Some clarifications on Sola Scriptura

[benhur]

Your characterization of “all who would follow” is too broad.

He will pour out His Spirit upon all flesh is pretty broad also. His Spirit guides and brings Truth to remembrance, not just to presbyters or even presbyters with supposed proper succession.

I am not really sure what this means. “proportionally appropriatae”? His promise was to lead the Church into “ALL truth”, not just a portion.

The truth is not portioned but the giftings and level of guidance and remembrance and it’s graces are given to each of us according to His good pleasure. An usher is graced accordingly as is a teacher as is a pastor etc… .

Clearly though, many ecclesial communities have retained significant parts of the Apostolic faith, and to that extent, they can be said to be in unity with the successor of Peter and the other Apostles and Prophets that are the foundation stones of the Church. We can all receive the benefits of the promise if we are in unity with those to whom the promise is made.

yes it is a unity of faith we seek which should make us united in faith in the proper role of offices and authority.

It is not a dichotomy, the relationship f the individual to the Church. We are made members of His One Body at baptism.

Then why is guidance of HS and leading into truth and remembrance of said to be for apostles and successors exclusively, that is for the institution of the church heirarchy…

Or, as you say, each one responds to the call of the HS to find one’s gift and bring it to bear upon the Church and is animated by the HS can benefit to God’s promises to the Church.

Yes but does the Spirit animate remebrance of truths and leading into truth just for heirarchy ?

 

[benhur]

No. I cannot accept it because of my view of God, his nature, and His promises. Since He is Head of the Church, and the HS is the Soul of the Church, these divine elements prevent her from error.

So if I promise to teach you all about algebra I am really promising you will not make a mistake and will never need correction with it ?

Sin does not cause one to be “unborn again”. On the contrary, ,the last state of that person is worse than the first, since they have been sealed with the Spirit.

Can there be anything worse than not being born again

One does not cease to be His child just because one rejects one’s birthright, just as the Prodigal son di

Not sure if this is apples to apples. Not sure Prodigal is born again, born of spirit till he repents…

I think that Protestants have difficulty understanding the Church as Holy is because they have inherited a deficient concept of the Church.

Not sure if it is holy vs unholy but ideal vs reality , even of tares being in with wheat,and false prophets.
I

ndeed, she is a living organism, ,as Scripture states. Those members of her that fall into sin are diseased parts of the organism, and thus negatively impact the health of the whole. But no amount of the sins of man can nullify the perfection of God. He said He would be with us until the end of the Age, and we believe Him.

Yes but how ? Why do you insist on perfection on one end and disease on the other ? I believe in both also just differently.

 

[spina1953]

Jesus promised that He would guide the Church to all truth and from error. That being said, It is not the Church that fails or is in sin but people. It is people in the Church who sin or go astray from the truth ore distort it, not the Church. No Church has in it people who are always free from sin, all are sinners and the struggle is to free ourselves from sin by embracing the truth and live according to the truth Christ passed on to us from the Apostles on down to the present time and so far the CC has always taught and passed on the truth even though there have been those who did not live by it.

 

[guanophore]

He will pour out His Spirit upon all flesh is pretty broad also. His Spirit guides and brings Truth to remembrance, not just to presbyters or even presbyters with supposed proper succession.

Indeed, and as a member of the Charismatic Renewal you will certainly get no argument from me on this point! However, these are two forms of leadership that are meant to work in harmony with one another. As we see in the early church, the Apostles and prophets were the foundation (together). Jesus created and authorative church appointed individual persons to shepherd and guide her. Those he has gifted with the tasks of shepherding the flock are responsible and authorized.

Our God is a God of order, and the flow of the Holy Spirit is not contrary to the structure Jesus has established. And more importanty the Spirit does not lead in a contradictory fashion to what He has already revealed. The flow of the Spirit must be subject to the authority he has appointed. He is perfectly able to work within that to reveal His will. One example of this is the pouring of the Spirit upon the house of Cornelius, to demonstrate to Peter that the Gentiles were to be brought into the Church.

The truth is not portioned but the giftings and level of guidance and remembrance and it’s graces are given to each of us according to His good pleasure. An usher is graced accordingly as is a teacher as is a pastor etc…

Yes, to each is given a measure of the Spirit to the common good. I think a case can be made that a person who responds to gifts will receive more, but that is another discussion. Everyone has different roles, but all are equal in dignity. Some have authority to shepherd the flock, and others do not. Some have the flame of the Spirit very active within them, and some do not. Each one is of value in the Body.

yes it is a unity of faith we seek  which should make us united in faith in the proper role of offices and authority.

Unity occurs with adherance to the Truth. To the extent that each one is in unity with the Head, and the Truth that has been revealed, then unity will exist in the Body.

Then why is guidance of HS and leading into truth and remembrance of said to be for apostles and successors exclusively, that is for the institution of the church heirarchy… Yes but does the Spirit animate remebrance of truths and leading into truth just for heirarchy ?

It is not, but it is the successors who are specially charged with the duty as custodians of the faith, and to transmit that faith to faithful men who are able to teach others also. Each of us is charged to keep that which has been entrusted to us (the deposit of faith) but certain persons are called especially to minister to the flock. To these is given Apostolic authority.

 

[guanophore]

So if I promise to teach you all about algebra I am really promising you will not make a mistake and will never need correction with it ?

Of course not, but He promised to lead His fledgling Church into “all Truth”. This is not just about doctrine, but about how to live. He is able, as He demonstrates in the letters of Revelation, to correct behavior. Men are also in need of reform, but the teachings of Christ are not.

Can there be anything worse than not being born again

Absolutely. One who is born again then rejects the Spirit is in a worse state than the first.

Not sure if this is apples to apples. Not sure Prodigal is born again, born of spirit till he repents…

Nothing can separate us from His love, and He loves us enough to allow us to walk away from Him if we choose. We can be in right relationship to Him, then abandon it. We are made in the image and likeness of God, and so, can choose.

Not sure if it is holy vs unholy but ideal vs reality , even of tares being in with wheat,and false prophets.

This is exactly my point. The Church is Holy because of her divine elements. During the Reformation, the definition of “church” was changed to be “the body of believers on earth”. This excludes the saints who have gone on before us (likley removed to discourage the Catholic practice of prayers) and the 'church" beccame a headless body, where Christ was some sort of absent landlord. If He is head of the Church, then the Church is Holy. If the Body is taken apart from the Head, then the divine elements that sanctify her are cut off.

Yes, there are tares amidst the wheat, and false teachers. The Church is incarnational, with both human and divine natures. The human elements of the Church are prone to sickness and sin, and fall short of the glory of God. But, just as Jesus becoming hungry, tired, and suffering (even unto death) the human nature of the Church does not erase or invalidate the divine.

IYes but how ? Why do you insist on perfection on one end and disease on the other ? I believe in both also just differently.

He is alive and well in the Church within the structure that He created to govern her until the end of the age. Just as Jesus was perfectly divine though He was still nailed to the cross, the Church remains divine even through the scourge of her human members who have fallen. His promise to remain with her until the end of the age is where we put our faith, not in those who fall short of His plan.

 

[benhur]

Jesus promised that He would guide the Church to all truth and from error.

 

[guanophore]

spina1953;12444219:

yes to truth but where does he say there will never be error ?

How can there be “all Truth” when there is error?

How can He be Head of the church, and with us till the end of the age, and still allow His Holy Bride to fall into error?

How will anything prevent souls from passing through the gates of hell if error is taught.

 

[spina1953]

spina1953;12444219:

yes to truth but where does he say there will never be error ?

I think you missed the point which was the Church does not err but that those within the Church can certainly sin

 

[spina1953]

benhur;12448011:

How can there be “all Truth” when there is error?

How can He be Head of the church, and with us till the end of the age, and still allow His Holy Bride to fall into error?

How will anything prevent souls from passing through the gates of hell if error is taught.

You have missed the point the Church is free from error but those within the Church can certainly sin and distort truth from what the CC teaches.

 

[benhur]

]Indeed, and as a member of the Charismatic Renewal you will certainly get no argument from me on this point!

Cool !

Our God is a God of order, and the flow of the Holy Spirit is not contrary to the structure Jesus has established.

Actually the reverse is more paramount. Leaders must be in the Spirit.

The flow of the Spirit must be subject to the authority he has appointed.

Again the reverse is paramount. The Jerusalem council showed this .The leaders had to get with the "program’’, God’s program.

One example of this is the pouring of the Spirit upon the house of Cornelius, to demonstrate to Peter that the Gentiles were to be brought into the Church.

Right. Peter had to carry out and see and uphold the Lord’s program for the gentiles.

It is not, but it is the successors who are specially charged with the duty as custodians of the faith, and to transmit that faith to faithful men who are able to teach others also. Each of us is charged to keep that which has been entrusted to us (the deposit of faith) but certain persons are called especially to minister to the flock. To these is given Apostolic authority.

Agree with this just not sure what you mean by last sentence. Succession and the latter is the debate . But we all agree the apostles ordained presbyters /elders/bishops. The first ordained were custodians, disciples of apostles. Interpretation of scripture, even tradition was not their duty. They were “repeaters”, not decipherers, if I recall a former teacher correctly.

 

[benhur]

I think you missed the point which was the Church does not err but that those within the Church can certainly sin

Yes, totally got that thanks. But my question is where does Jesus say you will be free from error in relation to leading into Truth ?

 

[benhur]

How can there be “all Truth” when there is error?

How can He be Head of the church, and with us till the end of the age, and still allow His Holy Bride to fall into error?

How will anything prevent souls from passing through the gates of hell if error is taught.

Has the Lord guided you into error ? Is He guiding unto all Truth ? Was OT Israel guided unto all Truth, enough to keep all promises and deliver the Messiah right on time ?
Did israel have error ? Yes, yet did not tinge perfect Shepherding.

 

[benhur]

Of course not, but He promised to lead His fledgling Church into “all Truth”.

Again, my algebra teacher taught me all I needed to know, but i still had dips in the road, as in error, that was eventually overcome.

He is able, as He demonstrates in the letters of Revelation, to correct behavior. Men are also in need of reform, but the teachings of Christ are not.

Taking on bad doctrine is bad behavior, which was also attempted to be corrected by the Lord in Rev. church letters.

 

[benhur]

Absolutely. One who is born again then rejects the Spirit is in a worse state than the first.
Nothing can separate us from His love, and He loves us enough to allow us to walk away from Him if we choose. We can be in right relationship to Him, then abandon it. We are made in the image and likeness of God, and so, can choose.

Whole other topic.Not sure your quote applies as it was given for one whom had an evil spirit cast out. But not sure. Don’t think the prodigal was born again. As a circumcised Jew he was heir to the Promises and in the right “faith” . He was not a “gentile”. Jesus was speaking to Jews, Jews outwardly but not inwardly, like Nicodemus and the Prodigal , and all need to be born of the Spirit , to be born again. But as the apostles said, the circumcision availed little, even though there was apparent right relationship/religion at least in ritual/even doctrine etc…

 

[benhur]

During the Reformation, the definition of “church” was changed to be “the body of believers on earth”.

Did not know this. Church by definition is “the called out ones” and for sure there are called out ones in heaven. I think reformation shifted emphasis away from a particular institution, even a “set of doctrines/tradition” back to the called out ones.

the 'church" became a headless body, where Christ was some sort of absent landlord

. Funny, but some here can give you a list of reformed churches and their supposed "head’’/founder. Actually, the reformers wanted the the real Landlord to be a little more active, that the need for a pope denotes an absentee Landlord.

If He is head of the Church, then the Church is Holy.

All agree except that some insinuate you have a headless body without a pope.

Yes, there are tares amidst the wheat, and false teachers. The Church is incarnational, with both human and divine natures. The human elements of the Church are prone to sickness and sin, and fall short of the glory of God. But, just as Jesus becoming hungry, tired, and suffering (even unto death) the human nature of the Church does not erase or invalidate the divine.

Good we agree on much. We differ on just how we (church) are/is divine.

 

[spina1953]

Yes, totally got that thanks. But my question is where does Jesus say you will be free from error in relation to leading into Truth ?

Hi Benhur: Jesus never said that one will be free from all error. Only that he will lead all to truth. He even said that he would send the Holy Spirit to guide to the truth but remember anyone can refuse to accept the truth even when it stares one in the face. One can either accept the truth or not, why? because one has free will to choose. if the truth was so easy to accept everyone would of course accept it but in reality truth is not easy to accept and many have different idea’s about what they thing truth is.

 

[guanophore]

Actually the reverse is more paramount. Leaders must be in the Spirit. Again the reverse is paramount.

Fortunately for all of us, this is not the case. Jesus promise that the Church will be guided into “all Truth” is not dependent upon fallible man, but upon His infallible promise. God is able to work thruogh the unholy, just as the High Priest prophesied the need for the death of Christ for the whole people, a leader can work the will of God even when they are not “in the Spirit”.

The Apostles taught that all leadership is appointed by God, and even the corrupt leadership will be used by God to fulfill His plans.

The Jerusalem council showed this .The leaders had to get with the "program’’, God’s program. Right. Peter had to carry out and see and uphold the Lord’s program for the gentiles.

As the vicar of Christ is the servant of the Sacred Tradition and the Sacred Scriptures. The Jerusalem council is the example of how the Church is infallible because of her divine elements. In the letter, James writes “it seemed right to the Holy Spirit and to us”. The HS cannot err, so decisions made this way are infallible.

Agree with this just not sure what you mean by last sentence. Succession and the latter is the debate . But we all agree the apostles ordained presbyters /elders/bishops.

Authority is passed through the laying on of hands (Holy Orders). This is why Paul warns Timothy not to do so in haste. Those appointed with authority are entrusted with the Apostolic duty to feed and care for the flock.

The first ordained were custodians, disciples of apostles. Interpretation of scripture, even tradition was not their duty. They were “repeaters”, not decipherers, if I recall a former teacher correctly.

Yes, the deposit of faith was full and complete with the death of the last Apostle. It is the duty of the successors to guard what has been entrusted to them.

But new challenges to the Church have required them to apply the Apostolic faith to the modern era. Whenever heresies arose, it was necessary to develop the deposit of faith and apply it to the current need. Thus, we have the hypostatic union, the Trinity, the canon, the Theotokos, Sunday observance, etc, etc.

 

[benhur]

Hi Benhur: Jesus never said that one will be free from all error. Only that he will lead all to truth. He even said that he would send the Holy Spirit to guide to the truth but remember anyone can refuse to accept the truth even when it stares one in the face. One can either accept the truth or not, why? because one has free will to choose. if the truth was so easy to accept everyone would of course accept it but in reality truth is not easy to accept and many have different idea’s about what they thing truth is.

Thanks. Of course it applies to individual, but it also applies to “church”.

 

[spina1953]

Thanks. Of course it applies to individual, but it also applies to “church”.

Hi Benhur" Yes of course, but the Church is made up of the individual.

 

[benhur]

Fortunately for all of us, this is not the case. Jesus promise that the Church will be guided into “all Truth” is not dependent upon fallible man,

Being in the Spirit (even for a leader) is not a man thing. It is definitely by His grace and promise.

God is able to work thruogh the unholy, just as the High Priest prophesied the need for the death of Christ for the whole people, a leader can work the will of God even when they are not “in the Spirit”.

The institution (Sanhedrin), the "nation’’ (Israel) , like a church, was in error, not just the high priest. Is that what you want to say, that the church can be wrong, dead wrong, yet to God’s glory ?..But i know what you mean for the Lord did say the the unrighteous can behold/be righteous.

The Apostles taught that all leadership is appointed by God, and even the corrupt leadership will be used by God to fulfill His plans.

Not sure where they taught this. I thought they warned of false teachers and wolves . maybe you speak of civil authorities etc.

The Jerusalem council is the example of how the Church is infallible because of her divine elements. In the letter, James writes “it seemed right to the Holy Spirit and to us”.

Well the word is "us’’. You see divine elements, and that may be. I see what James said is the “us” is ,* “apostles, elders, and brethren” .*

Authority is passed through the laying on of hands (Holy Orders).

Yes, somewhat,as far as presbyters.

This is why Paul warns Timothy not to do so in haste.

may have nothing to do with ordination, but receiving back a fallen brother. May also mean do not use force.