Some Christians really disappoint me

[triumphguy]

I suppose people may really hurt us but we have to forgive and love. And not let that ruin us and make us become bitter. It can just hurt because I had hope that people in the Church would be different to non Church people. Actually to be honest it seems that I have been less hurt by secular non Christian people

Possibly because you haven’t chosen to make yourself as vulnerable to them.

And sometimes even though we are hurt by what people say or do it doesn’t make us the victim and them the bad guy.

For instance a person applying to a convent might be turned down. They might be very upset and hurt, but the reason why they were turned down might be entirely valid, and so the whole episode might be a chance for some real growth to take place.

 

[Andre1000]

I am sometimes mean to people without to want it.

 

[englishredrose]

Is it more to do with that people want Christians to be perfect and the more Christian you are, by that I mean by having a title of priest or lay reader etc means that you have to be even more perfect than the day to day committed Christian?

Lots of people make that mistake and so you will not be alone in your thinking. But Priests will never be any more perfect than we are not. They are human, just like the rest of us. Some of them good listeners and some of them who seem to be good at getting it all wrong. They are just like us, but Ordained. Thats all.

So when a Christian is disappointing us for being a Christian I think we need to take a good look at ourselves and question what it is we are expecting from that Christian? Whether its divisions within the Church or your local church or just that some of us, well most of us, really don’t come up to scratch.

Christian does not mean, one has to be good. Christian means one believes in Jesus Christ. We would hope our Priests reach acertain theological stance and have people skills but really, they can be as bad as we are at not being good. We would want our priests to believe in Jesus Christ as we do but that is the only real requirement of being a Christian. Someone somewhere has decided that the Bible should be our kind of self help book for Christians but there isn’t anything in it about how good we have to be. Its about trying but trying for whom? Trying for each other more than anything. But so when we think that Christians, well some Christians disappoint us - well stop judging them and look at us in our own mirrors and realise there is no law even in the Bible about having to be good and perfect. God recognises our failings over and over and over again. Its about time we start to recognise our failings rather than judging.

peace:thumbsup:
xxx

 

[PazzoGrande]

Unfortunately this has been a problem in the Church ever since Judas betrayed Jesus. Outside of Jesus and His Mother, who never committed any sin, we have all fallen short of God’s expectations. Thank God for the Sacrament of Penance!

Don’t forget, on Good Friday, eleven of the Apostles didn’t even show up.

Our first leaders – who Jesus picked Himself – even failed us on the most important weekend in history. Does it make the Church false? No.

Americans can be patriotic, even though historically there was a lot of corruption. Minorities were oppressed, unnecessary wars were started, Native Americans were intentionally given disease, rich white guys actually owned poor black guys and women couldn’t even vote for most of American history. Yet people still manage to be patriotic.

When we see some of our leaders do wrong, it is an opportunity for us to be right. God put a flame in you and it’s for you to dispel the darkness.

If you have EWTN, throughout the month they’ve been showing an old miniseries on Teresa of Avila. She wanted to reform her order and had to put up with a ton of people who tried to get in her way, even friars who wanted to kill her. And looked what happened there – she earned her halo.

That being said, the Church really isn’t as corrupt as people perceive it. The “politics” of it all is frequently very reasonable, the product of experience and prudence. The British and American cultures historically had been very unfairly biased against the Catholic Church, and even churchgoing American Catholics fall into that category of unfair prejudgments and seeing things in a biased negative light. It’s extremely common.

As someone who studied both Religion and Political Science in college, I learnt to appreciate the way the Church handles things. Pick up a copy of John Allen’s book All the Pope’s Men. It is a good start to understanding how things that are perceived as Church leaders imposing themselves are really just sensible decision-making.

There are still priests here and there who I don’t like, but most are good men, even those who would be given a bad rap in the media.

 

[PazzoGrande]

Oh and let me add one thing: We define ourselves by our heroes.

Christianity isn’t John Geoghan. It’s John Paul II. Both were priests, but one molested kids while the other one brought kids together in faith.

 

[Tigg]

This reminds me of a story a former pastor told us during a homily. There was a daily communicant at his church known for her acerbic personality and biting comments. Such an unpleasant person who never had a good thing to say. People avoided even saying good morning to her, and yet she was there every day at Mass. Of course, the rash judgments began and whispers of “how can she go to Communion every day when she is so hateful” was heard.

Our pastor, in reply said to them, “Just think how bad she would be if she didn’t go to daily Mass!!”

We are all a work in progress and do well to focus on what’s inside!

 

[englishredrose]

This reminds me of a story a former pastor told us during a homily. There was a daily communicant at his church known for her acerbic personality and biting comments. Such an unpleasant person who never had a good thing to say. People avoided even saying good morning to her, and yet she was there every day at Mass. Of course, the rash judgments began and whispers of “how can she go to Communion every day when she is so hateful” was heard.

Our pastor, in reply said to them, “Just think how bad she would be if she didn’t go to daily Mass!!”
/QUOTE]

Okay, so we have all taken this approach at some point in our lives to help us over the sins of another for our own self esteem. But really, is this the approach we should really be seriously taking about each other at church? We shouldn’t be judging sins of others at Communion. We really shouldn’t be. If we are doing this about each other then where is the Love of God in our own daily worship with Him? Can we not get beyond the sins of each other and trust in God and show our Love of God because we do trust in God. Is it all about sins to you?

 

[adv]

I suppose people may really hurt us but we have to forgive and love. And not let that ruin us and make us become bitter. It can just hurt because I had hope that people in the Church would be different to non Church people. Actually to be honest it seems that I have been less hurt by secular non Christian people

We are all sinners. We are all striving for holiness but we fail time and time again. We need to be forgiving of others like our Father in heaven. How many times has he forgiven us? That’s how we have treat everyone whether they go to church or not. If I want to be forgiven I have to forgive. Church people are human and sinners. I think they are more aware of it and know they need God so at least they are on the right path. It just takes alot of work to be perfect.

 

[Tigg]

Tigg;9942379:

This reminds me of a story a former pastor told us during a homily. There was a daily communicant at his church known for her acerbic personality and biting comments. Such an unpleasant person who never had a good thing to say. People avoided even saying good morning to her, and yet she was there every day at Mass. Of course, the rash judgments began and whispers of “how can she go to Communion every day when she is so hateful” was heard.

Our pastor, in reply said to them, “Just think how bad she would be if she didn’t go to daily Mass!!”
/QUOTE]

Okay, so we have all taken this approach at some point in our lives to help us over the sins of another for our own self esteem. But really, is this the approach we should really be seriously taking about each other at church?

Of course not and the entire point of the story was supposed to illustrate that and the affect of God’s grace.

 

[ilySHJ]

I suppose people may really hurt us but we have to forgive and love. And not let that ruin us and make us become bitter. It can just hurt because I had hope that people in the Church would be different to non Church people. Actually to be honest it seems that I have been less hurt by secular non Christian people

You’re so right, and it hurts so much more when it comes from those who are kneeling beside us and praying with us. As one person above observes, we make ourselves vulnerable.

Perhaps you can distance yourself from the hurtful people. Focus on your prayerlife. Tune them out, and try not to replay moments - it only gives them a chance to hurt you again.

Pray for God’s protection. Sometimes very bad people gravitate to religious settings because they find easy targets to manipulate.

That you have higher expectations of your fellow Catholics is a good thing. I’ll pray for you. And pray also for you to meet some of the good guys.

 

[Christine85]

You’re so right, and it hurts so much more when it comes from those who are kneeling beside us and praying with us. As one person above observes, we make ourselves vulnerable.

Perhaps you can distance yourself from the hurtful people. Focus on your prayerlife. Tune them out, and try not to replay moments - it only gives them a chance to hurt you again.

Pray for God’s protection. Sometimes very bad people gravitate to religious settings because they find easy targets to manipulate.

That you have higher expectations of your fellow Catholics is a good thing. I’ll pray for you. And pray also for you to meet some of the good guys.

Thankyou

 

[Erick_Ybarra]

I am trying to understand better the Catholic way of practicing Christianity.

What would we say about the Church Discipline process outlined in Matthew 18?

Jesus said that if someone sins against you, go to that person 1 on 1, and if they repent, you have won your brother. But if he fails to repent, take 2 or 3, that every word might be established. And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the Church. And if he refuses even then to listen to the church, let him be to you as a heathen and a tax collector.

It seems that Jesus really does have a plan for dealing with sin in His body. Remember the wisdom of Paul, a little leaven leavens the whole lump, therefore purge out the evil man from among you (1 Corinthians 5). In our modern culture, we think the most loving thing to do for someone is simply to ignore their faults. However, in the wisdom of Jesus, this is only harming them. For notice how Jesus says “If they repent, you have won your brother”, meaning that the brother has in some sense fallen away from holiness. And this process goes until the church has to tell him/her to repent. And if he/she refuses to repent, they are to be physically removed totally from the fellowship of Christ’s church.

In this wisdom, when it is practiced faithfully, maintains a high purity in the Church in both life and doctrine. I have seen it first hand for years and years.

But my question to Catholics is why does the Church not practice discipline? It would seem as though the Catholic teaching on merits and works for salvation would be more strict on the lives of it’s members than Protestants who supposedly believe that faith alone saves us.

 

[CB_Catholic]

I am trying to understand better the Catholic way of practicing Christianity.

What would we say about the Church Discipline process outlined in Matthew 18?

Jesus said that if someone sins against you, go to that person 1 on 1, and if they repent, you have won your brother. But if he fails to repent, take 2 or 3, that every word might be established. And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the Church. And if he refuses even then to listen to the church, let him be to you as a heathen and a tax collector.

It seems that Jesus really does have a plan for dealing with sin in His body. Remember the wisdom of Paul, a little leaven leavens the whole lump, therefore purge out the evil man from among you (1 Corinthians 5). In our modern culture, we think the most loving thing to do for someone is simply to ignore their faults. However, in the wisdom of Jesus, this is only harming them. For notice how Jesus says “If they repent, you have won your brother”, meaning that the brother has in some sense fallen away from holiness. And this process goes until the church has to tell him/her to repent. And if he/she refuses to repent, they are to be physically removed totally from the fellowship of Christ’s church.

In this wisdom, when it is practiced faithfully, maintains a high purity in the Church in both life and doctrine. I have seen it first hand for years and years.

But my question to Catholics is why does the Church not practice discipline? It would seem as though the Catholic teaching on merits and works for salvation would be more strict on the lives of it’s members than Protestants who supposedly believe that faith alone saves us.

Go back to the beginning and read the OP’s first few posts. There was never any mention of anyone sinning. She is hurt because she feels some people aren’t “good”-yes, she used that word, or they have disappointed her as Christians. She used disappointed too. We are dealing here with someone’s perceptions of other people’s behavior or attitude, or disposition–whatever- that caused her to have hurt feelings. But objectively, what did they actually do that was sinful? Are her perceptions really true, or is she being judgmental of people (not their actions, because she didn’t mention any)? We cannot say, we don’t have the facts. This is entirely different than the Biblical situation you described, which, BTW, Catholics are quite familiar with.

I think, sir, that the one who needs to examine themselves might be you, who have jumped to a rash conclusion about something from this all–that the Church does not practice discipline. There is no evidence here that any discipline needs to applied. There is no evidence of any serious sin on anyone’s part. What exactly would you drag someone before Church leaders for given what is presented by the OP?

 

[Agatha813]

There are disappointing people out there, but it’s not really the church’s fault there are people like this. The church welcomes everyone, just as you should. I know it’s difficult, but turning the other cheek and loving others as we love ourselves is the right way to live.

 

[Tigg]

There are disappointing people out there, but it’s not really the church’s fault there are people like this. The church welcomes everyone, just as you should. I know it’s difficult, but turning the other cheek and loving others as we love ourselves is the right way to live.

For some, unfortunately, even loving oneself, is a challenge!

 

[Christine85]

What I was disappointed in was some people’s lack of compassion and love. I don’t think noticing that is being judgmental it’s simply stating the facts

 

[Christine85]

Go back to the beginning and read the OP’s first few posts. There was never any mention of anyone sinning. She is hurt because she feels some people aren’t “good”-yes, she used that word, or they have disappointed her as Christians. She used disappointed too. We are dealing here with someone’s perceptions of other people’s behavior or attitude, or disposition–whatever- that caused her to have hurt feelings. But objectively, what did they actually do that was sinful? Are her perceptions really true, or is she being judgmental of people (not their actions, because she didn’t mention any)? We cannot say, we don’t have the facts. This is entirely different than the Biblical situation you described, which, BTW, Catholics are quite familiar with.

I think, sir, that the one who needs to examine themselves might be you, who have jumped to a rash conclusion about something from this all–that the Church does not practice discipline. There is no evidence here that any discipline needs to applied. There is no evidence of any serious sin on anyone’s part. What exactly would you drag someone before Church leaders for given what is presented by the OP?

You’re twisting my words I said I would expect they would be good Christians but they turn out to be mean. I don’t know if the people are sinning but my whole point is that it disappointed me because I expected more from these people. I really don’t appreciate you
calling me judgmental. Obviously you still don’t get that people have been uncompassionate towards me those are the actions I stated earlier that are certain circumstances. Yes in the end God will judge but surely I’m not being judgmental for noting my disappointment and concern

 

[CB_Catholic]

You’re twisting my words I said I would expect they would be good Christians but they turn out to be mean. I don’t know if the people are sinning but my whole point is that it disappointed me because I expected more from these people. I really don’t appreciate you
calling me judgmental. Obviously you still don’t get that people have been uncompassionate towards me those are the actions I stated earlier that are certain circumstances. Yes in the end God will judge but surely I’m not being judgmental for noting my disappointment and concern

Now hold on here…

You need to read more carefully and pay more attention here. I did not call you judgmental. I said that we cannot know if you are being judgmental or if your perceptions are true, because we don’t have the facts of what people said or did to you, which is quite the opposite of me accusing you of being judgmental. I cannot know that, because I don’t know what actually happened. The poster took your posts and interpreted them somehow as people having sinned against you and then extrapolated from that that the Catholic Church doesn’t have any disciplinary procedures. How he got that from your post is beyond me, because you never accused anyone of sinning.

Now go back and reread the post carefully. People are not out to accuse you of anything, nor are they saying they don’t believe you. Most of the posters are merely saying that we weren’t there, we have no facts, how can we advise you on what happened, we can only show you how we react when people seemingly act non-Christian to us, and are disappointed and hurt.

 

[Christine85]

I don’t appreciate you even insinuating I may be being judgmental. I just don’t appreciate that like you said you were not there, therefore I dont think its appropriate you suggest I may have been judgemental. I’ve had enough of this discussion I did not have a problem with any posts until you suggested I may have been judgemental . Think about it. I came on to start the thread because I was disappointed in actual behavior and no I was not being judgemental. That’s a pretty harsh word to throw around. You wrote quote -" or is she being judgemental." meaning you thought that was a possibility so in my books saying that is almost as bad as outright calling someone judgemental. There is no reason to say I am needing to re read because it shown what you posted. Whatever I’m over it. But you should seriously choose your words more carefully.End of story

 

[Dale_M]

Can anyone else here relate ?

Oh, heck yes.

There has been corruption in the Church for 2000 years. St. Paul described it, as did many Church Fathers. Medieval writers sometimes complained about it. Various reform movements sprouted up during those years, and lets not forget that the Reformation was spurred by some legitimate complaints.

The Church is made up of humans, and we have a fallen nature. We do our best, or at least we should, but we are bound to fail. Some people’s failings are more noticeable or more significant than others. But the Church endures despite it all.