Some Catholics accept justification(initial ) by faith alone per

[Mammoths]

Can you explain why Protestants believe this? I have never understood the mindset that says, “I have faith and I don’t want to help God’s work”. Can you please explain this selfishness?

As if you, being mortal, could ever “help” God–the arrogance!

Isaia 14
12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, who didst rise in the morning? how art thou fallen to the earth, that didst wound the nations?
13 And thou saidst in thy heart: I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God, I will sit in the mountain of the covenant, in the sides of the north.
14 I will ascend above the height of the clouds, I will be like the most High.

 

[mattp0625]

As if you, being mortal, could ever “help” God–the arrogance!

Isaia 14
12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, who didst rise in the morning? how art thou fallen to the earth, that didst wound the nations?
13 And thou saidst in thy heart: I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God, I will sit in the mountain of the covenant, in the sides of the north.
14 I will ascend above the height of the clouds, I will be like the most High.

Well…no God doesn’t need us, but… in 1 Cor 3, Paul wrote we are co-laborers.

In Acts 9, he was also deemed the Lord’s chosen instrument.

 

[Mammoths]

Well…no God doesn’t need us, but… in 1 Cor 3, Paul wrote we are co-laborers.

In Acts 9, he was also deemed the Lord’s chosen instrument.

Only by His grace. I am in the process of building a bunkbed. My three older sons ages 5, 3, and two have participated in the project. So they are participants making a bunkbed with dad. Did they help? No. they put their hand on the tool and I cover it and control the tool. But they still get to share my joy.

 

[Duane1966]

As if you, being mortal, could ever “help” God–the arrogance!

Isaia 14
12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, who didst rise in the morning? how art thou fallen to the earth, that didst wound the nations?
13 And thou saidst in thy heart: I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God, I will sit in the mountain of the covenant, in the sides of the north.
14 I will ascend above the height of the clouds, I will be like the most High.

Actually, we can help God. He does not need the help. But He allows, and desires us to help. And by this allowance of God, we become transformed.

Only by His grace. I am in the process of building a bunkbed. My three older sons ages 5, 3, and two have participated in the project. So they are participants making a bunkbed with dad. Did they help? No. they put their hand on the tool and I cover it and control the tool. But they still get to share my joy.

And yet one day, you will probably let them control the tool themselves for at least part of a project, even though you will not need them to do it.

So lets say you build another bunk bed when your oldest is ten. This time, though you do not need him to, you let the oldest varnish the wooden parts. You supply him with the brush and show him how to varnish. You also supply verbal encouragement along the way. Was he a co-laborer?

 

[Mammoths]

Actually, we can help God. He does not need the help. But He allows, and desires us to help. And by this allowance of God, we become transformed.

And yet one day, you will probably let them control the tool themselves for at least part of a project, even though you will not need them to do it.

So lets say you build another bunk bed when your oldest is ten. This time, though you do not need him to, you let the oldest varnish the wooden parts. You supply him with the brush and show him how to varnish. You also supply verbal encouragement along the way. Was he a co-laborer?

Definitely. And we are co-laborers with Christ on his mission. There’s no doubt about that. The distinction I make is that the word ‘help’ implies an ‘add to’ factor. Eventually my sons will be as capable as me–possibly more. Also as I weaken or my to do list extends beyond my reach their ability will add to mine. This is not the case with God. His infinite power implies our participation has no ‘add to’ on his part. His grace is perfectly sufficient. So while I revel in cooperating with his grace, I have no delusions about helping.

 

[Duane1966]

Definitely. And we are co-laborers with Christ on his mission. There’s no doubt about that. The distinction I make is that the word ‘help’ implies an ‘add to’ factor. Eventually my sons will be as capable as me–possibly more. Also as I weaken or my to do list extends beyond my reach their ability will add to mine. This is not the case with God. His infinite power implies our participation has no ‘add to’ on his part. His grace is perfectly sufficient. So while I revel in cooperating with his grace, I have no delusions about helping.

We most definitely can add. God works through us mere mortals to bring salvation to the people we meet. We can either cooperate in God’s labor, or not. If we cooperate, their can be no doubt that we are helping. When the Apostles went forth teaching everything that He had commanded them, were they not helping in salvation? Or in the Parable of the Three Servants. Did not the two servants who through their labors "add" to the master’s wealth?

Case in point. Let’s say I am an evil person. In an encounter with you, you get me to see the error of my ways, and the truth of Christ. I repent, and become an on fire witness for Christ. Have you not just helped in my salvation?

 

[Michael68]

Well…no God doesn’t need us, but… in 1 Cor 3, Paul wrote we are co-laborers.

In Acts 9, he was also deemed the Lord’s chosen instrument.

I feel I’m a chosen instrument by God to lead our teen choir as an example

 

[Michael68]

As if you, being mortal, could ever “help” God–the arrogance!

Isaia 14
12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, who didst rise in the morning? how art thou fallen to the earth, that didst wound the nations?
13 And thou saidst in thy heart: I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God, I will sit in the mountain of the covenant, in the sides of the north.
14 I will ascend above the height of the clouds, I will be like the most High.

I’m sorry if you got that impression. I’m not an arrogant man. I am a grateful man for God loving me enough to allow me to “help” Him. I do not deserve this Love you understand. My response to this Love is to give back to God the time, talent and treasure that He gave me to serve man as best I can

 

[Mammoths]

We most definitely can add. God works through us mere mortals to bring salvation to the people we meet. We can either cooperate in God’s labor, or not. If we cooperate, their can be no doubt that we are helping. When the Apostles went forth teaching everything that He had commanded them, were they not helping in salvation? Or in the Parable of the Three Servants. Did not the two servants who through their labors "add" to the master’s wealth?

Case in point. Let’s say I am an evil person. In an encounter with you, you get me to see the error of my ways, and the truth of Christ. I repent, and become an on fire witness for Christ. Have you not just helped in my salvation?

In that case I may have helped you but not God. God actually restricted himself to make place for me in that case. He could have persuaded you just as well as me and it would have cost him no more effort or sacrifice than he has already paid.

 

[Mammoths]

I’m sorry if you got that impression. I’m not an arrogant man. I am a grateful man for God loving me enough to allow me to “help” Him. I do not deserve this Love you understand. My response to this Love is to give back to God the time, talent and treasure that He gave me to serve man as best I can

And neither was Peter God’s enemy we He said, “Get behind me Satan.” But I wanted to to draw in strong terms the silliness in thinking that serving God is helping him. And for the record, Protestant doctrines call is to serve God. “We are His workmanship created in Christ Jesus for good works which God prepared in advance for us to do.” But also we don’t make God bigger faster stronger smarter or more effective by our works. And we don’t make his work on us better by human effort. We participate, we don’t help.

 

[Duane1966]

In that case I may have helped you but not God. God actually restricted himself to make place for me in that case. He could have persuaded you just as well as me and it would have cost him no more effort or sacrifice than he has already paid.

Sure He restricted Himself, but in restricting Himself, He allowed you to add to His work, **and to help Him by helping me. This adding in no way diminishes His work. **There is no getting around the fact that God wants us to share in His work of redemption. Does He ever need anything from us? No. In fact He could have redeemed us a multitude of ways that never required Him to pay a sacrifice of any kind. But this is the way He chose.

Once again I ask you, when the Apostles went forth teaching everything that He had commanded them, were they not helping in His work of salvation?