tell you what I think you should do in order to be promoted?” “What are you hoping I’ll tell you?” “What do you think I’ll tell you?” “Do you want me to be very truthful, or do you want me to tell you what you want to hear (having previously received the answer to that question)?” Grin here, and ask confidentially, “So how long are you going to be hurt/pout/hold a grudge/seethe (depending upon the person) if I don’t tell you what you want to hear?” When I can remember to ask such questions, the consequences are less likely to leave me skewered for having tried to be the good guy and for having tried so sincerely to answer, as asked.

Thank you. I sometimes try to do that, but this is expressly a learnt skill, not something innate. This is probably a bit like being a psychopath: they supposedly don’t have empathy. People like I (not sure if I could or should write “we” here, hope you understand) actually have it and feel it strongly but the effect is still that people misjudge us. And I’m actually convinced that if anybody is wrong, it’s they, not we, even despite the natural inclination to see oneself (in this case myself) as likely being the one who is in the wrong.

I’ve often thought that my hell has been here on earth, the continual victim of the exact things I’ve tried to prevent happening to others.

Similar. Another bad thing is the suggestion that the thing which we are trying to prevent, we are actually doing to them anyway. For example we don’t want to hurt them, so we employ a conscious device to lessen the load. If we keep it brief, they’ll be hurt by the missing nuance. If we elaborate, they’ll feel overwhelmed or unable to narrow down the essence of the problem. And if, for fear of hurting them, we don’t say this, they will be hurt because we said that. This looks like a puzzle without a solution, where you just can’t get it right. I wonder if this isn’t a pride issue like some other poster has said.

By far, the worst incidents were those involving people very close to me or bullies disguised as supervisors, abusing their positions of authority.

I can relate to that. You must have been through quite some, it seems. I can imagine that. Actually, that’s also the story of how I became a lawyer at age 10 (and stopped at 25). Darn. Wonder if all the having the rules used against me in childhood isn’t catching up with me around the 30 point.

 

[chevalier]

Perhaps the years would have been different if I’d thought of narrowing and defining the questions when I was much younger.

If you don’t mind my asking, have you had problems with teachers’, examiners’ and other such people’s understanding of test or similar questions? Or weird, unstated expectations? I wonder if don’t owe this whole problem to the educational system by the way. Just a thought. (At which point I’m sorry for the nonsequiturs and poor elaboration but meanwhile I’ve been texted by the same acquintance and I’ve got to answer, which is eating me up because she’s teaching a course I’d normally be attending in 4 hours and was hoping silently to dodge tonight.)

We both know, though, that our natures are such that we’ll always “sweat the small stuff.” Words truly are mightier than the sword. Prayer has always been my refuge. I wish you better luck than I have had. May the peace of Our Lord be with you.

Yes, perhaps I’ve been praying too little recently, at least in terms of morning and evening (since I pray a lot for short durations throughout the day). The thought of keeping one position of the body for longer than 5 minutes… Hope God doesn’t mind walking.

 

[chevalier]

This is now the 2nd thread where I’ve read your original post, Chev, and then everyone’s replies to you and STILL not understood what the topic even was…

Different personalities. Perhaps this is so much in-character that if your own character is different, then this sounds completely alien to you.

In essence, I have a problem dealing with something similar to emotional blackmail. This isn’t really blackmail because the other person isn’t extorting anything, but is similar in being able to hold you hostage, make you feel awful etc. because you supposedly hurt that person or did some other big wrong thing which you’re clueless about. In two words, I’d call it “surprise liability”.

 

[chevalier]

Chev,
You’re obviously a very logic-minded person (that’s a neutral statement, btw).
There are also others who are very emotional (that’s also a neutral statement).
Neither is “better” (in and of itself) than the other. Rarely are they extremely compatible.
Some personalities are just never going to meld… as friends, acquaintances, or with love. It’s important to, first off, know yourself. Know how you communicate and how you sound to others. It’s also important to know others - how they communicate and how they sound to you. It’s almost like speaking 2 different languages if they two are so dissimilar.

Yes, it’s like foreign languages. If I put the skills to use, I can communicate, I can get things, explain things, diffuse things, patch up things, and more. On the other hand, I get those weird situations like described in the opening post.

This isn’t entirely your fault, nor is it your friend’s fault. But you can increase the charity of the situation by taking a MAJOR step back and ***listening ***through THEIR perspective rather than ***fixing ***through YOUR perspective.

To be honest, I feel like taking a MAJOR step back, period. This is amplified by my nudging gut sensation that the acquaintance (she isn’t a friend) is intending some strange kind of relationship, not necessarily romantic but I really don’t know what kind, that I don’t want. And it might even be just a manner of being, not a relationship type. To be honest, I just wanna run or shut off, go away, disappear, have it off my shoulders and my brain.

But I hear what you say. Maybe the cultural differences between fixers and listeners are playing out here.